A couple home water questions (filter and heat)

[velillen]

So i bought a home back in August. It has a shared well (just me an my neighbor). One of the things I noticed is if I let dishes air dry or just sit with with water in them that they get a sort of white "powder" to them. Which a bit of research has lead me to believe it is just calcium. not to worried about it but thought i'd toss it out there.

The first issue is just the water taste. Really i cant stand it. it is just me living here so the water "sits" in the pipes for awhile with no use. Which leads to it tasting...rather bad if i dont then let the water run for a minute or two. it honestly is bad enough that just making coffee without letting it run made the coffee taste horrible as well. but again let it run and then do it and it was just fine. I got a brita "dispenser" unit which i love. but it only holds ~ 1 gallon which isnt really enough for me. Just in the morning i use it for my coffee and then for water to take to work. That then requires me to refill it. Just an annoyance more than anything which has led me to wanting a filter unit on the sink itself. But i don't want one of the brita or pur ones that just attach to the faucet.

So anyone have a good recommendation? I only see myself really needing a system that can handle 3-5 gallons a day. is reverse osmosis worth it? or since im content with brita would a filter system like that be good? Any real advantages of one over the other? Im not to keen to spend to much money and would prefer to keep it under 200 bucks



Next up is a simple one. Water heater to the kitchen sink is a good ~50 feet. Same deal with water just sitting. To get hot water at the sink it seriously can take a good 5 minutes of letting the water run. It doesnt take nearly as long with my shower (which is maybe 20 feet away). The water pipes run in my crawl space between the floor joists and have just fiberglass insulation. Any ideas/tips for it to not take so long to get hot water to the kitchen?


TDLR
-Water tastes bad...want undersink filter option but what kind is good?
-Water at kitchen sink is cold and takes long time to get hot...tips to help with that?

 

[the DRIZZLE]

So i bought a home back in August. It has a shared well (just me an my neighbor). One of the things I noticed is if I let dishes air dry or just sit with with water in them that they get a sort of white "powder" to them. Which a bit of research has lead me to believe it is just calcium. not to worried about it but thought i'd toss it out there.

The first issue is just the water taste. Really i cant stand it. it is just me living here so the water "sits" in the pipes for awhile with no use. Which leads to it tasting...rather bad if i dont then let the water run for a minute or two. it honestly is bad enough that just making coffee without letting it run made the coffee taste horrible as well. but again let it run and then do it and it was just fine. I got a brita "dispenser" unit which i love. but it only holds ~ 1 gallon which isnt really enough for me. Just in the morning i use it for my coffee and then for water to take to work. That then requires me to refill it. Just an annoyance more than anything which has led me to wanting a filter unit on the sink itself. But i don't want one of the brita or pur ones that just attach to the faucet.

So anyone have a good recommendation? I only see myself really needing a system that can handle 3-5 gallons a day. is reverse osmosis worth it? or since im content with brita would a filter system like that be good? Any real advantages of one over the other? Im not to keen to spend to much money and would prefer to keep it under 200 bucks



Next up is a simple one. Water heater to the kitchen sink is a good ~50 feet. Same deal with water just sitting. To get hot water at the sink it seriously can take a good 5 minutes of letting the water run. It doesnt take nearly as long with my shower (which is maybe 20 feet away). The water pipes run in my crawl space between the floor joists and have just fiberglass insulation. Any ideas/tips for it to not take so long to get hot water to the kitchen?


TDLR
-Water tastes bad...want undersink filter option but what kind is good?
-Water at kitchen sink is cold and takes long time to get hot...tips to help with that?

I have this. http://www.amazon.com/Watts-500313-...04/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1329538035&sr=8-15

It's not RO but I didn't think I needed RO, it also has a high enough flow rate that it doesn't need a tank. I added a T and connect it to my icemaker as well. It uses standard filters not the fancy proprietary cartridges that some of the other system so the filter changes are much cheaper.

But I have city water so it's a different situation. Personally, if I was drinking well water I'd spend the money and have the water tested so you know what you are dealing with. Once you know you'll be able to decide what's appropriate.

 

[KK]

what if you raise the temp of the water heater up alittle bit. see if that'll cut down on that 5 minutes

 

[vi edit]

The $200 GE under sink RO's you can buy at lowes work ok. Changing filters is a bit of a pain unless they changed the canister styles in the last 10 years. They make a decent cup of water.

Do you know what your electric service is coming into your home? If you've got 100-200 amp service you could grab an on demand unit and stick it near the kitchen sink. Probably can be done for $500 + electric run and plumbing reroute through unit. Insulation probably isn't going to fix it.

 

[velillen]

It's not RO but I didn't think I needed RO, it also has a high enough flow rate that it doesn't need a tank. I added a T and connect it to my icemaker as well. It uses standard filters not the fancy proprietary cartridges that some of the other system so the filter changes are much cheaper.

But I have city water so it's a different situation. Personally, if I was drinking well water I'd spend the money and have the water tested so you know what you are dealing with. Once you know you'll be able to decide what's appropriate.

Thats good to hear that unit works good enough. Theres just so many different brands/models to pick from its been hard ot find one.

The water was tested when i bought the house (requirement) but i never looked into it much since it was listed as safe lol. And now upon quick look i cant find the report either.

what if you raise the temp of the water heater up alittle bit. see if that'll cut down on that 5 minutes

i tried it and it didnt seem to overly help (though i didnt time it either ot be fair) but at the same time running it hotter just meant i was using more gas which is more of a cost to me vs using water which is "free" for me and waiting.

Do you know what your electric service is coming into your home? If you've got 100-200 amp service you could grab an on demand unit and stick it near the kitchen sink. Probably can be done for $500 + electric run and plumbing reroute through unit. Insulation probably isn't going to fix it.

i believe its 200A. least the panel has 4 breakers on top with 200A listed on them. Though the on demand units just arent worth it to me. I can wait the few minutes for hot water in the kitchen....well for now. Once my roommate gets back it wont be as bad either since the water will be used a bit than i just by me

 

[iGas]

Take a sample of the water and have a lab test your water.

It could be simply a low level of hard water (calcium and/or, iron, perhaps manganese, hydrogen sulfide, sulfates, etc...)

An RO may do it, but perhaps you may need to step up to a whole house water softener system, or may need to go as far as a sand filter as well.

You can add a small on demand water heater at the sink if needed, or add a 1/2" PEX loop from under the sink though floor joist to the hot water tank & a cir pump ($100-$150).

 

[JoeMcJoe]

Install a whole house sediment filter, should cost less than $200.
Also install a water softener, should cost less than $1k.

This will fix most of your problems, will also extend the life of your plumbing and water heater.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

I do not drink water. Fish shit in it

 

[Jumpem]

We don't like the taste of the city water in our new house, and just use this:

http://www.brita.com/products/water-dispensers/ultramax/

 

[Greenman]

If the water acquires a bad taste sitting in the pipes, you need ti inspect the plumbing. There could be corrosion or other issues.

The hot water issue is solved by installing a recirculating pump. Home depot sells one that uses the existing pipes as a return line.

 

[DrPizza]

Instead of a circulation pump, why not just install a second, small electric water heater near the kitchen? I used to have a pretty small one in the barn - 10 gallons, maybe? Seems like that would require less effort than putting in a loop and a pump. Edit: and it would probably fit under the sink, though I have no idea if code allows this solution. But it would be far cheaper to install, and an easy do it yourself project to anyone with an IQ above 100. (make sure it's up to code to do this)

Get your water tested, rather than guessing what the problem is. If worse comes to worse, you can replace the entire cold water line to your kitchen with Pex in an hour or so by yourself, for under $75, including the easy shark bite connectors.

 

[BoomerD]

I do not drink water. Fish fornicate in it

Fixed...

 

[DrPizza]

I did a little more looking - it seems that this is exactly what those small heaters are designed for - under sink applications. Some can even just be plugged in if you have an outlet under the sink.

But, get your water tested! Don't forget, in addition to that stuff leaving a residue on your dishes, it's also doing the same to your clothing, and will shorten the life of your clothes. Installing a cartridge whole house filter was pretty simple for me at my house, I just have to replace the cartridge 3-4 times a year. Depending on the results of your water test, you may want to consider a water softening system as well. Personally, I'd avoid the chains that do this (culligan?). I just think they're overpriced for a simple task.

Another edit: at a glance, I'm seeing water softener systems for $350-500. If you can handle simple plumbing, they're pretty easy to install as well.

 

[Imp]

Take a sample of the water and have a lab test your water.
It could be simply a low level of hard water (calcium and/or, iron, perhaps manganese, hydrogen sulfide, sulfates, etc...)

An RO may do it, but perhaps you may need to step up to a whole house water softener system, or may need to go as far as a sand filter as well.

Totally this... Get your water tested. Your state may even do it for free as part of a public health and safety program. As a well user, you're "suppose" to get your water on a regular basis. Obviously, most people (actual studies + "human" common sense) don't do it.

In your case, doesn't sound like you're sick, so that's a good start. For treating water, RO is "teh shit". It should be the best membrane filtration system and is even good for desalination (dissolved particles, not just tiny suspended solids). However, there's a reason not every city by the ocean uses it: RO is very high pressure and energy intensive. Given your needs, that shouldn't be an issue, but it's a lot higher pressure compared to ultra-/micro-filtration.

Ultrafiltration might work for you, but you have to know what that white stuff is first, and if the filter deals with it. IIRC, Brita is a granular filter with taste & odor absorbing media that probably doesn't filter really small things (i.e. your white stuff) out.

So, Reverse-Osmosis is probably the best one-size fits all solution. Get your water tested and talk to a water treatment specialist first.

Bla bla bla, not a professional opinion.


Edit: Something didn't sit well with me concerning "stepping up to water softening" knowing that RO can removal salt. Link says RO removes calcium, sodium, and magnesium, which should mean it softens too?

http://www.bluspr.com/reverse_osmosis_introduction.html

 

[paperfist]

Install a whole house sediment filter, should cost less than $200.
Also install a water softener, should cost less than $1k.

This will fix most of your problems, will also extend the life of your plumbing and water heater.

I wouldn't bother treating water your going to just flush down the drain. I'd just treat the drinking water. Also, having it tested like iGas said is a good idea.

Are you talking a dirt crawl space or just a cavity?

 

[velillen]

Hmmm well looks like first step is to get the water tested again. I know it was tested within 6 months (sinc e i bought in august and part of the rules requires a test on it to be done) I just cant find the report (or even if i kept it).

just for reference the water doesnt stain or leave the powder all the time. Seems more like if i air dry things (happens mostly when i wash out my lunch Tupperware and just leave it on the counter).

as for making me "sick" or anything it hasnt and I have used at least a gallon of the water a day unfiltered (between work water bottle, water drinking at home, and coffee) since the end of August. Still going ot get the water tested but after talking to a guy at work itll probably just come back saying its higher in calcium.

So i guess the filter system will have to be decided on later once i get the water sample results back!

We don't like the taste of the city water in our new house, and just use this:

http://www.brita.com/products/water-dispensers/ultramax/

That is exactly what i currently use. But having to fill it up 1-3 times a day gets annoying 🙂 having two fo them would just take up to much space.

I wouldn't bother treating water your going to just flush down the drain. I'd just treat the drinking water. Also, having it tested like iGas said is a good idea.

Are you talking a dirt crawl space or just a cavity?

The toliet flushing water was a project i found out isnt legal in Washington 🙁 i was going to build a collection setup and use the rain water for toliet flushing water. but alas cant do it from the research on the law that i've seen.

My crawl space is pretty big. Its ~4 feet high and is under the entire house (1500sqft) roughly. Running new piping or whatever would be pretty simple. I've already wired the house with cat6 cable going through the crawl space.




As for the hot water thing...meh sounds like its just a thing i can live with. Was more just hoping for a quick fix but doesnt sound like there is one so o well 🙂

Anyways i suppose thats about it till i can get a water sample tested! (ps any recommendations or just go through whoever the health department recommends?)

 

[Imp]

The toliet flushing water was a project i found out isnt legal in Washington 🙁 i was going to build a collection setup and use the rain water for toliet flushing water. but alas cant do it from the research on the law that i've seen.

Washington state or D.C...?

It's legal in Oregon, California (duh?), pratically every "desert" state, and they should be working on legislation in Illinois too.

 

[velillen]

Washington state or D.C...?

It's legal in Oregon, California (duh?), pratically every "desert" state, and they should be working on legislation in Illinois too.

State. I always hate that every other state you can just say the name( Oregon) but god forbid you say Washington and everyone always asks D.C. or state >.<

And the more i look at it sounds like it is in fact legal. The Department of Ecology (for WA) has a page about it. Though thats a project for down the road, or more specifically when it isnt raining....so ill have a two week window in august 🙂

 

[StarTech]

Since you have easy crawl space access, the simplest solution for the faster hot water service is to install a small manifold by the water heater and direct half inch PEX (?) point to point lines to the faucets you care. Go to the hardware store plumbing section and take a look. You will identify very quick what I am talking about.

I wish it was that easy in my house. I have 3/4" copper from basement to distribution to the bathrooms on the second floor. The flush time plus heating loss of the copper pipe makes it a couple of minutes until I get the shower going in the master.

 

[iGas]

Hmmm well looks like first step is to get the water tested again. I know it was tested within 6 months (sinc e i bought in august and part of the rules requires a test on it to be done) I just cant find the report (or even if i kept it).

just for reference the water doesnt stain or leave the powder all the time. Seems more like if i air dry things (happens mostly when i wash out my lunch Tupperware and just leave it on the counter).

as for making me "sick" or anything it hasnt and I have used at least a gallon of the water a day unfiltered (between work water bottle, water drinking at home, and coffee) since the end of August. Still going ot get the water tested but after talking to a guy at work itll probably just come back saying its higher in calcium.

So i guess the filter system will have to be decided on later once i get the water sample results back!



That is exactly what i currently use. But having to fill it up 1-3 times a day gets annoying 🙂 having two fo them would just take up to much space.



The toliet flushing water was a project i found out isnt legal in Washington 🙁 i was going to build a collection setup and use the rain water for toliet flushing water. but alas cant do it from the research on the law that i've seen.

My crawl space is pretty big. Its ~4 feet high and is under the entire house (1500sqft) roughly. Running new piping or whatever would be pretty simple. I've already wired the house with cat6 cable going through the crawl space.




As for the hot water thing...meh sounds like its just a thing i can live with. Was more just hoping for a quick fix but doesnt sound like there is one so o well 🙂

Anyways i suppose thats about it till i can get a water sample tested! (ps any recommendations or just go through whoever the health department recommends?)

You can have grey water, rain water, and untreated water for use on the lawn and toilet, but the piping must be separated from the potable water system (and it must be mark [purple pain or tape] as non potable water every 20 feet on straight run and with in 5 feet around bend/wall/corner). You will also need a holding tank, a pressure tank, relief valve, pressure pump etc...

RO system can remove low level calcium deposit, however it will shorten the life span of your sediment filters, carbon filter, and membrane.

Cir pump is cheap and use very little power, 1/2" PEX is cheap as well (will need a swing check valve or inline check valve).

 

[velillen]

Cir pump is cheap and use very little power, 1/2" PEX is cheap as well (will need a swing check valve or inline check valve).

Do you have a recommendation on one? (circ pump that is). Only one i can find locally is a Watts. This one specifically. Seems like one of these might be a good option just in the fact itll help with the shower's and all faucets instead of just doing the kitchen faucet.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

By the way i actually went and looked at my water heater and took a picture. The hot water side (or i assume hot water since the copper piping under the rubber insulation was warm) is on the left of the picture. The "cold water" (i assume) is on the right and includes a valve and also a big tank that i believe is a ST-5 Therm-X-Trol Expansion Tank (2.0 Gal Volume). Though i could be wrong. Seems like that would be on the hot water side but im probably wrong there too lol. But i do have an outlet close for adding a circ pump.

Im thinking this is something i'd have to hire a plumber for just to get it done correctly. my experience is pretty limited and i'd rather have it done correctly than just sort of "wingin" it by me on this one.


As for the filter...well nothing really new to report there. here is a picture of the under sink space just for reference. ill wait for the water sample to come back to really decide what to do here. Upper left valve is hot water upper right is cold water and lower left silver valve is for the dishwasher. The white handle valve is the main water cutoff to the whole house.

Anyways just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your ideas/suggestions! Being a home owner sure does drain my bank accounts faster with all my projects i want to do now. Though i do get a fun one in restoring/cleaning up this bad boy 🙂 (more cleaning up...it actually runs just fine at the moment)

 

[Modelworks]

For the water filter, the under sink models work fine for most situations to remove taste or odor issues and the cost is right, under $100 and the cartridges last for months. I use one in an apartment situation to remove the chlorine from the water I use to cook or drink.

The hot water issue you have a couple options, the cheapest is a small water heater under the sink . The best option is a tankless unit but that is also the costliest to install but cheaper to run in the long term .

 

[Squisher]

Re-circulation pumps like those by Grundfos will actually save you money. However, the sink you install the valve in will never give out truly cold water.

http://poweredby.grundfos.com/gb/heating-hot-water/hot-water/

 

[Imp]

You can have grey water, rain water, and untreated water for use on the lawn and toilet, but the piping must be separated from the potable water system (and it must be mark [purple pain or tape] as non potable water every 20 feet on straight run and with in 5 feet around bend/wall/corner). You will also need a holding tank, a pressure tank, relief valve, pressure pump etc...

You should also mark all outlets with a "not for drinking" sign - there's a standard sign lying around. The United Kingdom has a standardized sign, and it's legal there. Yes... even over the toilet, IIRC.

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice (total ass covering mode), but if you only do it for your private residence for private use, clearly mark everything, and do everything "sensible" to protect everyone else, no one "should" bother you.

Well, that's until someone's dog comes and drinks out of your toilet, then licks some toxic garbage, and the dog owner sues you cause you used something that wasn't legal, and they can't sue the garbage owner...

 

[iGas]

Do you have a recommendation on one? (circ pump that is). Only one i can find locally is a Watts. This one specifically. Seems like one of these might be a good option just in the fact itll help with the shower's and all faucets instead of just doing the kitchen faucet.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

By the way i actually went and looked at my water heater and took a picture. The hot water side (or i assume hot water since the copper piping under the rubber insulation was warm) is on the left of the picture. The "cold water" (i assume) is on the right and includes a valve and also a big tank that i believe is a ST-5 Therm-X-Trol Expansion Tank (2.0 Gal Volume). Though i could be wrong. Seems like that would be on the hot water side but im probably wrong there too lol. But i do have an outlet close for adding a circ pump.

Im thinking this is something i'd have to hire a plumber for just to get it done correctly. my experience is pretty limited and i'd rather have it done correctly than just sort of "wingin" it by me on this one.


As for the filter...well nothing really new to report there. here is a picture of the under sink space just for reference. ill wait for the water sample to come back to really decide what to do here. Upper left valve is hot water upper right is cold water and lower left silver valve is for the dishwasher. The white handle valve is the main water cutoff to the whole house.

Anyways just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your ideas/suggestions! Being a home owner sure does drain my bank accounts faster with all my projects i want to do now. Though i do get a fun one in restoring/cleaning up this bad boy 🙂 (more cleaning up...it actually runs just fine at the moment)

I'm not familiar with Watts circ pumps. Both Taco and Grundfos single speed circ pumps should be good for your purpose. Just make sure that they are rated for the operation pressure.

I don't recall if there is a location for expansion tank in plumbing code, except that there must be at least one in a heating system. However, in my experience all hydronic expansion tanks that I have seen and installed due to manufacture spec are on the boiler feed (in your case will be the supply/cold water line).

The 1/2" return line for a circulation system is attached to the drain hole at the bottom of the hot water tank via a tee. Plumbing code call for a minimum of 18" of copper piping from tank before it is connected to PEX (subject to local jurisdiction).

It is not a difficult task to add a circulation line to your system by the your description of the floor joist & piping location, however having a plumber doing it will lower your stress level and the lost of time due to research (unless you enjoy doing it).

Imp is right that a non potable water system must be label as non potable/drinking water at fixtures. The piping system must have continuous marking/identification (purple tape/paint), and must be labeled at the minimum as I mentioned in my previous post.