A case for religion, and against AA.

[Retro Rob]

He makes a good point, you should address it.

Taxt craves my attention.

Last night, he was essentially begging me to "acknowledge his questions instead of burying my head in the sand" because I've been ignoring him for quite a while.

I don't know why he bothers if he knows how clueless I am about the subject we're discussing here.

I guess he just likes attention, or just the attention I ration out to him from time to time. Almost like a puppy begging for food scraps.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

How does being aware of everything defeat my point that he only created one planet with life on it that God is interested in?

I made no implications that his ability to know was limited...I'm illustrating how he focuses it on a singular thing, if he so chooses.

Cannot the creator of the Universe pick and choose what he decided to focus on?

Yes or no, please.

God can focus on whatever he pleases. An omniscient, omnipotent being doesn't need to focus on just one thing though; he can focus on literally everything in the Universe simultaneously. The concept of "focus" for a being that is capable of addressing complete attention to everything at once doesn't make any sense.

If there is no life outside of Earth, what else is there to be aware of? Empty space?

You seemed to be arguing that he wasn't populating the other buildings because there were problems to be addressed. He's perfectly capable of addressing those problems while simultaneously populating the other buildings and considering their problems, and doing every other thing in the Universe to boot. He's omnipotent. Why would an omnipotent creator stop at life on one planet?

Where did I say God can only focus on one thing at a time?

It was implied by your analogy that you needed to focus on a single building in the desert rather than focus on all of them simultaneously; this is where the analogy falls down, of course, because we're only capable of really focusing on one thing at once whereas God can focus on everything.

Who said God wasn't beyond the petty squabbles but you?

Strawman bypassed.

I have literally no idea what this means. You choose to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient creator, but then also choose to believe that he is extremely interested in what we're all up to, to the point that he won't start life anywhere else in the Universe because it would distract his infinite focus away from us, yet even though he's so fascinated with our petty squabbles, he won't intervene, because that would countermand the principles of free will that he laid out in the Bible... It's a bizarre combination of extreme arrogance (the most powerful being that created everything cares about ME!) and absurdity (he can do EVERYTHING but if he were to make life anywhere else, it would ruin his ability to focus on just us cause we're so awesome) in defiance of all logic. You seem to be personifying God, which is all well and good for making him seem familiar, but given our complete inability to conceptualize the omniscience or omnipotence required of the role, perhaps thinking of God in terms of our own intelligence or consciousness is woefully inadequate to describe the being that is God? It just comes across as intellectually lazy to me.

 

[witeken]

You seem to think that because God is God he has to do something....God being God can do as he wishes...including deciding to limit what he does for whatever reason....you seem to have no grasp on God.....what you grasp quite well is Atheist talking points or in your case...........

The universe is to god what Minecraft is to us in sandbox mode. So you're saying that god is just spectating the game? I don't know any Minecraft creator who is just staring and doing nothing.

 

[Retro Rob]

God can focus on whatever he pleases. An omniscient, omnipotent being doesn't need to focus on just one thing though; he can focus on literally everything in the Universe simultaneously. The concept of "focus" for a being that is capable of addressing complete attention to everything at once doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are trying to be right instead of understanding what I am saying. If I am not being clear, my apologies to you, or simply ask for clarity.

The whole thrust of that analogy was to point out that God can (1) populate the Universe, (2) address issues as they arise (which doesn't mean he can't do more than one thing at a time), and (3) simply choose to correct things on Earth since this is apparently the only one with intelligent life. This does not mean he focuses in the way humans do. We focus in the sense of needing to do one thing at a time; God focuses in the sense of prioritizing -- that's what I mean.

In fact, Jesus said he came to preach the good news FIRST...indicating that God is more than capable of making priorities and doing things however he sees fit.

You act as if choosing to do one thing at a time somehow means he's limited. This is a clear false dichotomy, and a very basic misunderstanding.

I also didn't say he "needed" to focus on one thing though, you're reading too much into what I'm saying, or putting on own spin on my words.

Clearly, an all-powerful being is in control of his own abilities, can choose to use them, not use them, decide how to use them, when to use them, etc.

It's your fault if you don't understand that.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It doesn't make sense because you are trying to be right instead of understanding what I am saying. If I am not being clear, my apologies to you, or simply ask for clarity.

The whole thrust of that analogy was to point out that God can (1) populate the Universe, (2) address issues as they arise (which doesn't mean he can't do more than one thing at a time), and (3) simply choose to correct things on Earth since this is apparently the only one with intelligent life. This does not mean he focuses in the way humans do. We focus in the sense of needing to do one thing at a time; God focuses in the sense of prioritizing -- that's what I mean.

It's your fault if you don't understand that.

Then please clarify: Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being who is capable of knowing, understanding, reacting to and creating anything and everything simultaneously need to "focus on" or "prioritize" small sections of the Universe? Do the words "focus" or "prioritize" make sense when discussing a being that can do everything simultaneously? What rationale are you offering to support your assumption that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the Universe because God's priority is Earth? Furthermore, you claim that God is focusing on Earth because Earth is the only planet with intelligent life; did that intelligent life spring up without God's involvement, or did he create it? If he created it, why would he not do so elsewhere? If he didn't create it, what is your argument against those who claim that through the sheer numbers of planets in the Universe, it's likely that life exists elsewhere?

 

[jackstar7]

Applying the very idea of focus to an omniscient being is beyond absurd.

But then an infinite being is beyond description and comprehension, so the very notion of paying it any mind is moot.

 

[alzan]

It doesn't make sense because you are trying to be right instead of understanding what I am saying. If I am not being clear, my apologies to you, or simply ask for clarity.

The whole thrust of that analogy was to point out that God can (1) populate the Universe, (2) address issues as they arise (which doesn't mean he can't do more than one thing at a time), and (3) simply choose to correct things on Earth since this is apparently the only one with intelligent life. This does not mean he focuses in the way humans do. We focus in the sense of needing to do one thing at a time; God focuses in the sense of prioritizing -- that's what I mean.

In fact, Jesus said he came to preach the good news FIRST...indicating that God is more than capable of making priorities and doing things however he sees fit.

You act as if choosing to do one thing at a time somehow means he's limited. This is a clear false dichotomy, and a very basic misunderstanding.

I also didn't say he "needed" to focus on one thing though, you're reading too much into what I'm saying, or putting on own spin on my words.

Clearly, an all-powerful being is in control of his own abilities, can choose to use them, not use them, decide how to use them, when to use them, etc.

It's your fault if you don't understand that.

FWIW I think you're both trying to be right but from different positions; you from the position of theism positive, AP from the position of theism neutral.

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I think I prioritize the different aspects of life all the time; granted it's not the universe but it is my universe

 

[Retro Rob]

Then please clarify: Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being who is capable of knowing, understanding, reacting to and creating anything and everything simultaneously need to "focus on" or "prioritize" small sections of the Universe?

Now this is a good question. I don't know, and no one can answer that question.

But that's almost like asking: "Why would such a smart, intelligent person, capable of being anything he wanted, decide to become a police officer"?

Because intelligent beings can do what they want to do. That's basically the answer to your question.

Do the words "focus" or "prioritize" make sense when discussing a being that can do everything simultaneously?

God *can* wipe all life on earth out right now. Doesn't mean he will.

What one can do has nothing to do with what one should do, or will do.

What rationale are you offering to support your assumption that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the Universe because God's priority is Earth?

Well, you know my beliefs and that I believe that the Bible indicates that life exists only on Earth. If he sent his Son to die to give us forgiveness, then he clearly cares about humans and Earth (granting all this be true).

I've seen no Biblical implication that intelligent life exists elsewhere on other planets.

Furthermore, you claim that God is focusing on Earth because Earth is the only planet with intelligent life; did that intelligent life spring up without God's involvement, or did he create it? If he created it, why would he not do so elsewhere? If he didn't create it, what is your argument against those who claim that through the sheer numbers of planets in the Universe, it's likely that life exists elsewhere?

I believe he created life, but why not elsewhere? I don't know if he didn't, but I have no reason to believe life exists elsewhere.

If God exists, and you have a bunch of "why" questions as regards his actions, then I cannot help you.

But you're welcome to believe whatever you want.

 

[alzan]

Now this is a good question. I don't know, and no one can answer that question.

But that's almost like asking: "Why would such a smart, intelligent person, capable of being anything he wanted, decide to become a police officer"?

Because intelligent beings can do what they want to do. That's basically the answer to your question.

God *can* wipe all life on earth out right now. Doesn't mean he will.

What one can do has nothing to do with what one should do, or will do.

Well, you know my beliefs and that I believe that the Bible indicates that life exists only on Earth. If he sent his Son to die to give us forgiveness, then he clearly cares about humans and Earth (granting all this be true).

I've seen no Biblical implication that intelligent life exists elsewhere on other planets.

I believe he created life, but why not elsewhere? I don't know if he didn't, but I have no reason to believe life exists elsewhere.

If God exists, and you have a bunch of "why" questions as regards his actions, then I cannot help you.

But you're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Dirty Harry for the OT, Andy Griffith for the NT?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't "have the first clue about what you..nonetheless"??

That's not a coherent thought, Cerpin Taxt, and I'm the one in need of "more readie"? lol

Pay attention.

I think you need a remedial course in English.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You mad, bruh?

You got a response, "bruh"?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't know why he bothers if he knows how clueless I am about the subject we're discussing here.

I "bother" because despite your cluelessness you never seem to stop spruiking your ignorant hogwash across this forum.

I guess he just likes attention, or just the attention I ration out to him from time to time. Almost like a puppy begging for food scraps.

Yeah, you tell yourself that. Do you think anyone but you actually thinks the above is true? Frankly, I don't even think you believe it, but being honest about the facts is not something I've come to expect from you.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It's your fault if you don't understand that.

No, the fault is quite certainly yours. You said:

This explains why God focuses of Earth and not the "septillion planets he created".

...but the fact is that it doesn't explain anything. You've shifted your position from "This is the reason god is doing X and not doing Y" to "God is doing X, but he could just as easily do Y, or X and Y together."

That is you being inconsistent in your own argument, and that's nobody else's fault but yours.

 

[momeNt]

Why do people drown themselves in the specificity of God. Why bother? God is used more as a concept, something to give certain people purpose and a framework for behavior.

Nobody should concern themselves with humanizing God, the entire point is that its an entity beyond our comprehension.

Both believers and atheists fall into this trap, and its an exercise in futility. An atheist will not convince someone to stop believing in God because they point out inconsistencies in how a believer attempts to humanize God. Their belief is actually rooted in the concept of a creator and a greater being, not a puppetmaster with specific traits and rules. So until you have a discussion on what actually is the foundation of the beliefs, you'll likely get nowhere!

 

[JEDIYoda]

...but the fact is that it doesn't explain anything. You've shifted your position from "This is the reason god is doing X and not doing Y" to "God is doing X, but he could just as easily do Y, or X and Y together."

That is you being inconsistent in your own argument, and that's nobody else's fault but yours.

The problem is you want others to lift you up as the all knowing Cerpin Taxt.....
Your SOP is simple you burst on the scene with your diatribe and you expect everybody to "GASP" and throw their hands in the air and say -- Cerpin has spoken , those who disagree must be wrong!

Then you honestly seek to ask questions of a God who can do anything he pleases, as if that God is suppose to answer to the almighty intellect of the human Cerpin!!

Talk about inconsistency -- you are hardly consistent and you throw atheist talking points out all over the place instead of understanding that Gods thoughts and actions are just that Gods thoughts and actions or inactions...they are all God`s!!

There are things that we are not or cannot even begin to conceive that have to do with God!!

Now you will probably say to me in a smart alleck way -- name one of those things?
I will say to you -- How can I name one of those things when we cannot even begin to conceive of those things....

Or you will say - How do you know there are things that we cannot even begin to conceive......again-- How am I suppose too?

Isiah 55:8 -- “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” saith the Lord.


Yet you really have no clue about anything Retro Rob has attempted in a loving way to educate you about!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The problem is you want others to lift you up as the all knowing Cerpin Taxt.....
Your SOP is simple you burst on the scene with your diatribe and you expect everybody to "GASP" and throw their hands in the air and say -- Cerpin has spoken , those who disagree must be wrong!

Then you honestly seek to ask questions of a God who can do anything he pleases, as if that God is suppose to answer to the almighty intellect of the human Cerpin!!

Talk about inconsistency -- you are hardly consistent and you throw atheist talking points out all over the place instead of understanding that Gods thoughts and actions are just that Gods thoughts and actions or inactions...they are all God`s!!

There are things that we are not or cannot even begin to conceive that have to do with God!!

Now you will probably say to me in a smart alleck way -- name one of those things?
I will say to you -- How can I name one of those things when we cannot even begin to conceive of those things....

Or you will say - How do you know there are things that we cannot even begin to conceive......again-- How am I suppose too?

Isiah 55:8 -- “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” saith the Lord.


Yet you really have no clue about anything Retro Rob has attempted in a loving way to educate you about!

 

[jackstar7]

The problem is you want others to lift you up as the all knowing Cerpin Taxt.....
Your SOP is simple you burst on the scene with your diatribe and you expect everybody to "GASP" and throw their hands in the air and say -- Cerpin has spoken , those who disagree must be wrong!

Then you honestly seek to ask questions of a God who can do anything he pleases, as if that God is suppose to answer to the almighty intellect of the human Cerpin!!

Talk about inconsistency -- you are hardly consistent and you throw atheist talking points out all over the place instead of understanding that Gods thoughts and actions are just that Gods thoughts and actions or inactions...they are all God`s!!

There are things that we are not or cannot even begin to conceive that have to do with God!!

Now you will probably say to me in a smart alleck way -- name one of those things?
I will say to you -- How can I name one of those things when we cannot even begin to conceive of those things....

Or you will say - How do you know there are things that we cannot even begin to conceive......again-- How am I suppose too?

Isiah 55:8 -- “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” saith the Lord.


Yet you really have no clue about anything Retro Rob has attempted in a loving way to educate you about!

Addressing the bolded: Do you imagine God knows pleasure? Compared to pain/disappointment? How could God be disappointed AND omniscient? Those are at odds.


You rail against Cerpin, but the problem is the assertions made by you and Retro that attribute characteristics to an infinite being that you simply cannot comprehend due to its infinite nature.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, the fault is quite certainly yours. You said:



...but the fact is that it doesn't explain anything. You've shifted your position from "This is the reason god is doing X and not doing Y" to "God is doing X, but he could just as easily do Y, or X and Y together."

That is you being inconsistent in your own argument, and that's nobody else's fault but yours.

Why don't you do a bit more "readie" and less "talkie".

I was referring to, specifically, what I posted right before that statement:

Clearly, an all-powerful being is in control of his own abilities, can choose to use them, not use them, decide how to use them, when to use them, etc.

It's your fault if you don't understand that.

That's my entire point, really, that an all-powerful being can do whatever it wants, when it wants, how it wants while not being constrained by our concepts or understanding.

My argument has no inconsistencies and he can do X for whatever reason, while possessing the abilities to X, Y, and Z all at once. There is nothing inconsistent about that.

It's clear that you're being nothing more than a confrontational, combative little troll.

**Back to being ignored**

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why don't you do a bit more "readie" and less "talkie".

That's pretty rich coming from someone that can't parse a sentence in plain English.

I was referring to, specifically, what I posted right before that statement:

That's my entire point, really, that an all-powerful being can do whatever it wants, when it wants, how it wants while not being constrained by our concepts or understanding.

My argument has no inconsistencies and he can do X for whatever reason, while possessing the abilities to X, Y, and Z all at once. There is nothing inconsistent about that.

It is inconsistent with your claim to have explained the behavior of your god. If you cannot describe why he does X instead of doing Y, you haven't offered any explanation.

Of course, I'm repeating myself, because you haven't actually addressed the thrust of my argument. In fact, it doesn't even seem like you comprehend it.

It's clear that you're being nothing more than a confrontational, combative little troll.

**Back to being ignored**

Duck your head back in the sand like we all know you must to preserve the insular mind-trap that is your theistic religion.

 

[Retro Rob]

Duck your head back in the sand like we all know you must to preserve the insular mind-trap that is your theistic religion.

Ok, I will. Whatever stuffs your pie hole.

 

[Retro Rob]

Dirty Harry for the OT, Andy Griffith for the NT?

Whatever works, I guess!

 

[Retro Rob]

Why do people drown themselves in the specificity of God. Why bother? God is used more as a concept, something to give certain people purpose and a framework for behavior.

Nobody should concern themselves with humanizing God, the entire point is that its an entity beyond our comprehension.

Both believers and atheists fall into this trap, and its an exercise in futility. An atheist will not convince someone to stop believing in God because they point out inconsistencies in how a believer attempts to humanize God. Their belief is actually rooted in the concept of a creator and a greater being, not a puppetmaster with specific traits and rules. So until you have a discussion on what actually is the foundation of the beliefs, you'll likely get nowhere!

I like these topics, personally, but I agree with you.

Pointing out inconsistencies in logic (is what's really being done here) only means you're not being logically consistent...it doesn't nothing to alter the reality of whether or not God exists, or how his abilities actually relate to him.

We can sit here an argue till we're blue in the face about who's being logically fallacious, but logic cannot alter facts, no matter how sound/unsound it is.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What Retro Rob said -- It's clear that you're being nothing more than a confrontational, combative little troll.

**Back to being ignored**

 

[JEDIYoda]

Addressing the bolded: Do you imagine God knows pleasure? Compared to pain/disappointment? How could God be disappointed AND omniscient? Those are at odds.<--- really? Let me guess you think and comprehend at the same level that God does? You say they are at odds.....only in your finite human understanding!! You are attempting to be cute by claiming that you understand totally on God`s level the things of God...are you not?


You rail against Cerpin, but the problem is the assertions made by you and Retro that attribute characteristics to an infinite being that you simply cannot comprehend due to its infinite nature.

Again let me point out -- There are things that we are not or cannot even begin to conceive that have to do with God!!

You are attempting to be cute by claiming that you understand totally on God`s level the things of God...are you not?

Now you will probably say to me in a smart alleck way -- name one of those things?
I will say to you -- How can I name one of those things when we cannot even begin to conceive of those things....

Or you will say - How do you know there are things that we cannot even begin to conceive......again-- How am I suppose too?

Isiah 55:8 -- &#8220;For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,&#8221; saith the Lord.

 

[IronWing]

Again let me point out -- There are things that we are not or cannot even begin to conceive that have to do with God!!

You are attempting to be cute by claiming that you understand totally on God`s level the things of God...are you not?

Now you will probably say to me in a smart alleck way -- name one of those things?
I will say to you -- How can I name one of those things when we cannot even begin to conceive of those things....

Or you will say - How do you know there are things that we cannot even begin to conceive......again-- How am I suppose too?

Isiah 55:8 -- &#8220;For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,&#8221; saith the Lord.

Say what? You created your god to be inexplicable? Why would you do that?

Also 2000th reply, woot!