A case for religion, and against AA.

[Retro Rob]

aka, Theism

Theism is only belief and has no "scripture", code, etc. Me simpy believing in God is just as harmless as your lack of belief.

Religion, OTOH, entails action. You're best served learning the difference.

 

[sandorski]

Theism is only belief and has no "scripture", code, etc. Me simpy believing in God is just as harmless as your lack of belief.

Religion, OTOH, entails action. You're best served learning the difference.

Moot. If you are Religious in a Religion that has a Deity, you are a Theist by default.

 

[dphantom]

He, IMO, overstated it. However, can you think of even one incident where killing was done in the Name of Atheism?

It is not my job to prove his assertion. He has been very vocal in here about the very thing he has stated. So he can provide his proof/evidence that validates his assertion.

 

[soulcougher73]

Then I have my answer. You are afraid to admit Jesus existed. Even if he was nothing more than in itinerant preacher built up into something else, the very fact you cannot accept Jesus as even a historical person means you know, without being able to admit it, that Jesus was real. By admitting His existence, you take the first step towards faith, something your atheism abhors. By burying your fear in absolute denial of His very existence, you put lie to your own beliefs.

Yes, you are a man of faith and belief. You can deny it no longer. I can only proay you come to accept that facet of your life.

(Romans 10:9-10) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Im an athiest who believes jesus existed as a person. Opps. There goes your whole arguement. So sorry.

 

[dphantom]

Im an athiest who believes jesus existed as a person. Opps. There goes your whole arguement. So sorry.

I was not arguing with you. It is Sandorski I was trying to understand his motivation for actively denying the very existence of Jesus even sans divinity. If you could actually understand what was written, you would have seen that.

 

[SlowSpyder]

and non-Christians too. Why reject their accounts of Jesus?

Why do you reject accounts of Mohammed?

 

[soulcougher73]

I was not arguing with you. It is Sandorski I was trying to understand his motivation for actively denying the very existence of Jesus even sans divinity. If you could actually understand what was written, you would have seen that.

But that is not even important in the grand scheme of things. What is important are the claims of divinity.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why do you reject accounts of Mohammed?

LOL classic.

Let me ask you straight up: if the accounts of Muhammed are falsified, how does that do anything to disprove Jesus was Divine?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Then I have my answer. You are afraid to admit Jesus existed. Even if he was nothing more than in itinerant preacher built up into something else, the very fact you cannot accept Jesus as even a historical person means you know, without being able to admit it, that Jesus was real. By admitting His existence, you take the first step towards faith, something your atheism abhors. By burying your fear in absolute denial of His very existence, you put lie to your own beliefs.

Yes, you are a man of faith and belief. You can deny it no longer. I can only proay you come to accept that facet of your life.

(Romans 10:9-10) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

I tend to believe there is a better than not chance that he was a real person. But that is a moot point, no one cares about that, we know people live and that's normal day to day business, not miraculous. But now the burden is on the faithful, prove jesus performed the miracles as described in the bible. Prove that even if he did some or all of those miracles, with all the other miracles in other religions (and how you are willing to take miraculous religious happenings at face value, so they also have the possibility of being true), prove those miracles make him the son of god.

There is no reason to believe in christianity until there is some kind of credible evidence. All that there is happens to be a many hundreds year old book that you only have to read the first few paragraphs to see how wrong it is about the history of earth and how man-made it is.

 

[SlowSpyder]

LOL classic.

Let me ask you straight up: if the accounts of Muhammed are falsified, how does that do anything to disprove Jesus was Divine?

That isn't why I asked the question, it doesn't matter if one or the other is true/false (I believe they are both false). What matters is how faithful can expect anyone to get behind jesus with no evidence, but yet they throw away other religion's claims. How did you choose? Why don't you believe the stories of mohammed, but are 100% behind jesus?

When you realize why you don't believe in other religious claims, you'll understand why atheists don't believe in jesus... that was the point.

 

[Retro Rob]

But that is a moot point, no one cares about that, we know people live and that's normal day to day business, not miraculous.

Its far from "moot" as we need to believe he existed before we can believe he has Divine origins.

But now the burden is on the faithful, prove jesus performed the miracles as described in the bible. Prove that even if he did some or all of those miracles, with all the other miracles in other religions (and how you are willing to take miraculous religious happenings at face value, so they also have the possibility of being true), prove those miracles make him the son of god.

You guys think you have a impregnable position with this "prove" he did miracles, (which is why you're so quick to throw it out there) and we simply cannot prove a miracle unless we can repeat it. We cannot repeat it.

The question is whether or not we have a "reason" to believe miracles happened. If God exists, miracles are easy to believe.

I don't have to "prove" miracles happened. Its a request I cannot fulfill, and you pretty much know this, which is why you're completely disregarding the import of Jesus existing.

There is no reason to believe in christianity until there is some kind of credible evidence.

Now you're conflating "proof" and "evidence"...which do you want?

 

[Retro Rob]

When you realize why you don't believe in other religious claims, you'll understand why atheists don't believe in jesus... that was the point.

I don't beleive in other religious claims because I believe that my faith is true.

Are you saying that atheists believe they have the true "faith"?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Its far from "moot" as we need to believe he existed before we can believe he has Divine origins.



You guys think you have a impregnable position with this "prove" he did miracles, (which is why you're so quick to throw it out there) and we simply cannot prove a miracle unless we can repeat it. We cannot repeat it.

The question is whether or not we have a "reason" to believe miracles happened. If God exists, miracles are easy to believe.

I don't have to "prove" miracles happened. Its a request I cannot fulfill, and you pretty much know this, which is why you're completely disregarding the import of Jesus existing.




Now you're conflating "proof" and "evidence"...which do you want?

If you can't provide proof, maybe we can start with even a little credible evidence? As an example, here is an idea. The bible clearly says what the power of prayer can do.

Matthew 21:18-22[3]

Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

If you can pray a mountain to throw itself into the sea through prayer, as an example, I would happily take that as evidence. See, that passage is an incredible claim, that you can pray a mountain to throw itself into the sea, so it would require incredible evidence to believe. Again, the bible comes up short.

I don't beleive in other religious claims because I believe that my faith is true.

Are you saying that atheists believe they have the true "faith"?

No, atheism isn't a religious belief. It is a lack of belief. You use circular logic to confirm your faith is right. Atheists look at evidence and challenge faith directly to try and find the truth... can you pray a mountain into the sea? You say you have faith, jesus/the bible says this can be done if you are a man of faith. You could provide evidence to start my soul on the path of salvation by just doing what the bible says the faithful can do... let's see the evidence.

 

[dphantom]

Why do you reject accounts of Mohammed?

Who said I did?

 

[jhbball]

I don't believe in other religious claims because I believe that my faith is true.

Are you saying that atheists believe they have the true "faith"?

And why do you believe your faith is 'true'? The answer is of course, are the familial/cultural/geographical influences around you, sculpting your beliefs. If you were born in a predominantly Muslim country, you'd believe the Muslim faith is true.

In reality, you're just an atheist just like the rest of us. We just choose not to believe in one more god than you.

 

[Retro Rob]

If you can pray a mountain to throw itself into the sea through prayer, as an example, I would happily take that as evidence. See, that passage is an incredible claim, that you can pray a mountain to throw itself into the sea, so it would require incredible evidence to believe. Again, the bible comes up short.

This why I said, when you mentioned this last time, that you're in desparate need of a Bible course. Jesus was cleary illustrating the power of prayer...not that prayer will cause a literal mountain to throw itself into the sea.

Take a Bible course, please. You don't even understand the basics, yet you're arguing against it.

No, atheism isn't a religious belief. It is a lack of belief. You use circular logic to confirm your faith is right.

You said once I realize why I reject other religious claims, I will then know why athiests do. I reject other religious claims because I find my beliefs to be true.

So in accordance with your statement, atheists likewise believe their faith is true.

You say you have faith, jesus/the bible says this can be done if you are a man of faith. You could provide evidence to start my soul on the path of salvation by just doing what the bible says the faithful can do... let's see the evidence.

Like you said, YOU have to be the man of faith as I cannot do that for you.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Who said I did?

My apologies, I assumed. The way you posted I figured you were christian. But the question can be asked differently to make the same point, and it shouldn't have been directed right at you so much as it is a general question for theists.

Why reject other religions that also have first hand accounts of its prophets?

 

[Retro Rob]

And why do you believe your faith is 'true'? The answer is of course, are the familial/cultural/geographical influences around you, sculpting your beliefs. If you were born in a predominantly Muslim country, you'd believe the Muslim faith is true.

And if I was born in Richard Dawkins home, I'd be an atheist, if I was born in Enstein's home, I'd likely be a Deist.

Genetic Fallcy.

In reality, you're just an atheist just like the rest of us. We just choose not to believe in one more god than you.

So atheists believe in only one God?

 

[SlowSpyder]

This why I said, when you mentioned this last time, that you're in desparate need of a Bible course. Jesus was cleary illustrating the power of prayer...not that prayer will cause a literal mountain to throw itself into the sea.

Take a Bible course, please. You don't even understand the basics, yet you're arguing against it.

No, I understand it perfectly. Are you saying god is not able to move a mountain even if he says the power of prayer can do so? Can you show me something that has happened that there is no other explanation for other than prayer? I don't see any disclaimers on that verse. Show me the power of prayer, show me some evidence. It has been 2000+ years, the majority of humanity is still waiting for some evidence.

You said once I realize why I reject other religious claims, I will then know why athiests do. I reject other religious claims because I find my beliefs to be true.

So in accordance with your statement, atheists likewise believe their faith is true.

Like you said, YOU have to be the man of faith as I cannot do that for you.

No, you'd like your faith to be true, I doubt you've found anything to show it to be true. See, as an atheist I'm completely open to the idea of being wrong if evidence would present itself. You as a theist are bent on bending the world around you to fit into your narrow view of how you'd like it to be so it'll work within the framework of your faith.

I live life not believing in a higher power because there is no evidence, no reason to believe in one. It is the same reason I don't believe that there are giants in the center of the planet holding the continents up, there is no evidence of such claims. If evidence of a higher power or giants in the interior of the planet would present itself, I'd be open to it and more likely to believe. Christians have provided no evidence to support their wild beliefs that don't otherwise seem to jive with critical thinking, logic, or known facts.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

If evidence of a higher power or giants in the interior of the planet would present itself, I'd be open to it and more likely to believe.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2363774

 

[jhbball]

And if I was born in Richard Dawkins home, I'd be an atheist, if I was born in Enstein's home, I'd likely be a Deist.

Genetic Fallcy.



So atheists believe in only one God?

Your reasoning and reading comprehension skills appear to be broken.

 

[Retro Rob]

Your reasoning and reading comprehension skills appear to be broken.

No, because atheists can't falsify anything theists believe in, so they try to falsify it by criticising the orgins of their beliefs.

I went a step further to expose the gravity of your fallacy.

 

[soulcougher73]

This why I said, when you mentioned this last time, that you're in desparate need of a Bible course. Jesus was cleary illustrating the power of prayer...not that prayer will cause a literal mountain to throw itself into the sea.

That is not what was said in that passage. I think you are the one that cannot comprehend basic english and are looking for ways to justify your faith. He said "a person of faith" could literally pray a moutain into the sea, or make a fig tree wither with prayer.

So..get to it..would be incredible to witness.

 

[soulcougher73]

And if I was born in Richard Dawkins home, I'd be an atheist, if I was born in Enstein's home, I'd likely be a Deist.

Genetic Fallcy.



So atheists believe in only one God?

Oh the reading fail is strong in this one. He said "not believe", not "believe"

Jesus fucking Christ

 

[Retro Rob]

Jesus fucking Christ

Stop saying dumb stuff. I cannot be an atheist because I reject all Gods but one -- its a dumb thing to say.