A case for religion, and against AA.

[DrPizza]

STOP TROLLING.

Enough with the name calling.
(And, report posts that violate the rules, rather than responding to them in kind.)

 

[Pray To Jesus]

I don't need faith. I know there are people of greater mass than me. I know that there are people of greater height than me. I know that there are (a few ) people of greater intelligence than me. The list goes on. What do I need faith for?

You use faith all the time yet you deny it. It's very disheartening to see a person practicing such a high degree of self-deception.

The lack of logic is obvious in your ridiculous claim that you don't need faith.

It's hilarious to see how you often fail to comprehend easy concepts, then you repeatedly fail to, on your own, see your mistakes and lack of understanding.

 

[JD50]

Because the universe exists and we're fortunate enough to live in it, that's why. Round and round we go though.

How is this evidence of a god?

 

[dphantom]

How is this evidence of a god?

Evidence or proof? Evidence we have in plenty with the Universe, its origins, life, Laws and so forth. Proof though is something we cannot do. No one can "prove" God exists. But many of us see "evidence" of Him around us and within us.

With that said, there are scholars/philosophers who have offered a proof of God's existence. George Berkeley for one has offered a proof showing God does exist.

Of course, any evidence can have alternate explanations. Explanations that discount God can exist. Hence Faith enters the picture for Christians and others who believe in God.

 

[JD50]

Evidence or proof? Evidence we have in plenty with the Universe, its origins, life, Laws and so forth. Proof though is something we cannot do. No one can "prove" God exists. But many of us see "evidence" of Him around us and within us.

With that said, there are scholars/philosophers who have offered a proof of God's existence. George Berkeley for one has offered a proof showing God does exist.

Of course, any evidence can have alternate explanations. Explanations that discount God can exist. Hence Faith enters the picture for Christians and others who believe in God.

Ok, how does that point to the existence of a god, and more specifically, your god?

 

[dphantom]

Ok, how does that point to the existence of a god, and more specifically, your god?

To me it is self evident. To atheists who require scientific evidence, data that measures in some way God, perhaps not.

 

[JD50]

To me it is self evident. To atheists who require scientific evidence, data that measures in some way God, perhaps not.

Ok, if all you have is "it's self evident" then that's not very persuasive, and I'm not even sure what the point is in debating it.

 

[dphantom]

Ok, if all you have is "it's self evident" then that's not very persuasive, and I'm not even sure what the point is in debating it.

I was not debating it. But having a discussion

My Faith is quite firm. That does not mean I reject science. Science and religion have their place and in my opinion are quite complementary and in fact necessary to each other.

 

[JEDIYoda]

and I'm not even sure what the point is in debating it.

this is a discussion forum...not a debating forum......
as dphantom said -- To me it is self evident. To atheists who require scientific evidence, data that measures in some way God, perhaps not.

 

[JD50]

this is a discussion forum...not a debating forum......
as dphantom said -- To me it is self evident. To atheists who require scientific evidence, data that measures in some way God, perhaps not.

Well it doesn't sound like there's much to discuss if your answer is always going to be "it's self evident to me."

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well it doesn't sound like there's much to discuss if your answer is always going to be "it's self evident to me."

fair enuff....
As an Atheist your answer to anything a Christian or believer in God posts is always prove it.........so perhaps we are at am impasse?

 

[dphantom]

Well it doesn't sound like there's much to discuss if your answer is always going to be "it's self evident to me."

Of course there is. We can discuss why God is self evident to me while not self evident to you. We can discuss philosophical proofs that have been offered for God's existence or not. And we can even engage in debate if both sides want to do that.

What should not occur is the awful name calling and denigration of other viewpoints that this thread has generated. Most of us here are adults I would surmise so should know how to act like an adult and have a reasoned discussion of contrary viewpoints.

 

[soulcougher73]

Of course there is. We can discuss why God is self evident to me while not self evident to you. We can discuss philosophical proofs that have been offered for God's existence or not. And we can even engage in debate if both sides want to do that.

What should not occur is the awful name calling and denigration of other viewpoints that this thread has generated. Most of us here are adults I would surmise so should know how to act like an adult and have a reasoned discussion of contrary viewpoints.

He already tried discussing it with you and others. He asked a question and you didnt give anything tangable except "its self evident to you". Its hard to discuss stuff if you cant get into specifics, evidence, proof etc. This is why these threads always disolve to name calling etc. It is very frustrating dealing with religious people who cant offer anything to the discussion that isnt faith or an old book. You guys are like 2 trick ponies.

I find the overall topic exciting to talk about, but i can only do it so long before i lose interest with the same ole same ole every religious thread.

 

[Retro Rob]

He already tried discussing it with you and others. He asked a question and you didnt give anything tangable except "its self evident to you". Its hard to discuss stuff if you cant get into specifics, evidence, proof etc. This is why these threads always disolve to name calling etc. It is very frustrating dealing with religious people who cant offer anything to the discussion that isnt faith or an old book. You guys are like 2 trick ponies.

I find the overall topic exciting to talk about, but i can only do it so long before i lose interest with the same ole same ole every religious thread.

Actually, it goes both ways as atheists think we have the burden to prove God..so they many time do stand and want evidence brought to them, so they can shoot it down. I personally believe you (and many others) have no interests in God anyway so asking for evidence is really rhetorical. Anyone who wants to believe in God, will find a way to do so.

We really are under no such obligation to prove anything to you, as his existence is self-evident.

All we have to do is give you reasons why you should believe in him....that's our only obligation.

 

[soulcougher73]

Actually, it goes both ways as atheists think we have the burden to prove God..so they many time do stand and want evidence brought to them, so they can shoot it down. I personally believe you (and many others) have no interests in God anyway so asking for evidence is really rhetorical. Anyone who wants to believe in God, will find a way to do so.

We really are under no such obligation to prove anything to you, as his existence is self-evident.

All we have to do is give you reasons why you should believe in him....that's our only obligation.

See. You prove my post above. "Its self evident" doesnt mean anything when you just said "anyone who wants to believe in god, will find a way to do so."

You basically just said you make stuff up.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You use faith all the time yet you deny it. It's very disheartening to see a person practicing such a high degree of self-deception.

The lack of logic is obvious in your ridiculous claim that you don't need faith.

It's hilarious to see how you often fail to comprehend easy concepts, then you repeatedly fail to, on your own, see your mistakes and lack of understanding.

None of this is an argument. It's just gainsaying and personal attacks.

 

[Retro Rob]

See. You prove my post above. "Its self evident" doesnt mean anything when you just said "anyone who wants to believe in god, will find a way to do so."

Of course you'll find a way to do so, just as you'll find a way to gather food when you're hungry...you don't sit and wait for someone to bring food to you, so why would you wait for someone to convince you God is real if you want to believe in Him?

Something being "self-evident" simply means that someone/something obviously is responsible for "X" being here. Whether is Yahweh, Allah, or the Big Bang...that's where the reason to believe comes in.

I think its evident "something" brought the universe and life into being. That much I think is self-evident.

 

[dphantom]

It is very frustrating dealing with religious people who cant offer anything to the discussion that isnt faith or an old book.

Faith is core to our beliefs. I have Faith in Jesus and salvation through Him.

Evidence is also apparent. I see evidence in God's existence in the creation of the Universe. I believe God did that. You do not believe God did that. I see as evidence of God's existence the very notion we can even conceive that there is something greater than ourselves. That is some of my evidence. You may choose to disagree and propose your evidence for why God does not exist.

I believe God has a hand in our lives - that is God has a plan for each of us if we choose to follow it. That is Faith.

Faith, science, reason, philosophy. All must - in my opinion - interact for us to understand all of the world and universe around us.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Actually, it goes both ways as atheists think we have the burden to prove God..so they many time do stand and want evidence brought to them, so they can shoot it down. I personally believe you (and many others) have no interests in God anyway so asking for evidence is really rhetorical. Anyone who wants to believe in God, will find a way to do so.

We really are under no such obligation to prove anything to you, as his existence is self-evident.

All we have to do is give you reasons why you should believe in him....that's our only obligation.

If you expect people to believe the claims you make, then you have an obligation to substantiate them.

If you do not expect people to believe the claims you make, then what are you doing in the Discussion Forum?

 

[JEDIYoda]

See. You prove my post above. "Its self evident" doesnt mean anything when you just said "anyone who wants to believe in god, will find a way to do so."

You basically just said you make stuff up.

that's really disingenuous of you to say that!
Just because what he says he believes, does not mean that he has made stuff up!
It means that you have the right to accept or reject what he has said!

It`s that plain and simple.

Rob M. is correct -- Of course if you truly are searching or even trying to find a way to believe in God, you'll find a way to do so, just as you'll find a way to gather food when you're hungry...you don't sit and wait for someone to bring food to you, so why would you wait for someone to convince you God is real if you want to believe in Him?

 

[JEDIYoda]

If you expect people to believe the claims you make, then you have an obligation to substantiate them.

If you do not expect people to believe the claims you make, then what are you doing in the Discussion Forum?

That is not true at all!
After 1069 posts in this thread with most of them being Atheists making fun of other peoples beliefs the onus is upon you to either accept or reject what is being said!

Just say that you don`t believe or something other than a massive bloviation about fairy tales and unicorns and irresponsibility....etc

It`s really that simple! Considering from the very first post the atheist have posted nothing that proves their is no God! They have not even posted that there is evidence that there is no God!

You may claim the opposite is true to which I will say you have your beliefs as an "Atheist" and we have our Beliefs as "Christians or believers!"

You cannot have a discussion where one side is responsible to prove something and all the other does is respond that we believe in fairly tales or other such nonsense!

So again -- perhaps we are at an impasse...

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

That is not true at all!
After 1069 posts in this thread with most of them being Atheists making fun of other peoples beliefs the onus is upon you to either accept or reject what is being said!

If you're saying the fault does not lie with the theistic arguments, but rather lies with the atheists because of some character failing, then you are committing a textbook ad hominem fallacy.

Just say that you don`t believe or something other than a massive bloviation about fairy tales and unicorns ....

I'm unaware of any significant "bloviation about fairy tales and unicorns."

It`s really that simple! Considering from the very first post the atheist have posted nothing that proves their is no God! They have not even posted that there is evidence that there is no God!

Which atheists have purported to have any "evidence that there is no God"?

You may claim the opposite is true to which I will say you have your beliefs as an "Atheist" and we have our Beliefs as "Christians or believers!"

Then what are you here to discuss?

You cannot have a discussion where one side is responsible to prove something and all the other does is respond that we believe in fairly tales or other such nonsense!

I generally only give a cursory reading to posts by other non-theists, but I can quite confidently assert that my responses cannot be so characterized.

So again -- perhaps we are at an impasse...

The impasse appears to be that the non-theists will not accept the arguments of the theists because the theists' arguments are not convincing. If you are unsatisfied with that circumstance, then formulate convincing arguments.

 

[Retro Rob]

If you expect people to believe the claims you make, then you have an obligation to substantiate them.

If you do not expect people to believe the claims you make, then what are you doing in the Discussion Forum?

Such a black-and-white world you live in, my friend.

I don't expect people to believe my claims...I expect people to determine whether or not my claims are reasonble enough to believe.

In either case, it's up to the individual I am speaking with, not me.

 

[SlowSpyder]

It is unfortunate that people actually believe in something that provides zero evidence and uses a handbook full of errors and hatred as a somehow viable position to argue from. I can use the same arguments for Santa Claus as are used for a christian god (or most religions in general).

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Such a black-and-white world you live in, my friend.

Some things are black and white. Like, y'know... black, and white.

I don't expect people to believe my claims...I expect people to determine whether or not my claims are reasonble enough to believe.

So you expect people to believe your claim that your claims are reasonable to believe, but you don't expect people to believe your claims.

Got it.

In either case, it's up to the individual I am speaking with, not me.

The implication being that if your claims are not believed, it is the fault of the other person, not the fault of your arguments. Ad hominem.