A case for religion, and against AA.

[JD50]

My point is, if your parents think religion is bad for you, you won't learn religion and therefore, are not likely to be religious, if your parents think religion is good for you, you willl likely be religious.

If your parents think science is good for you, you'll be taught it, and likely will admire science.

Parents are supposed to do this, whether they're atheist parents, muslim parents, christian parents, buddist parents...whatever.

You teach your kids what you think is correct for them to learn.

Yes, we are all well aware of that. I'm not sure what this has to do with what you quoted though.

You are further proving our point by the way.

 

[Retro Rob]

I didnt need to because the whole idea of some magical being creating all this is absurd to me.

And also, way to deflect the question off yourself.

If you didn't do it, then how can you reasonably expect me to?

 

[soulcougher73]

If you didn't do it, then how can you reasonably expect me to?

Because im not the one running around saying my "truth" is the truth.
I could be wrong about their being no god so i dont claim mine as truth. Its just the most logical conclusion.

 

[Retro Rob]

Because im not the one running around saying my "truth" is the truth.
I could be wrong about their being no god so i dont claim mine as truth. Its just the most logical conclusion.

I too could wrong, but I also could be right, and I don't think I am wrong. This rings of truth to me, so therefore is the more logical path. No other religious study needed, no more than it's needed for you.

 

[soulcougher73]

I too could wrong, but I also could be right, and I don't think I am wrong. This rings of truth to me, so therefore is the more logical path. No other religious study needed, no more than it's needed for you.

But you want to believe in a god. So you should study them all to be an informed person. I dont want to believe in any god so no need to study any of them.

 

[jhbball]

Born and raise by believing parents, rejected the religion at age 18 and moved out my mothers home, made a conscious decision when I was in my late 20s to start reading the Bible for myself with no religious nor atheistic influences so that I could make an unbiased choice on my own.

Of course, the fact that your household was religious (probably Christian) means an 'unbiased choice' was never actually possible. Additionally, as someone else pointed out: how can a choice be unbiased when you didn't consider any other religions (and only really sampled one previously)?

This was the point I was making. If your religion is a product of your circumstances, then how could you be rock solid in your belief that your God is the one true god? In some other country, there's a Hindu and a Muslim Rob M. making the exact same statements, also based on ancient books/texts. Heck, Islam is a more popular religion worldwide. Wouldn't that be grounds alone to at least consider it?

And just for reference: I'm actually an agnostic, not an atheist.

 

[Retro Rob]

But you want to believe in a god. So you should study them all to be an informed person. I dont want to believe in any god so no need to study any of them.

A person who wants to buy a car, doesn't have to test drive every car to make an "informed decision", does he?

Of course, choosing a religion isn't the same as choosing a car, but you don't need to "drive them all" to get the right one.

I am convinced the Bible tells the truth. Everyone doesn't see it that way.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I too could wrong, but I also could be right, and I don't think I am wrong. This rings of truth to me, so therefore is the more logical path. No other religious study needed, no more than it's needed for you.

Why does it ring of truth to you? Because science doesn't pretend or claim to have all the answers?

But you don't have a problem believing a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a forbidden piece of fruit, therefore condemning us all to original sin so that we have to accept a miracle working jewish zombie in our hearts that was sent down from a very jealous divine being to be a blood sacrifice to keep us from burning in a lake of fire forever, and instead to allow us to live forever in paradise (that believers sure seem in no hurry to get to) because that woman was convinced by that talking snake to eat a piece of fruit?

 

[Retro Rob]

Of course, the fact that your household was religious (probably Christian) means an 'unbiased choice' was never actually possible. Additionally, as someone else pointed out: how can a choice be unbiased when you didn't consider any other religions (and only really sampled one previously)?

This was the point I was making. If your religion is a product of your circumstances, then how could you be rock solid in your belief that your God is the one true god? In some other country, there's a Hindu and a Muslim Rob M. making the exact same statements, also based on ancient books/texts. Heck, Islam is a more popular religion worldwide. Wouldn't that be grounds alone to at least consider it?

And just for reference: I'm actually an agnostic, not an atheist.

I supposed you are for marriage equality and were born in the US, am I right? If you were born in Iraq, you'd be for stoning gays.

How do you know you have the correct view of marriage equality? It clearly isn't unbiased if you've never were taught why you needed to stone gays.

The point I want to make is that there is no such thing as an "unbiased" upbringing, unless you're willing to let you children totally raise themselves.

 

[SlowSpyder]

A person who wants to buy a car, doesn't have to test drive every car to make an "informed decision", does he?

Of course, choosing a religion isn't the same as choosing a car, but you don't need to "drive them all" to get the right one.

I am convinced the Bible tells the truth. Everyone doesn't see it that way.

But buying a car isn't saving your soul for eternity...

If believers actually believed what they said, they'd be a lot more welcoming of death and would do at least as much research as buying a car, if not a lot more. Most people at least test drive a few cars before buying. You would think someone who honestly believes in an afterlife would do at least that much due diligence.

 

[jhbball]

I supposed you are for marriage equality and were born in the US, am I right? If you were born in Iraq, you'd be for stoning gays.

How do you know you have the correct view of marriage equality? It clearly isn't unbiased of you've never were taught to stone gays.

The point I want to make is that there is no such thing as an "unbiased" upbringing, unless you're willing to let you children totally raise themselves.

*WOOSH*

Again, I don't disagree with you on that point. I'm biased on many subjects. You were the one who made this statement a few posts ago (seems like a slight contradiction):

'I was in my late 20s to start reading the Bible for myself with no religious nor atheistic influences so that I could make an unbiased choice on my own.'

So, knowing that some sort of bias exists for everyone (and that you've never really considered any other religion), how are you able to be rock-solid in your belief that your God is the one true god?



Oh, and a little about myself: both of my parents are card carrying democrats (my father was an attorney for NLRB), but I was raised in a Christian household. I was forced to go to church until age 15-16, but the concept never really had me convinced. I started asking many of the quetsions we're discussing now at age 17-18.

 

[Retro Rob]

*WOOSH*

Again, I don't disagree with you on that point. I'm biased on many subjects. You were the one who made this statement a few posts ago (seems like a slight contradiction):

'I was in my late 20s to start reading the Bible for myself with no religious nor atheistic influences so that I could make an unbiased choice on my own.'

That wasn't a contradiction. It wasn't primarily due to upbringing, or I would have never left my beleifs. I needed to firgure some stuff out for myself, so I stopped going.

So, knowing that some sort of bias exists for everyone (and that you've never really considered any other religion), how are you able to be rock-solid in your belief that your God is the one true god?

I just am. Many things in the Bible are actual recorded history. I believe we were created. It wasn't that hard for me.

If you want to question the veracity of my beliefs, suggesting they're false because of where/how they originated is a fallacy, as I can say that the only reason you're an angnostic is because you were born after 1859. Had you been born during Newton's day, you'd be a Catholic.

That proves nothing.

Oh, and a little about myself: both of my parents are card carrying democrats (my father was an attorney for NLRB), but I was raised in a Christian household. I was forced to go to church until age 15-16, but the concept never really had me convinced. I started asking many of the quetsions we're discussing now at age 17-18.

Well, you're supposed to ask questions. To be encouraged not to is wrong.

 

[jhbball]

That wasn't a contradiction. It wasn't primarily due to upbringing, or I would have never left my beleifs. I needed to firgure some stuff out for myself, so I stopped going.



I just am. Many things in the Bible are actual recorded history. I believe we were created. It wasn't that hard for me.

If you want to question the veracity of my beliefs, suggesting they're false because of where/how they originated is a fallacy, as I can say that the only reason you're an angnostic is because you were born after 1859. Had you been born during Newton's day, you'd be a Catholic.

That proves nothing.



Well, you're supposed to ask questions. To be encouraged not to is wrong.

You're right in that it doesn't prove anything to a 100% certainty. But it exposes some of the fundamental flaws about following any religion. To a person that doesn't have religious tunnel vision of sorts, these flaws are difficult to ignore.

And just for reference, many things in the Quran are also recorded history. So really, this isn't evidence that your God is the one true God.

 

[Retro Rob]

You're right in that it doesn't prove anything to a 100% certainty. But it exposes some of the fundamental flaws about following any religion. To a person that doesn't have religious tunnel vision of sorts, these flaws are difficult to ignore.

What fundamental flaws? How is growing up and in an atheist-only household any less flawed than growing up in a Christian-only one?

And just for reference, many things in the Quran are also recorded history. So really, this isn't evidence that your God is the one true God.

Who said the Koran wasn't historically accurate? Again, bringing up Islam is a variation of this fallacy you love to pull. My beliefs aren't true because Islam's is, neither are mine false because Islam's is.

Please, stop bringing it up because it doesn't prove anything nor address mines.

 

[soulcougher73]

What fundamental flaws? How is growing up and in an atheist-only household any less flawed than growing up in a Christian-only one?

My guess would be because in a chrisian household you are going to be told that this is the way things are (bible) etc. In an athiest household i doubt religion would ever be talked about. It would allow for one to think critically about everything in life since you are not exposed to such blinders at a young age as would happen in a christian household.

Again..these debates are pretty pointless because religion clouds your judgement of being logical and rational. You think youre thinking rationally, but you're not.

To steal a quote from a movie i like "It's like the retarded kid that doesnt know he's retarded". That is basically how i view most religious people. They cant help it, its just how they are. So trying to explain things in rational scientific minded ways just flies over their heads.

 

[dphantom]

So trying to explain things in rational scientific minded ways just flies over their heads.

That's interesting because the only way I can do my job is to think very rationally. The notion that Faith is inherently irrational and therefore precludes any rational thought is disingenuous at best.

 

[Retro Rob]

In an athiest household i doubt religion would ever be talked about. It would allow for one to think critically about everything in life since you are not exposed to such blinders at a young age as would happen in a christian household.

Did you say you "could be wrong", not too long ago? That said, how can you be so sure they're "blinders" when you basically left the door open for them to be right?

 

[jhbball]

What fundamental flaws? How is growing up and in an atheist-only household any less flawed than growing up in a Christian-only one?



Who said the Koran wasn't historically accurate? Again, bringing up Islam is a variation of this fallacy you love to pull. My beliefs aren't true because Islam's is, neither are mine false because Islam's is.

Please, stop bringing it up because it doesn't prove anything nor address mines.

I asked to provide a reason as to WHY you believe your Christian God was the one true god, considering you haven't really done ANY research into the other religions. Your answer of course, was this:

'I just am. Many things in the Bible are actual recorded history. I believe we were created. It wasn't that hard for me.'

You provided the 'just because' answer, then proceeded to cite that the bible contains recorded history, as evidence. I was just pointing out that recorded history is found in all of the major religions as well. So, to boil this conversation down:

Rob is knows the Christian god is the one true god. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States 2) he's parents were religious 3) just because.

Did I miss anything?

 

[ThinClient]

Theism is only belief and has no "scripture", code, etc. Me simpy believing in God is just as harmless as your lack of belief.

Religion, OTOH, entails action. You're best served learning the difference.

You believe in something that has no evidence to support the claim that the something exists.

You're spreading irrationality and willful ignorance. You're endorsing intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Retro Rob]

Rob is knows the Christian god is the one true god. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States 2) he's parents were religious 3) just because.

Did I miss anything?

Jhbball is knows that agnoticism is best. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States after 1859 and 2) he couldn't find answers to his questions 3) the Koran is historically accurate

Did I miss anything?

 

[soulcougher73]

Did you say you "could be wrong", not too long ago? That said, how can you be so sure they're "blinders" when you basically left the door open for them to be right?

Big difference me saying I could be wrong and you professing the truth. I admit I could be wrong.

 

[soulcougher73]

Jhbball is knows that agnoticism is best. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States after 1859 and 2) he couldn't find answers to his questions 3) the Koran is historically accurate

Did I miss anything?

You missed answering his questions and deflected as usual. Well done. Par for the course.

 

[Retro Rob]

Big difference me saying I could be wrong and you professing the truth. I admit I could be wrong.

You missed my question. They're not blinders if they could be right. You can't call Islam's teachings "blinders" (suggesting they're completely wrong) right after you admit they could be right by admitting that you could be wrong.

This is what makes, in my opinion, atheism a faith like no other. They're so sure of the wrongness of religion, but then admit that they can't say for certainty whether any god doesn't exists.

We're either wrong about God, or right....which one is it, soulcaugher?

 

[soulcougher73]

You missed my question. They're not blinders if they could be right. You can't call Islam's teachings "blinders" (suggesting they're completely wrong) right after you admit they could be right by admitting that you could be wrong.

This is what makes, in my opinion, atheism a faith like no other. They're so sure of the wrongness of religion, but then admit that they can't say for certainty whether any god doesn't exists.

We're either wrong about God, or right....which one is it, soulcaugher?

That cannot be known for certain, that's the beauty of what religion has set up. What is known of the universe would suggest no God, but that could never be said with 100% surety. Religion focuses on the fear of the unknown and makes some pretty outlandish claims against known reality along the way , science attempts to figure out the unknown.

 

[jhbball]

Jhbball is knows that agnoticism is best. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States after 1859 and 2) he couldn't find answers to his questions 3) the Koran is historically accurate

Did I miss anything?

Here, let me fix that for you:

'Jhbball is knows that agnoticism is best. Why? 1) he happened to be born in the United States after 1859 2) no scientific evidence currently exists proving the existence of a God or Gods or has never observed a 'miracle' 3) he can't disprove the existence of God'