A case for religion, and against AA.

[soulcougher73]

You're totally right. The difference is that we don't call what George Orwell writes the word of God, nor do we proclaim it infallible. Furthermore, there is no hard line of demarcation in the Bible between what is considered parable and what is considered literal. What is chosen as literal, then, seems to be selected by the reader and their own personal biases.

On a slightly separate topic, I think it's worthwhile to separate a notion of Truth (with a capital T) from science. It will always be possible to superimpose a supernatural model on whatever you are able to observe. I don't think even the most ardent atheists in this forum would object to that suggestion.

Whether that assertion that God can exist is a useful point of discussion then becomes the primary question. There are an infinite number of things that might be true that I have no way of confirming. God could be wonderful and benevolent. There could be a cabal of Gods that created life just so they would have something to torment. There could be no God at all. To differentiate between these equally viable models, I would need to have a falsifiable experiment that would have different outcomes for each of those possibilities outlined above. Without such an experiment, there is no effective difference between them and the notion of God is not a useful one for me. Furthermore, an inability to measurably distinguish between the existence and nonexistence of something, under any other circumstances, would lead a person to assume non-existence. Again, this would not be a proclamation of absolute Truth, but rather a practical consideration that life is complicated enough without worrying about things that are inherently unverifiable.

Which brings me to:



If you want to convince me that prayer is worthwhile, though, there needs to be some persistently measurable metric. Perhaps a double-blind trial where one group of patients have people in another room praying for their recovery, and another has a room of people praying for donuts? Such an experiment would be relatively easy to set up, and should provide easily discernible results.

The problem, when you suggest that prayers are "answered in many ways" is that it then provides me no tangible benefit to prayer. If I am unable to actually demonstrate that it does me any good, then why bother with it? Saying that you "just know" that you are being helped reeks of confirmation bias.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: "He is wicked smart"

 

[soulcougher73]

No, that is your free will acting outside of God's plan for you. God has a plan for everyone. Not all of us choose to follow His plan.

Then he is not all knowing. Why would he have a plan for me knowing i wouldnt follow it with my supposid free will?

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Actually, he did. He created man with a sinful nature. He created man without the ability to be pure or perfect. Man cannot avoid sinning. God created man with an uncontrollable urge to sin.

We have no control over it. We were created to be sinners.

Right?

He didn't create Adam & Eve with a sinful nature. They did that to themselves.

Humans inherited the sinful nature from the fall.

 

[soulcougher73]

Firstly, I don't want to convince you prayer works (as I cannot), but you firstly have to believe God exists and that he answers prayers.

If you're an atheist, and deep down deny the power of prayer, then you have no point on praying as it won't be sincere. The Bible points to two prerequisites: you must believe God exists and that he answers. That's basically it.

Prayer has done me plenty good. I've gotten jobs, money to pay my rent when I was short....all in part due to praying for it.

...but you'll likely posit that those were coming anyway, so you've removed the measurable metric. Then, how can you know that? You see?

So then it becomes pointless in even saying something about it. So believe what you want, and I will believe what I have evidence in support of.

I think in his example he would be using "believers" to test the praying. Not using an athiest.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Then he is not all knowing. Why would he have a plan for me knowing i wouldnt follow it with my supposid free will?

You are correct on that.

God is all knowing.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

This is your completely baseless assertion about reasoning you admitted you not understand.


And I want you to defend your claim that there was a mistake, or admit you don't know that there was one.

Your mistake was seeing God and Man as equals.

Initially I was hoping you were smart enough to see your mistake without me pointing it out. Was I being condescending?

I was being nice about my request for more information. It's using good communication techniques. I don't understand why you wouldn't show me step by step when I asked. Can you explain why you balked at that request?

 

[dphantom]

What plan? How do you know that there's a plan when you can't even confirm that god exists in the first place? This is you buying into the bullshit that was blatantly fabricated by those who wrote the books of the bible.

But you see I can confirm God has a plan for me. You need not get so angry, your belief there is no God can do me no harm nor others. Anger often is a manifestation of a deep seated fear. Are you afraid you may be wrong about God? Is there another reason for your anger besides the surface one you've stated about how Christians - and presumably all other religions - are irrational?

Not trying to turn this into a psych session, but I really do want to know what drives the anger or maybe frustration in atheists.

 

[ThinClient]

You have no basis to make your claims. Your fictional claims won't get you anywhere because I know you got nothing to support it. You do it a lot too.

You have no basis to make YOUR claims. You have zero evidence that your god exists or that christ was divine or that the bible is the inspired, infallible word of god.

Your fictional claims won't get you anywhere because I know you got nothing to support it.

You do it a lot too.

 

[ThinClient]

You can't prove anything you say. Geez man stop making stuff up. It gets old fast. It's boring to see fictional truth claims that are pretty much similar to saying "all atheists believe in God."

It's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's up to YOU to prove yourself correct.

You're only making an utter fool of yourself with these statements. You're essentially berating yourself publicly.

 

[dphantom]

Then he is not all knowing. Why would he have a plan for me knowing i wouldnt follow it with my supposid free will?

Of course He is. He knows you will not follow His plan. That is your free will at work.

 

[ThinClient]

Firstly, I don't want to convince you prayer works (as I cannot), but you firstly have to believe God exists and that he answers prayers.

If you're an atheist, and deep down deny the power of prayer, then you have no point on praying as it won't be sincere. The Bible points to two prerequisites: you must believe God exists and that he answers. That's basically it.

Prayer has done me plenty good. I've gotten jobs, money to pay my rent when I was short....all in part due to praying for it.

...but you'll likely posit that those were coming anyway, so you've removed the measurable metric. Then, how can you know that? You see?

So then it becomes pointless in even saying something about it. So believe what you want, and I will believe what I have evidence in support of.

You would have gotten those jobs and money without praying. There is absolutely nothing more than your confirmation bias to prove that prayer accomplishes anything.

Confirmation bias is not a measurable metric.

How can you know that prayer actually works if you have no actual falsifiable test with conclusive results?

Do you even understand what "confirmation bias" means?

 

[ThinClient]

Of course He is. He knows you will not follow His plan. That is your free will at work.

Free will doesn't exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Besides, god created us knowing that we either will or will not believe in him, right? God knew everything about us before we were born. He created us anyway, without changing anything, right? Because he is all-powerful, it is he who is responsible for creating me with a distinct lack of belief. He created me in such a way that I would demand evidence to support a positive claim and reject positive claims that have no evidence. He created me intending that I go to hell?

 

[soulcougher73]

Of course He is. He knows you will not follow His plan. That is your free will at work.

 

[Retro Rob]

Of course He is. He knows you will not follow His plan. That is your free will at work.

There is a fundamental problem with what you're saying here. If God has a plan, then he planned for Adam and Eve to sin, and planned for us to go to "hell".

Can't they then rightfully blame God for every bad thing, since he planned everything?

You're contradicting yourself by saying God knows what you will do, but what you're doing is "free will".

 

[Retro Rob]

You would have gotten those jobs and money without praying. There is absolutely nothing more than your confirmation bias to prove that prayer accomplishes anything.

Confirmation bias is not a measurable metric.

How can you know that prayer actually works if you have no actual falsifiable test with conclusive results?

Do you even understand what "confirmation bias" means?

Told you, "you were gonna get them anyway." Nuff said.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

You have no basis to make YOUR claims. You have zero evidence that your god exists or that christ was divine or that the bible is the inspired, infallible word of god.

Your fictional claims won't get you anywhere because I know you got nothing to support it.

You do it a lot too.

There is a lot of evidence from my perspective. A 1st hand witness account from an trustworthy authority is good evidence.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

There is a fundamental problem with what you're saying here. If God has a plan, then he planned for Adam and Eve to sin, and planned for us to go to "hell".

Can't they then rightfully blame God for every bad thing, since he planned everything?

You're contradicting yourself by saying God knows what you will do, but what you're doing is "free will".

Listen to that lecture to understand free will:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/serie...WatchShareFree&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ET

 

[Retro Rob]

Listen to that lecture to understand free will:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/serie...WatchShareFree&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ET

No, as I am tired of your linking to apologists sites and videos.

Give me your original points.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Besides, god created us knowing that we either will or will not believe in him, right? God knew everything about us before we were born. He created us anyway, without changing anything, right? Because he is all-powerful, it is he who is responsible for creating me with a distinct lack of belief. He created me in such a way that I would demand evidence to support a positive claim and reject positive claims that have no evidence. He created me intending that I go to hell?

Learn about freewill

Also listen to #5 for the answer to your question.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

No, as I am tired of your linking to apologists sites and videos.

Give me your original points.

I want to be efficient with my time. How about you listen first and then we can discuss it afterwards.


That series is pretty good and I think you will like it.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Firstly, I don't want to convince you prayer works (as I cannot), but you firstly have to believe God exists and that he answers prayers.

If you're an atheist, and deep down deny the power of prayer, then you have no point on praying as it won't be sincere. The Bible points to two prerequisites: you must believe God exists and that he answers. That's basically it.

Prayer has done me plenty good. I've gotten jobs, money to pay my rent when I was short....all in part due to praying for it.

...but you'll likely posit that those were coming anyway, so you've removed the measurable metric. Then, how can you know that? You see?

So then it becomes pointless in even saying something about it. So believe what you want, and I will believe what I have evidence in support of.

But we do control for exactly that kind of problem all the time, in other fields. Take pharmaceuticals. For most of human history, our understanding of medicine was clouded by confirmation bias. Let's say someone comes to me with the flu, and I tell them that eating candy canes will make them feel better. Chances are, in three days they'll feel better and tell me that the candy canes cured them. In reality, though, they were likely going to get better no matter what. What I do instead is create a "double blind" test, where neither the patient nor the doctor evaluating them know whether they're receiving a candy cane or a Jolly Rancher, and see who gets healthier faster.

As I said above, there should be some similar way to observe prayer in action, as performed by believers, that doesn't require me to be a believer to measure.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

He created me knowing that I will sin and go to hell for my sins?

Yes.


Long answer.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

But we do control for exactly that kind of problem all the time, in other fields. Take pharmaceuticals. For most of human history, our understanding of medicine was clouded by confirmation bias. Let's say someone comes to me with the flu, and I tell them that eating candy canes will make them feel better. Chances are, in three days they'll feel better and tell me that the candy canes cured them. In reality, though, they were likely going to get better no matter what. What I do instead is create a "double blind" test, where neither the patient nor the doctor evaluating them know whether they're receiving a candy cane or a Jolly Rancher, and see who gets healthier faster.

As I said above, there should be some similar way to observe prayer in action, as performed by believers, that doesn't require me to be a believer to measure.

Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

 

[Retro Rob]

But we do control for exactly that kind of problem all the time, in other fields. Take pharmaceuticals. For most of human history, our understanding of medicine was clouded by confirmation bias. Let's say someone comes to me with the flu, and I tell them that eating candy canes will make them feel better. Chances are, in three days they'll feel better and tell me that the candy canes cured them. In reality, though, they were likely going to get better no matter what. What I do instead is create a "double blind" test, where neither the patient nor the doctor evaluating them know whether they're receiving a candy cane or a Jolly Rancher, and see who gets healthier faster.

As I said above, there should be some similar way to observe prayer in action, as performed by believers, that doesn't require me to be a believer to measure.

Then why ask me for a measurable variable if you're going to find a way to explain them away?

You are actually trying to prove why prayer doesn't work, which is why I think this is one of those things you'd need to prove to yourself. I can't really convince you, especially if you reject the existence of God, which makes that prerequisite all the more important.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

It's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's up to YOU to prove yourself correct.

I don't have to prove that God exists. That is God's job. He chooses who gets His mercy. My job is to spread the gospel.


So defensive when I point out your fictional truth claims. Why are you so angry? Relax a bit and have fun with the discussion.