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A bit of history

Albatross

Albatross

Platinum Member
Text
the author is Pacepa,the highest ranking communist official working for a secret service to defect to the west.

The Kremlin may be the main winner in the Lebanon war. Israel has been attacked with Soviet Kalashnikovs and Katyushas, Russian Fajr-1 and Fajr-3 rockets, Russian AT-5 Spandrel antitank missiles and Kornet antitank rockets. Russia?s outmoded weapons are now all the rage with terrorists everywhere in the world, and the bad guys know exactly where to get them

1972, the Kremlin decided to turn the whole Islamic world against Israel and the U.S. As KGB chairman Yury Andropov told me, a billion adversaries could inflict far greater damage on America than could a few millions. We needed to instill a Nazi-style hatred for the Jews throughout the Islamic world, and to turn this weapon of the emotions into a terrorist bloodbath against Israel and its main supporter, the United States.
 
now the KGB is taking the credit for international terrorism? Please. Terrorism was alive and kicking before there was a KGB and it will be here long after there is a Russia.
 
Originally posted by: Dari
now the KGB is taking the credit for international terrorism? Please. Terrorism was alive and kicking before there was a KGB and it will be here long after there is a Russia.
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islamic terrorism.read the piece pls.
 
It's a little too full of braggatry for me to take seriously. Anyone who believes that the soviets rather than Islamic tradition and text is the prime cause of Islamism is very likely wrong
 
the KGB poked the beast.of course it worked because of islamic tradition.again read it.

"Their task was to export a rabid, demented hatred for American Zionism by manipulating the ancestral abhorrence for Jews felt by the people in that part of the world"

"According to Andropov, the Islamic world was a waiting petri dish in which we could nurture a virulent strain of America-hatred, grown from the bacterium of Marxist-Leninist thought. Islamic anti-Semitism ran deep. The Muslims had a taste for nationalism, jingoism, and victimology. Their illiterate, oppressed mobs could be whipped up to a fever pitch"
 
Lets start out with the premise---that I want to be a terrorist---here I am in an undisclosed location somewhere in the middle of the USA---and no one suspects me.

In terms of the amount of property damage I could do---without killing anyone---is something I hardly have to even think about before I have a superlong list of targets I can attack using just common household items I can buy over the counter at any store. The amount of human misery I could cause is staggering in scope. If I care to remove killing human beings as something I would not care to do, the list of targets and damage
I could do gets much longer---I could even turn my mind to killing with grace, art, and dramic flair.

The point is that I have exactly zero desire to become a terrorist---and hence am not a danger to myself or others----but when you have a society with very many people who ARE ANGRY ENOUGH TO BECOME TERRORISTS---then that society the terrorist targets had better start to worry----by that measure Tim McVeigh was a US terrorist---in his mind avenging both Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians---by targeting a branch office of the ATF. In Iraq the terrorist started out as only one person or so in five thousand---that proportion has grown some since---and also swelling those ranks are people who want to use terrorism as a road to political power.---and hence only pretend to share the terrorist's agenda.

The other point made in this thread is that foreign governments will arm, train, and supply
terrorists to advance their ends in foreign lands---something both the US and Russia have done and continue to do.

And to my knowledge---the ealiest historical reference to terrorism is over 6000 years old.---------so why label terrorism as Islamofacist when terrorism is and always will be equal opportunity employer.

But when you have plenty of terrorism---its also a sign that some pretty powerful injustices exist in the larger society---remove the injustices and defuse the terrorist numbers to near zero.

With the latter point pointing out the falacy of collective guilt---even if I understand why Tim McVeigh did bomb the Federal building---I had no pre-knowledge of the attack---and why should I feel an iota of shared guilt regarding this attack.---and that same innocence I share with nearly every one of my fellow US citizens---and yet some say the Iraqi people share a common guilt---or the Palistinians---or whoever--for acts of terrorism commited by others in their society.
 
I don't know -- this doesn't seem like bragging at all, especially when the man says:
We in the Soviet bloc tried to conquer minds, because we knew we could not win any military battles
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He also mentions arms transfers that are corroborated by records found in East Germany.

By the way, this man was the head of the intelligence services in Romania.
 
Originally posted by: dna
I don't know -- this doesn't seem like bragging at all, especially when the man says:
We in the Soviet bloc tried to conquer minds, because we knew we could not win any military battles
Click to expand...
He also mentions arms transfers that are corroborated by records found in East Germany.

By the way, this man was the head of the intelligence services in Romania.
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And I wait with baited breath for dna to explain to the rest of us why the military might of the state of Israel started with terrorists, with no less than three of those terrorist later becoming prime ministers of the State of Israel, and above all why the State of Israel is morally superior to that of the Soviet Union as SOME officials of both nations used terrorists tactics.

Is it perhaps due to the fact that the Israelies acheived local military hegmony and the Soviet Union failed that hegmony test on a larger world stage?

 
I'm not sure how much credibility I can give that...especially since anti-semitism has been around since civilizations began. There hasn't been a more universally hated enemy (except maybe now for GWB).
 
That's some pretty ignorant analysis. While it may be convenient to blame the Soviets, or inborn negative qualities of Islam, the fact is that the US (and our allies) have played a MAJOR role (if not the majority role) in shaping the current problems in the Middle East. The terrorists in Afghanistan were largely trained and organized with help from the US to FIGHT the Soviet Union. The sectarian violence in Iraq can at least partially be blamed on the legacy of the British screwing around in that country like it was their own personal playground. If you're wondering why they don't seem to want the US in their country very much, you might ask them just how much we supported their fight against Saddam like we said we would...whoops, sorry about that folks, we were just kidding...to bad so many of you died. And lest we forget, our big arch-enemy (Iran) holds so much hatred for the US in part because we decided that we knew best what kind of government they needed not too long ago, before bringing democracy to the Middle East was all the rage...oh yes, and arming their enemy (Iraq) with WMDs probably didn't help a whole lot either.

I'm not defending terrorism or saying that being pissed off makes it ok to fly planes into buildings, but people who just throw up their hands and wonder why the Middle East is such a hotbed of anti-American and anti-Western feelings need to engage their brains a little more. And blaming it all on the Soviets our your ignorant hatred of the entire religion of Islam, while easy and convenient, isn't really a good answer.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
That's some pretty ignorant analysis.
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Give the man some credit, after all he was high-up in the ranks, and was privy to a lot more information than we will ever be. Besides, some of his points seem to be right on target, e.g.:
The Muslims had a taste for nationalism, jingoism, and victimology. Their illiterate, oppressed mobs could be whipped up to a fever pitch.
Click to expand...
We've seen the results of the Muhammed cartoons not so long ago. (Sandmonkey has an insightful post on that)

Perhaps it wasn't all due to Soviet machination, but training, finanace, supply, and intelligence can turn a group of misfits into capable soldiers; don't forget that even the Jewish settlers in Israel had their skills honed by more than one outsider.

Also, what he says regarding the Protocols of the Elders of Zion checks out, and fact that every Arab/Muslim in the world is convinced that the USA is controlled by Zionists also is in line with his claims; I don't think I've seen a single rally where only Israel's flag was burned without the US flag being burned as well (or vice versa).
 
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Rainsford
That's some pretty ignorant analysis.
Click to expand...

Give the man some credit, after all he was high-up in the ranks, and was privy to a lot more information than we will ever be. Besides, some of his points seem to be right on target, e.g.:
The Muslims had a taste for nationalism, jingoism, and victimology. Their illiterate, oppressed mobs could be whipped up to a fever pitch.
Click to expand...
We've seen the results of the Muhammed cartoons not so long ago. (Sandmonkey has an insightful post on that)

Perhaps it wasn't all due to Soviet machination, but training, finanace, supply, and intelligence can turn a group of misfits into capable soldiers; don't forget that even the Jewish settlers in Israel had their skills honed by more than one outsider.

Also, what he says regarding the Protocols of the Elders of Zion checks out, and fact that every Arab/Muslim in the world is convinced that the USA is controlled by Zionists also is in line with his claims; I don't think I've seen a single rally where only Israel's flag was burned without the US flag being burned as well (or vice versa).
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that he's totally off base or that our actions in past are the ONLY factor. It's a complex situation, and it's very true that Russia played a big part, and it's also at least partially true that people in that region of the world seem particularly eager to become engraged "victims" (although it's a mistake to suggest that their religion is the only, or even primary, reason for this). I'm just saying that ignoring our own contribution to the current situation is a great way to assure that we keep doing stupid ass stuff that moves us away from a peaceful Middle East.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about, I have to give a big hand to the growing movement in the US to just say to hell with it an declare holy war on the entire religion of Islam. Because if there is a great way to deal with a few billion deeply religious people who aren't especially fond of us, it's got to be suggesting we need to start fighting a holy war against their religion...that ought to turn out swell.
 
I still think you're overplaying what "we did to them", and ignoring what they do to themselves, or to be more precise: their leaders. Iran hasn't been under US influence for a while, so one has to wonder why they have hate-cartoons against the US and Israel. If we look at Egypt, then one has to wonder what do they have against the USA, even while the US is giving them financial aid; here are the words of a cleric:
Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti: As you know, the enemy in this war appears to be Israel, but, as everyone knows, the fighting enemy is actually America. Israel is merely the claw of America in this war. People who cannot stand with their fighting brothers can still fight. They can carry out other actions.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the propaganda machine is running at full steam, and no wonder -- they to keep repeating the message so it doesn't fade, and in order to distract the populace from other things. It's not like kids in Egypt have innate hatered to Israel or the USA because of what happened 5, 10, or 50 years ago -- it was instilled in them.

CORRECTION EDIT: the cleric mentioned above is not Egyptian, but Syrian; nontheless, my argument still holds regarding children and instilled hatered.
 
sorry to bombard the thread with so many posts, but here's another recent example:
Interviewer: Who do you think is behind the [Samarra mosque] bombing?

Muqtada Al-Sadr: The hand that holds the weapons is always America or Israel, or the accursed triangle of Israel, America, and Britain. But the weapon itself may change. It may be those tho accuse others of heresy, it may be the Ba'thists, and it may be others, only Allah knows.
Click to expand...
I'm 100% certain that he knows it was Sunnis, yet he puts the spin on it in order to blame Israel, the US, and Britain; by keeping the Anti-Israel/US rhetoric alive and strong, he is prepared for whatever outcome there will be in Iraq -- if somehow the Sunni and Shiite declare a truce and mend their differences, he has a ready scapegoat, or target for the masses: he could declare (jointly with the Sunnis) that it was indeed Israel/US/UK that was responsible for the bombing, and needless to say, all hell will break loose all over again.
 
To dna,

You can site various idiots large and small in the arab world until you are totally blue in the face---and you are well on your way.---I have also note you don't cite similar Israelie idiots who are equally nutty.---that now seems to be the voice of your government. But I have yet to see you have any meaningful insight into why Israel is hated in the arab world---and I have yet to see you offer any contructive proposal for solving the mid-east problem.

For all you have written---it seems to me---having no understanding of the legitimate concerns of the other side or constructive proposals is a pretty damning indictment.
 
Lemon Law, how about you go and find some quotes of an Israeli idiot, and then we talk about it?
However, you'll have to find remarks on the same magnitude, and by someone equally high up the ladder (I'd say Sadr is almost at the top).
After you come back with nothing I'll explain to you how in Israel a person making such remarks would be immediately criticized by others, while in the Arab world, whoever dares criticize probably ends up dead.

As for meaningful insights, I see that what I wrote didn't register with you, so here is a simple explanation:
1) Get them youg
2) Brainwash
3) Repeat

If the youth in Egypt are so attuned to suffering of fellow Muslims around the world, shouldn't we have seen by now riots, and pure hatered towards the Sunni and Shiite leaders in Iraq? You know, the kind of outburst we've become accustomed to whenever something happens to a Palestinian. Do you think there were outbursts when Saddam slaughtered over 100 thousands Shiites?

My proposal -- for starters, don't allow any more of this hate propaganda.

I await for you to tell me what are the legitimate concerns that people in Egypt have in respect to Israel, and how they do not apply to Iraq now, or how they did no apply to Iraq when Saddam was in charge.
 
Originally posted by: dna
I still think you're overplaying what "we did to them", and ignoring what they do to themselves, or to be more precise: their leaders. Iran hasn't been under US influence for a while, so one has to wonder why they have hate-cartoons against the US and Israel. If we look at Egypt, then one has to wonder what do they have against the USA, even while the US is giving them financial aid; here are the words of a cleric:
Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Bouti: As you know, the enemy in this war appears to be Israel, but, as everyone knows, the fighting enemy is actually America. Israel is merely the claw of America in this war. People who cannot stand with their fighting brothers can still fight. They can carry out other actions.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the propaganda machine is running at full steam, and no wonder -- they to keep repeating the message so it doesn't fade, and in order to distract the populace from other things. It's not like kids in Egypt have innate hatered to Israel or the USA because of what happened 5, 10, or 50 years ago -- it was instilled in them.

CORRECTION EDIT: the cleric mentioned above is not Egyptian, but Syrian; nontheless, my argument still holds regarding children and instilled hatered.
Click to expand...

I am not ignoring the role local leaders play in the problems in the Middle East. In fact, of the factors in play TODAY, I'd say they are most responsible for the attitudes of the common people. Whether they are leaders who benefit personally from fanning the flames of anti-US sentiment or simply dictatorial regimes that make the common people want to lash out at someone, anyone, thus paving the way for more unofficial wackos like Osama bin Laden, the current "leadership" in the Middle East does not have among their number a single individual worthy of being followed. If there wouldn't be unintended ramifications as a result, I'd say out best bet for peace in the Middle East would be to pop the whole lot of them (the leaders, I mean) and start all over.

But here's why I don't think we deserve to get off the hook on this one. There is a reason people like Osama have followers. Part of that is the conditions a lot of people in the Middle East live in, the distribution of the large amount of wealth there is hardly uniform, and part of it is misplaced religious faith that confuses following individuals who claim to speak for your religion with following the tenets of the religion itself (a common problem here as well). But a big part of it IS our history in the region, a history that does very little to cast us in a positive light. Think about it...if our role in the region had some positive traits as well as the negative ones, more moderate forces in the Middle East could point those out when the radical extremists talk about how America has brought nothing but problems to the region. But they can't, because we really HAVEN'T brought many good things to that part of the world. It's true, a lot of that is in the past, but not every culture forgets things as quickly as we do, and there are very few positive experiences to take the place of those negative ones in any case. The US and Japan can get along today, despite Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, mostly because we've had a long history of positive and mutually beneficial cooperation since then. It's been a while since we gave weapons to Saddam to kill Iranians and Iraqis with, and we're not as total in our support of non-democratic regimes like the one in Saudi Arabia as we were before...but if that's all people remember, it's because we haven't DONE anything positive in the region for them to replace those memories with.

Like you said, a lot of it IS propaganda, and it's really a big catch-22. After all, how "helpful" can we be towards a country like Iran if they aren't going to take a step back from crazy rhetoric? But still, the popularity of extremism didn't spring out of nothing fully formed, it came, like all radical movements, from the few members of any society that are a bunch of ranting lunatics. But unlike the ranting loons in our country, the ones in the Middle East have some credibility for a number of reasons...including the fact that we helped give it to them.
 
Well lets see dna---get um young, brainwash, repeat---why I seem to recall a recent Anand tech thread to the effect that children of settlers were taking pot shots at UN workers and Israelie troops were not stopping them. But that whole settlers group is what drives Israelie politics lately---including Sharon---who is quoted as saying when they know every wadi and dip in the land they will never give it back--and was quite arguable an international war criminal for various massacures in Lebanon.---but even the old Lion Sharon was finally getting it and realising how shortsighted his policies were--and was standing up to the settlers before a stroke felled him---and now this latest Lebanese incursion seems to have pushed Israel even further to the right---and into a curious lala land of total unreality.---so your get em young--brainwash them---does seem to apply to Israelie settlers also.

But this censor hate propaganda is also a difference between you and I. I believe propaganda best thrives in the dark---and is best countered with the truth. In a free marketplace of ideas, the uninnoculated mind is always subject to one sided views---and ones own brain and logic are the best defense---so I delight in demolishing phony logic. I try to see both sides
and you try to sell just your side.

I seem to recall a recent thread in which I agreed with you that the arabs were also shamelessly exploiting the Palistinians----an you were just eating it up until I suggested it was Israels golden opportunity to give the Palistinian a way up---and at that point I totally lost you.

In terms of that Egypt or Iraq question---they are regional players for sure---but you would have to look under the belly of snakes to find a nation more popular with the man on the street there than Israel---and Propaganda or not---that should concern any in Israel--in terms of countering that propaganda---deeds like a Palistinian state, rising hopes for peace, working on common interests, and a just mid-east peace might do wonders to change perceptions.---as in truth not propaganda.

Or to put it in terms you might better understand---as the Palistinian people go---so goes Israel---until you elevate them---you can't elevate Israel---consider them the huge boat anchor that prevents Israel from benefitting from the "a rising tide lifts all boats conventional wisdom."
 
is fashionable to blame the US for everything.russia even now helps Iran get nukes but nobody says much about that.
pacepa after he defected,was condemmned to death and his sentence was removed in 1999 ,10 years after the fall of communism because the comunists were still pulling strings.even now he lives hidden under the protection of the US government fearing for his life.


" the distribution of the large amount of wealth there is hardly uniform"
you call his analysis ignorant,when all he does is resume a history seen first hand,and yet you post this.
the terrorists in the US were all poor,right?
distribution of wealth might be an obsession for many,but this has nothing to do with terrorism.
 
Yet again, Lemon Law, too much rhetoric.
You've managed to fill half the screen, and talk about snakes, without addressing the essential question: why are they brainwashing in Egypt?
Nevertheless, thanks for pointing out the obvious, and stating the Israel isn't popular in Egypt or Iran.
 
Rainsford, this "blame the west" ideology is exactly what Pacepa was writing about. In fact, the propaganda campaign was so successful, that even people in the West think it is the West's fault.

History may point to mistakes done, say in Iraq, but that was a long time ago, and people don't hold a grudge against an enemy they do not see for 60 years, unless they are constantly "reminded". Normal people would blame their own leaders for their problems.

As for Bin-Laden, he sprung allright... sprung from one of the wealthies familises in Saudi Arabia; if he were to address distribution of wealth issue, then he could have used his money to make changes. Instead of that, he went on an ego trip, and is most likely enjoying his position as the head of "Al-Qaeda".

Don't forget, distribution of wealth in the West is hardly uniform, and is becoming less uniform as time goes by; yet we do not see people in the USA or Europe stap bombs on themselves and head for Beverly HIlls. They try harder, drink more, do what can be done.
 
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