A case for religion, and against AA.

[Retro Rob]

And they'll be correct.

It's a cumulative thing.

None of us are going to begrudge them for being smarter... as that's usually the intent of parents in the first place.

You missed the point. Being "uneducated" is relative to the person you're asking.

I see nothing "uneducated" about inventing the internet just because people can later communicate telepathically.

 

[dphantom]

So... no measurement. Got it.

Unfortunately, you do not "get it". We cannot sit Plato down today and take an IQ test. However, we can assess Plato's remarkable brilliance by the works he left behind and the writings of others about him. As one example.

Do not make the mistake simply because you or I "know" more in some (many) areas that we are therefore "smarter". I for one would not want to match wits with Plato or Aristotle. I am afraid I would be the worse for wear.

And to stop this thread hijack, I will now return to our previously scheduled program. My apologies for sidetracking the discussion.

 

[witeken]

you are confusing knowledge with the ability to think. Hence why some of our ancients are smarter than you.

I don't think so.

 

[witeken]

Every generation has its intellectual peak. A hundred years from now, your great grand kids will look back in shame about how uneducated you were.

Exactly. This is exactly how I look at all those people who invented and believed in all those gods. They were extremely uneducated.

 

[justoh]

Exactly. This is exactly how I look at all those people who invented and believed in all those gods. They were extremely uneducated.

It's not really the same. They were invented a long time ago - much longer than 100 years - when we didn't know any better, and arguably some of those who followed them who wield religious power aren't themselves religious, and use it simply as a tool for control.

Joseph Smith for example, was a well-documented fraudster. Constantine's conversion also questionable as to how genuine it was. Neo-conservatism based on the premise of religion being used this way, and the people who came up with it and use it, strauss and his disciples, wolfowitz and others involved in politics, peaking with the last Bush presidency, weren't religious themselves, since one has to be an idiot to actually believe any of that bullshit, which they aren't. They work behind the scenes and pull the strings. Fortunately for them, most people are very stupid. Just look at these people posting here. Ridiculous.

 

[Retro Rob]

Exactly. This is exactly how I look at all those people who invented and believed in all those gods. They were extremely uneducated.

So would you say the people who invent the Mars Rover are "uneducated" because 100 years from today we can teleport to the surface of Mars?


No generation was uneducated, really, they just didn't know what we now know.

Heck, no one would call newton uneducated, would they?

 

[witeken]

No, and I didn't say that, but I don't think you have to be very educated to write the Bible.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So would you say the people who invent the Mars Rover are "uneducated" because 100 years from today we can teleport to the surface of Mars?

It is interesting that you must resort to inventing totally imaginary scenarios to bolster even the slightest support for your point. It doesn't really bode well for the legitimacy of it.

The fact is, the people of the past were less educated than the people of today. The people of tomorrow will be more educated than the people of today. When it comes to agreeing upon facts about the universe around us, it is unquestioningly more reliable to rely on the reports, discoveries, experiments and conclusions of our contemporaries vis-a-vis ancient philosophers -- none of which were authors of any books in the Bible, particularly.

No generation was uneducated, really, they just didn't know what we now know.

So the past generations were less educated. The point is that we shouldn't rely upon their ideas about how the world works, because they simply did not know what we know now.

Heck, no one would call newton uneducated, would they?

I would call him ignorant of many things.

 

[justoh]

No, and I didn't say that, but I don't think you have to be very educated to write the Bible.

Somehow rob is making more sense than you are at the moment. Ever heard the expression, "greatest story ever told?"

 

[witeken]

Somehow rob is making more sense than you are at the moment. Ever heard the expression, "greatest story ever told?"

No, what is your point?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Somehow rob is making more sense than you are at the moment. Ever heard the expression, "greatest story ever told?"

wiketen says -- No, whati s your point?

justoh was very plain and clear in what he said!!Obvioulst Wiketen has huge issues with comprehension !

 

[witeken]

justoh was very plain and clear in what he said!!

Nope.

Obvioulst Wiketen has huge issues with comprehension !

Nope.

 

[lotus503]

so now we have established that previous generations lacked the foundational knowledge of current generations. Has nothing to do with IQ etc and i'm sure for the day these folks were highly educated.

Point is the average 15 year old knows more about the natural world than the brightest minds of the earlier centuries.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, and I didn't say that, but I don't think you have to be very educated to write the Bible.

Not very educated how? Do you know that there are very brilliant scientists that are "uneducated" or "not very educated" as regards theology? (Bill Nye being one of them).

You can be a very educated person, but ignorant of disciplines that fall outside your scope of education, thus "less educated".

 

[justoh]

Well, if we accept wiki's definition of education,

Education in its general sense is a form of learning in which the knowledge, skills, and habits of a group of people are transferred from one generation to the next through teaching, training, or research.

The amount of knowledge available has increased over time, but it's always a relative determination whether someone is educated or not, depending on what's available. So it really doesn't seem to make much sense to say that "people were less educated in the past."

You can say that more people as a % of the population are educated now than previously, or less, or that, say, the chinese had more knowledge than the west -- though that's debatable -- but not that people are more educated now than before because we know more.

So you can only talk about the writers of the bible as uneducated relative to the general state of knowledge at the time, not compared to now.

As far as christianity specifically, the council of jerusalem and the first ecumenical council at nicea both took place before the augustinian disregard for knowledge took hold after the fall of rome, and how they chose to frame the christian dogma was very deliberate and even cunning. They had all the greatest minds from all over the roman empire in attendance. Presumably?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Point is the average 15 year old knows more about the natural world than the brightest minds of the earlier centuries.

That's a very moot point.............

You go back 1,000 years when you had to hunt and fish and trap for your food and know how to skin what you caught and grow vegetables and find water a very high percentage of individuals living today would starve to death due to lack of knowledge concerning how to do these things that were fundamental to survival........

so now we have established that previous generations in effect knew exactly what they needed to know to survive yet previous generations lacked the foundational knowledge of current generations. Has nothing to do with IQ etc and i'm sure for the day these folks were highly educated.

 

[sandorski]

That's a very moot point.............

You go back 1,000 years when you had to hunt and fish and trap for your food and know how to skin what you caught and grow vegetables and find water a very high percentage of individuals living today would starve to death due to lack of knowledge concerning how to do these things that were fundamental to survival........

so now we have established that previous generations in effect knew exactly what they needed to know to survive yet previous generations lacked the foundational knowledge of current generations. Has nothing to do with IQ etc and i'm sure for the day these folks were highly educated.

Moot. Intelligence can only act on the Knowledge available to it. If that Knowledge is very limited or even Incorrect, the results of Intelligence acting upon it will also be very limited or Incorrect.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Moot. Intelligence can only act on the Knowledge available to it. If that Knowledge is very limited or even Incorrect, the results of Intelligence acting upon it will also be very limited or Incorrect.

Hardly moot...
The knowledge to be able to hunt and fish and trap for your food and know how to skin what you caught and grow vegetables and find water and live without electricity as well as make a living is very alive and readily available....yet a good percentage of the population today would literally starve to death or steal in order to survive......

Intelligence this intelligence that.......you in essence said nothing...a bunch of words that mean nothing!!

 

[sandorski]

Hardly moot...
The knowledge to be able to hunt and fish and trap for your food and know how to skin what you caught and grow vegetables and find water and live without electricity as well as make a living is very alive and readily available....yet a good percentage of the population today would literally starve to death or steal in order to survive......

Intelligence this intelligence that.......you in essence said nothing...a bunch of words that mean nothing!!

We know how to do all those things, but 1000x better. So much better that the majority of us in the First World don't even need to bother with doing it.

 

[soulcougher73]

Those who wrote ancient texts were highly educated for their time, as smart as we are today. Don't be so quick to dismiss those who can do what you cannot.

LOL Please. They were dumber than a 5th grader.

 

[soulcougher73]

Every generation has its intellectual peak. A hundred years from now, your great grand kids will look back in shame about how uneducated you were.

Tada..you figured it out. They were dumb back then.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

No. They weren't dumb. That's the wrong word. The average fifth grader knows more geometry then Euclid did, but do not have the intellect to have figured out the principles of geometry as he did, with the information he had available.

Educated as it's commonly used isn't the right word either. It's typically used to describe someone who hasn't been taught information that is in fact available to society.

The word is primitive. They were more primitive.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

No. They weren't dumb. That's the wrong word. The average fifth grader knows more geometry then Euclid did, but do not have the intellect to have figured out the principles of geometry as he did, with the information he had available.

Educated as it's commonly used isn't the right word either. It's typically used to describe someone who hasn't been taught information that is in fact available to society.

The word is primitive. They were more primitive.

Exactly. It's easy for us to look back at people 2,000 years ago and say things like "they didn't know about bacteria? IDIOTS." But no one reading this discovered bacteria, or Newtonian laws of motion, or how to weaponize gunpowder, or any other of thousands of brilliant ideas that have come since. We have the benefit of thousands of years of great thinkers coming before us to build human knowledge to the point we are today, and we can learn about all their accomplishments without having to actually discover everything again on our own. You aren't "smarter" than someone just because you were taught about Bernoulli's Principle and they weren't. You may have learned more than the people who lived 2,000 years ago, but that doesn't mean that the people who wrote the Bible were "uneducated," it means that the depth of human knowledge was comparatively shallow back then.

 

[MongGrel]

So would you say the people who invent the Mars Rover are "uneducated" because 100 years from today we can teleport to the surface of Mars?


No generation was uneducated, really, they just didn't know what we now know.

Heck, no one would call newton uneducated, would they?

I'd venture to say you're getting into a area you shouldn't be going personally.

Actually I've refrained for a while but I'll just drop it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'd venture to say you're getting into a area you shouldn't be going personally.

Actually I've refrained for a while but I'll just drop it.

Why? Retro seems very capable......might I venture it`s to deep a subject for you.....