A bit of history

[piasabird]

Iran a while back tested an underwater missle that looked exactly like a model that the russians have that is designed to carry a warhead and to be used to destroy Air Craft Carriers. I dont think that was a coincidental occurrance. Some people in Russia is Helping Iran develop weapons.

 

[M00T]

The basic idea I found in the book I reference above, was that it's in Iran's best interest to gain aide from Russia because it keeps the U.S. from running over them. Russia gains a proxy by which the U.S. must bypass and Iran gains technology.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dna
Rainsford, this "blame the west" ideology is exactly what Pacepa was writing about. In fact, the propaganda campaign was so successful, that even people in the West think it is the West's fault.

History may point to mistakes done, say in Iraq, but that was a long time ago, and people don't hold a grudge against an enemy they do not see for 60 years, unless they are constantly "reminded". Normal people would blame their own leaders for their problems.

As for Bin-Laden, he sprung allright... sprung from one of the wealthies familises in Saudi Arabia; if he were to address distribution of wealth issue, then he could have used his money to make changes. Instead of that, he went on an ego trip, and is most likely enjoying his position as the head of "Al-Qaeda".

Don't forget, distribution of wealth in the West is hardly uniform, and is becoming less uniform as time goes by; yet we do not see people in the USA or Europe stap bombs on themselves and head for Beverly HIlls. They try harder, drink more, do what can be done.

Please read what I posted again. For some reason you want to narrow this very complex situation down into one set "ideology" where there is one cause, and one cause only. Sorry, but a bumper sticker mentality isn't going to work here. Do I think we need to "blame the West"? Of course not, and you'll note that I never said that. I said that we PLAYED A ROLE...as did the very uneven distribution of wealth, as did the extremist segments of Islam, as did the dictatorial nature of their "leaders" as did the interference of the USSR, etc, etc. People can, and have, written entire books about the problems in the Middle East, and they haven't even scratched the surface. Just because I'm pointing out *A* cause that some people missed does not mean I think it's the ONLY cause, or even the primary one.

I realize that complex answers to complex problems are avoided like the plague in our society, but trust me on this, the problems in the Middle East can't be summed up in some clever phrase about religion, or the west, or Russia, or the Jews, or anything else.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: albatross
is fashionable to blame the US for everything.russia even now helps Iran get nukes but nobody says much about that.
pacepa after he defected,was condemmned to death and his sentence was removed in 1999 ,10 years after the fall of communism because the comunists were still pulling strings.even now he lives hidden under the protection of the US government fearing for his life.


" the distribution of the large amount of wealth there is hardly uniform"
you call his analysis ignorant,when all he does is resume a history seen first hand,and yet you post this.
the terrorists in the US were all poor,right?
distribution of wealth might be an obsession for many,but this has nothing to do with terrorism.

Actually I was calling YOUR analysis of what he said ignorant. He just related history, and I have no doubt it was a major contributing factor, I just reject the idea that it was the ONLY major factor. There is no one answer. Distribution of wealth IS a major factor for low level terrorists in the Middle East, but it is not the only factor even for them, and certainly not the only cause of terrorism. Why is this such a hard concept...I'm just suggesting other factors, not trying to suggest they are the ONLY ones.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: albatross
is fashionable to blame the US for everything.russia even now helps Iran get nukes but nobody says much about that.
pacepa after he defected,was condemmned to death and his sentence was removed in 1999 ,10 years after the fall of communism because the comunists were still pulling strings.even now he lives hidden under the protection of the US government fearing for his life.


" the distribution of the large amount of wealth there is hardly uniform"
you call his analysis ignorant,when all he does is resume a history seen first hand,and yet you post this.
the terrorists in the US were all poor,right?
distribution of wealth might be an obsession for many,but this has nothing to do with terrorism.

Actually I was calling YOUR analysis of what he said ignorant. He just related history, and I have no doubt it was a major contributing factor, I just reject the idea that it was the ONLY major factor. There is no one answer. Distribution of wealth IS a major factor for low level terrorists in the Middle East, but it is not the only factor even for them, and certainly not the only cause of terrorism. Why is this such a hard concept...I'm just suggesting other factors, not trying to suggest they are the ONLY ones.

so who said there are not other factors?

"And blaming it all on the Soviets our your ignorant hatred of the entire religion of Islam"

who said that?only strawmen and no substance.

"Distribution of wealth IS a major factor for low level terrorists in the Middle East"

yeah ,yet another insightful gem.too bad is false.

"US (and our allies) have played a MAJOR role (if not the majority role"
"...I'm just suggesting other factors, not trying to suggest they are the ONLY ones"

spin much?

 

[imported_dna]

I don't know Rainsford -- I think I read your post correctly, and it seemed to me you were dwelling on the West's responsibility.
You give too much credit to their ability to remeber wrongs done to them however many years ago; after all out of sight, out of mind.
I'm forced to to raise the Palestinian issue again: Israel is so ferociously hated, that it is almost unnatural, while Russia doesn't receive such treatment for it's involvement in Chechnia.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: M00T
The basic idea I found in the book I reference above, was that it's in Iran's best interest to gain aide from Russia because it keeps the U.S. from running over them. Russia gains a proxy by which the U.S. must bypass and Iran gains technology.

Not politics or news, you reference work of fiction.
As far as original post, what a load... I would believe in Victor Suvorov's fiction faster than I would believe in this guy's info. Anyone who is old enough can remember that Romania was always an outcast in Warsaw bloc, same Yugoslavia, Ceuscescu modeled his regime after rule of Tito in Yugoslavia and overall wasn't offering much support to Moscow. Whatever info this general was shared with, it most likely is closer to science fiction than reality.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: dna
I don't know Rainsford -- I think I read your post correctly, and it seemed to me you were dwelling on the West's responsibility.
You give too much credit to their ability to remeber wrongs done to them however many years ago; after all out of sight, out of mind.
I'm forced to to raise the Palestinian issue again: Israel is so ferociously hated, that it is almost unnatural, while Russia doesn't receive such treatment for it's involvement in Chechnia.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dna, once again you raise an easy question to rebut---but Chechnia is a must retain state for Russia---because Russia need Chechnia to run a pipeline through. And worse yet there is over a century of genuine hatred for Russia in the Chechin people.

In the 1850's tsarist Russia conquered Chechnia in a bloody fight that exterminated over 50% of its population---during WW2---in an act of collective punishment, Stalin deported the entire Chechin population to Siberia. And now Russia seeks to brutally repress them still.---of all the States Russia has spun off since Gorbachov waved the white flag and conceded the USA won the cold war, only Chechnia still regularly sends terrorists deep into the Soviet Union in bombing missions.

But Israel and Chechnia are polar opposites---in Chechnia's case, their larger neighbor dominates the smaller State totally---in Israel's case, the military of the smaller state fends off the larger neighbors. The only commonality is the hatreds built up and the lesson is that hatreds are dangerous things to keep building up.

My long dead grandmother is a perfect example. She was born in Finland, came to the USA off the boat as a young girl, and hated Russians with a passion--for their brutal rape and occupation of Finland in Tsarist days--nor did the Russian reoccupation of Finland during ww2 soften her outlook. Here I am a third generation American and I don't hate Russia for those old time sins---I doubt their occupation of Chechnia will hold
because they must now pay for the hates they have failed to defuse.--and build up even higher as I write this.

So the same question now comes back to Israel----how does it defuse hatreds now that its military hegmony is starting to slip some.

 

[imported_dna]

Those are grand statements to debunk the head of Intelligence services in Romania, Trianon. Can you offer us more than the argument of common knowledge -- which is the equivalent of using the statement "like, you know" as proof -- to back up your claims?

 

[imported_dna]

Lemon Law, the correct comparison would be Russia & Chechnia and Israel & Palestinians. Any other countries in the equation are simply meddling in issues not pertaining to them.
I didn't ask for the history of Chechnia, so try to stay on subject next time.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: dna
Those are grand statements to debunk the head of Intelligence services in Romania, Trianon. Can you offer us more than the argument of common knowledge -- which is the equivalent of using the statement "like, you know" as proof -- to back up your claims?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe thats exactly the problem dna---you seem to think this mid-east problem will be solved factually or with a military solution----and like the last Russian Tsar, like the Shah
of Iran, or endless other examples, you will just wake up one day and find your old safe world of conventional wisdom is gone---and is replaced by a mob of confused people ruled by emotion.

Never underestimate emotion as a driving force---but right now its dangeriously high on both the Arab and Israelie side.

If you want a prediction on what will happen---you won't get one from me---because when emotion explodes anything can happen---and after things calm down---very few on either side will like the new world they find themselves in.

 

[imported_dna]

Lemon Law, what are you doing wasting your talent in online forums? You should be writing poetry, and short stories for kids.
But I digress; the actual question was on how come Muslims as far as Malasia hate Israel so much, while there isn't a single peep regarding Russia and Chechnia.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Maybe thats exactly the problem dna---you seem to think this mid-east problem will be solved factually or with a military solution----and like the last Russian Tsar, like the Shah
of Iran, or endless other examples, you will just wake up one day and find your old safe world of conventional wisdom is gone---and is replaced by a mob of confused people ruled by emotion.

Never underestimate emotion as a driving force---but right now its dangeriously high on both the Arab and Israelie side.

If you want a prediction on what will happen---you won't get one from me---because when emotion explodes anything can happen---and after things calm down---very few on either side will like the new world they find themselves in.

There was a time when we beat hostile forces into submission. Apparently we?ve long since lost the will to do that if it came down to our own survival. If an entire country were to rise up as a military force, an entire country should be put down ? numbers are not a terribly big challenge given today?s explosives. It?s our unwillingness to use our capabilities that drives any military loss at the hands of Jihad.

Of course, over time they will catch up with us in military strength. Then it will truly be known just how far they are willing to go with suicidal attacks or if they?re willing to show the restraint on themselves that we are doing to ourselves.

As for the prospect of changing or winning over their hearts and minds. Perhaps this cannot be done while they have institutions in place preaching hatred from their media to radical religious teachings calling for jihad.

 

[Lemon law]

You are just looking for the hatreds in the wrong places----US news just does not often address the issue---and the Chechin rebels don't court the media----but you can bet your butt that the hatreds exist.

Now go peddle your papers to those Russian parents who wonder why their own kids were killed in Beslan as I recall.--------is that logical?---are those children blameless?---or is it like the Lebanese, their parents didn't stop their fellow Russians from attacking Chechins.---and now must pay the collective guilt price.

The only thing that matters in the end is that those innocent children are dead.------and it did happen.---driven by built up hatreds.

Did the Russian Tzar who invaded Chechnia in 1850 connect the dots and say if I do this then kids in Beslan will end up dead?

 

[imported_dna]

I'm not looking for hatered, I'm merely trying to open your eyes, which are apparently sewn shut.
You are no better than the clown on the DailyKos, which posted an entry titled "Imagine a World without Israel", where he proceeded to describe an utopian world, where everybody lives in peace.
Without Israel there, these people will either turn on each other, or start exporting their terror to European countries.
You keep talking about curing the symptoms, while I say we need to cure the cause -- corruption that utilizes religion and propaganda to create hatered; all this for the sake of staying in power.

 

[Lemon law]

I agree with you dna that much could be done to change the arab who stays in power by exploiting hatreds of Israel.

But what I find amazing is exactly zero insight by your Israelie side that there are things Israel can do by changing its behavior.

So far its ALL change the arab and zero change Israel----ever get a feeling it might be some of both?

 

[imported_dna]

Well, I believe the prevailing opinion is that Israel can do only one thing -- cease to exist.

Israel had already made an attempt with the Oslo agreement in 1993, and what came out of that? A lot more terror.
The PA and Arafat had plenty of time to make progress, yet money was diverted, and hate propaganda was intensified.

So at the end of the day it's quite different than how you present it -- Israel tried something, and the Palestinian leaders did zero.

 

[Lemon law]

No dna,

You had Arafat close to signing---he already gagged when he had to even recognize the State of Israel's right to exist---but when the right to return was not on the table. That was something he could not accept----wise---unwise--who knows but its still past history.

That was then and this is now---and the levels of hatred has risen---what is it going to take to get a deal?---short of simply ceasing to exist----your bargaining position now is better than its likely to be in future.

 

[imported_dna]

I always like the way you segue from that past to the present, as if we are talking about ancient Babelonian history.
The right of return is baloney. Due to the simple fact that Jews that were forced out of the Arab states in 1948 we're not compenstated, I see very little reason to compensate Palestinians which wilfully left, at the behest of the Arab League.

 

[Lemon law]

Well YOU SEE---as if you were the chief Israelie negotiator.---and regardless if you think the right to return is baloney or not, its an issue none the less. But maybe the Israelie should be thrilled that they are no longer dealing with corrupt arabs in the form of the Fatah party---and now you deal with the freely elected Hamas.

Here we are with GWB the avowed champion of democracy in the mid-east and Israel is running around arresting those elected officials.---and with the blessing of GWB---more conformation that GWB is the biggest hypocrite in modern times----and the greatest friend the terrorist ever had---GWB must truly love terrorists---look how many he is creating. I profoundly hope GWB is soon rejected in the USA---his days cannot last much longer---with the only remaining question being how does the world repair the damages his stupidy has spawned.---the elections in 11/06 could be an important turning point.

If you think I am a terrorism fan you are totally out of your mind---but I do understand a losing strategy when I see it-----and I recommend the following---as a person and not as any
authority----(1) Hamas was elected---deal with them. Free up the funds Israel is stealing and is not authorised to hold. (2) Get the settlers off disputed land set aside by the Oslo accords---yesterday--failing that right now.--let any Israelie who takes pot shots at anybody know that they will be charged with a crime (3) As a good will gesture start releasing uncharged indivuals in Israelie jails---either charge them with crime or release them. (4) Start talking about a Palistinian State and be prepared to fund part of it--make it clear other Arab state will be expected to do their bit or they will will pay in public opinion (5) Start forging trading links with your neighbors. (6) Start opening up honest peace talks based on whats is fair. (7) Maybe pay some Palistinians to help rebuild Lebanon---which will at least bring hope and work. (7) With some real foreign relations finesse---Israel could even become a counterbalance to Syrian influence in Lebanon---but Israel has some serious catch up it better do first.

Those kinds of actions might get some movement in a peace process everyone can live with---and start a slow process to defusing the hatreds that terrorism needs to thrive.

 

[imported_dna]

I absolutely love it!
Whenever someone raises the issue of refugees/land, and I counter with the Jewish Refugee issue and the Arab Leagues calls for Palestinian evacuation -- I never seem to get an answer. :roll:

For all the text you typed, you negelected one thing: you forgot to say what the PA will have to do. Regardless, we know what they signed for at Oslo, and we also know they have yet to recognize Israel, remove clauses calling for Israel's destruction, eliminate militias, and cease instilling hate in children.

Nevertheless, I'll address some of your points.

• Hamas may have been democratically elected, but so was Hitler (intentionally compared due to the Nazi style tactics used by Hamas)
• Being democratically elected does not absolve you from the responsibility for past crimes (or present, as in the case of these guys)
• Charge people with a crime for criticizing? You gotta be joking! That is ridicilous for its own merit, as well as when you compare with the hate being taught on the othe side, and is state sponsored.
• Fund the Palestinian state? I don't think so. Let them recoup the aid money stolen by their corrupt pals, and let the Arab League pay, since they called onto them to leave their homes 60 years ago.
• Pay to rebuild Lebanon? Hah! How about Hezbollah lookup the receipts for the weapons they have left, try to return it for cash, and use that money to rebuild.

I'm patiently awaiting your answer, so I may see how you avoid addressing the issues I mention at the top of this message.

 

[Lemon law]

To dna,

I gave you some suggestions---you choose to reject them ALL---now you can just sit back and watch the terrorism grow.---secure in the knowledge you are doing the right thing.

 

[imported_dna]

Lemon Law,

Thank you for not disappointing me, and avoiding the issues I mentioned.

 

[Lemon law]

I won't set any agendas dna---but the issues you raise will also be countered by the right to return--maybe a compromise can be reached there?

But I remain convinced your way involves all take and no give by Israel---which may play well in Israel---and go over like a lead balloon everywhere else.

Your measure of sucess will be in the shrinkage in terrorism aimed at the State of Israel------I wish you luck.

Maybe at some future time you will count the terrorists and find you have more and not less dedicated to your destruction---plus finding them using better tactics as well---and possibly understanding then what I am saying now.

But you clearly are not ready for that message yet.

Alternately I may prove to be wrong---and in fact I hope I am.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I won't set any agendas dna---but the issues you raise will also be countered by the right to return--maybe a compromise can be reached there?

Ah, but that's where you are wrong -- you set the agenda, you mentioned the right of return, and in fact it is always mentioned when the issue of Palestine comes up. Perhaps this is what Pacepa meant by "victimology" in the article -- the constant whining and bickering about something.

The compromise is simple: forget about any right of return or any compensation. The number of Palestinians left is roughly equivalent to the number of Jews kicked out, and which ended up in Israel. it's a fair trade. The refugees in the adjacent countries should be given citizenship (it's about damn time) like Jordan did, and assume responsibility for calling them to leave and starting a war.

This should be a good start, but it will never happen.