A case for religion, and against AA.

[SlowSpyder]

You have clearly demonstrated the opposite. I am afraid you understand very little about religion, let alone Christianity. But hopefully you will take some of the things we have tried to show and grow from them.

And the same to you.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I bet I know more about christianity the average christian these days.

I would bet that you are totally wrong!
Let me dissect what you said-- I know --in order to know about Christianity you need to have studied scriptures from a Christian view point-- not from an atheists view point!
Then to know the scriptures and understand the context and how to study scriptures.
What you don`t get is that you are dealing with average Christians on these forums.
We are praying that god will open your eyes to the truth.....Peace!!
.

yes we already know that will be cold day as far as your thinking. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[sandorski]

... --in order to know about Christianity you need to have studied scriptures from a Christian view point-- not from an atheists view point!
...

Many of us have done this. However, many of us have also discovered that regardless of the Christian Dogma, there are things in the Bible that just doesn't fit the Dogma.

The Bible itself is easy to understand.

 

[sao123]

I'm fairly sure I wrote somewhere above that it's possible that Jesus exists just not probable. 99.99% of the evidence supporting his existence is based on the bible. You then have an additional couple sources and people use that to account for the second source argument and call it a day. However it's so long after the fact and to me is like the world ending tomorrow and future civilizations only finding the Harry Potter books plus fan fiction and concluding that the former human civilization was made up of Witches and Wizards. They'll write off our demise as Voldemort coming back and wiping us out or something. Someone will find a broken glass ball in the rubble somewhere on earth and conclude that these were in fact the prophesies. A "magic wand" collector item would be found and nobody would ever question the existence of Harry Potter again.

It's kinda absurd. At the same time I can understand how it would happen.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Jesus was not only a man but the son of god. He would have been the most important human being to have ever existed. He would have performed miracles in front of thousands of people. He could defy physics. He could violate the laws of nature. Other magical creatures would have accompanied him.

To truly believe that such an event would not have had every historian alive at the time writing about it is odd. I suppose we can say that all those documents were destroyed. Even if that's the case you have to figure that despite every current document being destroyed there would have been hundreds of other documents that would have surfaced after the fact. Every historian from that point on would probably be writing about it. No. We only have a couple non-biblical sources and they are long after the fact. Worse yet in the case of Tacitus the document we see is a copy of the original and is written about 1100 years later.

If Jesus truly existed he would have fulfilled a prophesy that the Jews had been waiting for hundreds of years for. They weren't impressed apparently. How could they not be impressed by the son of god and all his miracles?

Because they never happened. Because the man probably never existed.

Still spouting the same old drivel after it was demonstrated that historical evidence outside the bible proves a man named Jesus of Nazerath existed?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35990528&postcount=155

 

[AViking]

How can anyone have a discussion if all a few of you do is tell others that you are intellectually superior to them and that no view points can be challenged?

This is not a static subject. As a perfect example the New Testament includes 21 epistles. How many of them are considered forgeries today? I can't remember but of the 13 that are attributed to Paul 7 are considered real and 6 are not.

I think a discussion can be had in this thread without people just ranting and raving about atheists and how you know everything but others don't.

It's a very weak argument when you tell someone "You don't understand" and then leave it at that.

 

[AViking]

Still spouting the same old drivel after it was demonstrated that historical evidence outside the bible proves a man named Jesus of Nazerath existed?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35990528&postcount=155

You are violating the spirit of this section by using an argument from authority.

It's a logical fallacy and is not appropriate in a discussion.

 

[norseamd]

without getting into any of the arguements that made me ignore this thread before jesus most likely existed. those other historical documents make that probable.

what i put in another thread

The Codex Sinaiticus reading of John 9:4 alone is significant to the traditional orthodox interpretation of the omnipotence of the ministry of Jesus Christ. The Codex has, "We must do the works of him who sent us [in place of other manuscripts' 'sent me'] while it is day; night comes, when no man can work."

seems like jesus went from prophet to messiah in the christian relgion. something i have been thinking about is that jesus says he is the child of god but everyone is considered the child of god. considering a whole religion is based around jesus eventually the priests and rulers would want to make him more pwerful and infallible. remember that jesus was likely just one prophet of a whole prophet family. john the baptist was another

 

[soulcougher73]

here we go again -- same old Atheist talking points....yawn!!!

I would bet that you are totally wrong!
Let me dissect what you said-- I know --in order to know about Christianity you need to have studied scriptures from a Christian view point-- not from an atheists view point!
Then to know the scriptures and understand the context and how to study scriptures.
What you don`t get is that you are dealing with average Christians on these forums.
We are praying that god will open your eyes to the truth.....Peace!!
.

yes we already know that will be cold day as far as your thinking. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

Here we go again -- same old Christian talking points...yawn!!

Did i get that right guys? Really hope i dont mess this up.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I would bet that you are totally wrong!
Let me dissect what you said-- I know --in order to know about Christianity you need to have studied scriptures from a Christian view point-- not from an atheists view point!
Then to know the scriptures and understand the context and how to study scriptures.
What you don`t get is that you are dealing with average Christians on these forums.
We are praying that god will open your eyes to the truth.....Peace!!
.

yes we already know that will be cold day as far as your thinking. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

So basically to understand scripture I need to look at it without using critical thinking or logic, then I'll understand?

 

[JD50]

What does "study from a Christian view point" even mean? Aren't you studying the scriptures to learn about Christianity in the first place?

 

[JD50]

So basically to understand scripture I need to look at it without using critical thinking or logic, then I'll understand?

You need to study the scriptures with a view point that can only be obtained by studying the scriptures. Kind of like how the Bible is the word of God because it says it right there in the Bible.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I also don't get how christians just look past the obvious plagiarism in the bible. The story of jesus is basically a collection of stories of deities from older religions.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread290806/pg1


To me it seems so obviously made up. Just because it is socially acceptable and a bunch of like minded people get together Sundays to pat each other on the back and reaffirm that they are correct, doesn't make it real. It seems everyone who believes in heaven is certainly in no hurry to get there.

 

[Retro Rob]

I also don't get how christians just look past the obvious plagiarism in the bible. The story of jesus is basically a collection of stories of deities from older religions.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread290806/pg1


To me it seems so obviously made up. Just because it is socially acceptable and a bunch of like minded people get together Sundays to pat each other on the back and reaffirm that they are correct, doesn't make it real. It seems everyone who believes in heaven is certainly in no hurry to get there.

Hmmm...I though you'd come with some evidence, but just links containing information from people who found correlations/similarties.

Common threads/correlations can be found between virtually any two things...I will grant you that.

When you can prove causation, that's when you've changed the world.

 

[Retro Rob]

What does "study from a Christian view point" even mean? Aren't you studying the scriptures to learn about Christianity in the first place?

Honestly, I don't know what that means. I guess it could mean reading it free of prejudice...and that is what I would have said.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Hmmm...I though you'd come with some evidence, but just links containing information from people who found correlations/similarties.

Common threads/correlations can be found between virtually any two things...I will grant you that.

When you can prove causation, that's when you've changed the world.

Yea, just a couple similarities between them. This is from an older deity than jesus, odd how similar they are. This is just one example, there plenty more like this:

According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yea, just a couple similarities between them. This is from an older deity than jesus, odd how similar they are. This is just one example, there plenty more like this:

Part of your issue, (with Horus specifically) is that early Christians, if they knew anything about the wide-range of stories if Horus, couldn't have based Jesus on that myth is such detail anyway since (IIRC) those were buried under sand until probably the 1800s when we started digging them up.

Secondly, in your link, it was said Horus was baptised by "anup" like Jesus was by John. There is no "anup" in Egyptian mythology, unless you can show me.

So you have a few issues. (1), you'd have to verifiy that your information about Horus isn't made up itself, and (2), you would have to show the Gospel writers not only knew those details about Horus, but deliberately copied them.

I will be waiting. This is why causation matters, and is hard to prove, but it needs to be proved.

 

[OverVolt]

Yea, just a couple similarities between them. This is from an older deity than jesus, odd how similar they are. This is just one example, there plenty more like this:

I haven't taken world religions myself but know people who have. Its not exactly earth shattering news. World religion 101 isn't going to change the faith of 1.2 billion Catholics. One is a religious institution with a little over 1/7 people on the planet as members and the other is some facts in a textbook.

All that stuff aside people still want answers about how to live their lives, etc. And thats what religion is for.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Part of your issue, (with Horus specifically) is that early Christians, if they knew anything about the wide-range of stories if Horus, couldn't have based Jesus on that myth is such detail anyway since (IIRC) those were buried under sand until probably the 1800s when we started digging them up.

Secondly, in your link, it was said Horus was baptised by "anup" like Jesus was by John. There is no "anup" in Egyptian mythology, unless you can show me.

So you have a few issues. (1), you'd have to verifiy that your information about Horus isn't made up itself, and (2), you would have to show the Gospel writers not only knew those details about Horus, but deliberately copied them.

I will be waiting. This is why causation matters, and is hard to prove, but it needs to be proved.

Why did you ignore the krishna information? I have nothing to prove, my links are there to provide information to think about. There were many ancient trading routes (example: incense route), I don't see why you think this information regarding horus would be unavailable to early Isrealites.

Here, let me apply christian logic to this situation: Prove to me that the bible isn't plagiarized, doesn't borrow from these earlier religions. You can't prove it isn't!

 

[SlowSpyder]

I haven't taken world religions myself but know people who have. Its not exactly earth shattering news. World religion 101 isn't going to change the faith of 1.2 billion Catholics. One is a religious institution with a little over 1/7 people on the planet as members and the other is some facts in a textbook.

All that stuff aside people still want answers about how to live their lives, etc. And thats what religion is for.

And that is fine and dandy that some people need a crutch to get through life as long as they keep it to themselves. But none of that makes it real.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why did you ignore the krishna information? I have nothing to prove, my links are there to provide information to think about. There were many ancient trading routes (example: incense route), I don't see why you think this information regarding horus would be unavailable to early Isrealites.

I didn't ignore the information, just haven't reasearched it yet. I can only do one at a time.

My whole point was to damage the credibility of the Horus information for starters, as one of them (Anup) is false, further showing that someone is lying.

I don't know if the Horus information were available to the Jews, which is why you have a problem. I assume it was, but even if that were the case, there is no evidence supporting them copying from it.

Here, let me apply christian logic to this situation: Prove to me that the bible isn't plagiarized, doesn't borrow from these earlier religions. You can't prove it isn't!

lol, this is precisely the reason why I asked for causation, becasue I knew you couldn't provide it.

Heck, you don't even know if all your Horus information is accurate. Someone could have made that up to undermine the Bible -- you're eating it up like its fact.

 

[OverVolt]

And that is fine and dandy that some people need a crutch to get through life as long as they keep it to themselves. But none of that makes it real.

See? Its not a crutch. Religious people are more resilient throughout life, support of community, happy, etc. I really think the atheists have some messed up core beliefs.

If you guys all did a questionnaire on religion it would be less than flattering. We're stupid, need a crutch through life, can't figure out simple logic, like being lied too, for some reason atheists think we believe things that we don't actually believe on LGBT issues. They'll take baptist views and superimpose them over catholic views just to make a point.

Buts its cool atheists don't need religion to have morals and be tolerant. Clearly. Atheists are full of overconfidence these days which is a red flag of ignorance to me.

 

[soulcougher73]

Heck, you don't even know if all your Horus information is accurate. Someone could have made that up to undermine the Bible -- you're eating it up like its fact.

Sound familiar?

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[SlowSpyder]

No, not true. I've actually read quite a bit about similarities between the story of jesus and other, older religions. Some are very anti-christian and certainly go too far trying to prove christianity false (like when they use Dec. 25th as a similarity. That was a date christians borrowed from the pagans to try and bring in more membership, as I understand it. It has nothing to do with scripture). But many of the similarities are eerily similar. Can I prove that ancient Israelites stole that information? No, I absolutely cannot. But that never was my point, my point is for open minded people to think about it...

 

[SlowSpyder]

See? Its not a crutch. Religious people are more resilient throughout life, support of community, happy, etc. I really think the atheists have some messed up core beliefs.

If you guys all did a questionnaire on religion it would be less than flattering. We're stupid, need a crutch through life, can't figure out simple logic, like being lied too, for some reason atheists think we believe things that we don't actually believe on LGBT issues. They'll take baptist views and superimpose them over catholic views just to make a point.

Buts its cool atheists don't need religion to have morals and be tolerant. Clearly. Atheists are full of overconfidence these days which is a red flag of ignorance to me.

Religious people may be all the things you say, it still doesn't make it real. What are my messed up core beliefs?