A $35,000 MSRP Base Honda Civic (Gas Engine)

[Casawi]

Originally posted by: MercenaryYoureFired
Gotta love crazy people.

😀

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

We will be ok eventually, soon we will be able to afford the $8,000 cars coming from China. Wal mart is your new used car salesman.

EDIT: I want to make one thing clear, I hope this is a nominee for the ownage of the year thread with me being the one owned. If that happens, that means things will be ok, but right now, I just don't see it.

I would rather that unions here NOT cease and desist. It's the fact that they turned into pigs and started swimming in their own greed. The Auto unions need to concede some of the wealth, and get with what other companies have had to do to survive. For one, the overly generous retiree benefits have to be axed.

 

[rudder]

A lot of Nissan employees are down to 32 hours a week. If the big 3 went down... Nissan in Tennessee could easy goto 3 shifts and pump out a hella lotta cars. That's just one plant... I am sure all the other manufacturers could ramp up as well.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: TipsyMcStagger
They file chapter 11 and restructure. All three companies have assets (cars, factories, technology, etc) that can be used in the future to build more cars. Some of those factories might even be sold to car manufacturers that have always wanted to break into the US market but haven't had the ability to do so previously. The factories aren't going to just disappear. There's still a use, they will be used by restructured big 3 or sold to other companies that will make cars. There will be a short term job loss, but it will recover as those factories get placed back in service one way or another.

and just who is going to provide the financing for a ch 11 restructuring? Odds are, with the current financial climate, any bankruptcy would proceed directly to chapter 7 liquidation. And who is going to buy the liquidated parts in a market collapse? Probably no one, at least not until the selling price is cents on the dollar, and then their (former) suppliers get raped on their accounts receivable, bondholders get raped, etc. Personally i think if it was assured that GM would go under no matter what, it would be worth 25 billion to put it off for a year when the economy isn't in such a bad macro state.

 

[theeedude]

Once the Japanese bankrupt the Big 3, they will have no more political incentive to build production in the US. They'll just move it somewhere cheaper like every other US based manufacturer has been doing. The reason they've been building it in the US is to counteract the political clout of the Big 3. Too bad they built it in the South, and Dumbfvckistan is not going to have as much pull as it has in the next Congress.

 

[Gothgar]

Originally posted by: randay
is this fucking P&N or some shit?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: mcmilljb
A quality, inexpensive, and fuel efficient car is what America really wants from auto makers, and the big 3 have been clinging to the SUV's. Those SUV's are not practical to people any more with crossovers becoming a available. Unless you need a Tahoe to tow your boat or etc, you can get a Mazda CX-9 with all the same features and it's cheaper. I believe the cars can be made in America or any where else in the world (except China if you want quality). I say it's possible because the automotive industry is pretty standardized, and they know what works best and what doesn't. They just need to quit worrying about cutting a few dollars off to make a few extra bucks now. Imagine the costs you could cut if the car is so reliable that you can have people buying used ones that the makers recertify and can actually be used for quite a while longer? Some recertified cars just look like they slap on a short warranty after just checking the fluids. Really make it mean something, hell call it car recycling if you want lol.

If you recall, the public was demanding SUV's, they didn't buy them because there weren't 'quality, inexpensive, and fuel efficient car(s)' available, there were, there are, and they didn't really sell well until last January or so. Everyone was racing to get into the market, particularly the heavy truck market, because that what people wanted and thats what they were buying. Hence honda, nissan, and particularly toyota went after that market, and when gas/oil spiked, they got hit hard as well.

The Big 3 and UAW need to admit they screwed up. They haven't even admitted to that yet. If you can't admit that you were wrong, how are you going to start taking hard concessions it will take to fix this problem? I think the public would rally around them if they started there. The next thing they need to do is the "impossible" which is learning to be more dynamic. They all use single platforms on multiple different models. Learn to make it easier to adapt a platform to different brands. They don't need to be revolutionary all the time, but they definitely can be evolutionary more often. We have all these fancy super computers, and they can't use them improve and refine the current models while R&D is creating the next model?

they have, they have, they don't, they have

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

Originally posted by: Rage187
down with the UAW. That is the real reason the big 3 failed.

union and legacy costs are like $600 per car sold, and while thats alot of money, the publics broken image makes them have to seel their cars for about 2500 less than the equivalent foreign maker. Furthermore, much of that extra cost is simply due to the fact that they operate in higher wage areas of the country and have been around long enough to have accumulated legacy costs, which honda/toyota and nissan eventually will as well.

In reality, the current hard-on people have for hating unions probably hurt GM as much as the union 'did'

 

[thomsbrain]

OR...

Maybe SOMEBODY will buy up those empty factories at a vastly discounted rate and hire those experienced out-of-work builders and use them to build MORE Civics. You know, maybe one of those companies who is still doing well. One of them who benefits from the yen-to-dollar exchange. One of them who builds cars people want. One of them who is already familiar with economies of scale and efficient part-sharing and can therefore make those Civics even CHEAPER than ever before.

Because let's be honest here. The Big Three haven't been a serious competitor to Honda or the other big Japanese imports in the small car market for decades. If Honda's biggest competitor is Toyota, how much does it really matter if Dodge stops selling their 12 Calibers per month?

Just a thought.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
snip

Just how many cars/trucks do you think the Big 3 sell annually? Here's a clue, GM is constantly doing battle with Toyota for the #1 Automaker and Ford isn't too far behind them. If they all go down. All the current suppliers will have a huge amount of lost contracts, forcing them to either cut production or die off all together. Sure those that are currently supporting Toyota/Honda/etc. will survive with scaled back production, but it's still a huge hit.

I love how EVERYONE that brings this point up forgets that once the #1 automaker goes down, #2-infinity have to pick that slack up! Demand won't change directly as a result of any of the Big 3 going down, it may go down because the economy is in the shitter, but GM, Ford, or Chrysler going bust will simply mean more sales for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, etc. Demand for cars did not change directly due to an automaker failing, meaning the same amount of parts are needed, GM's suppliers now supply Toyota or Honda or whoever takes #1.

Chrysler and Ford Europe buy their transmissions from Jatco. Guess who owns Jatco? Nissan. Chrysler and Ford go away, Nissan sells more cars to pick up the slack from two huge car companies going down, Nissan uses their leftover Jatcos in their own car.

Toyota's Aisin makes transmissions for GM too! "Aisin constructed a factory in the United States of America in 1986, with production beginning in 1989. This factory, in Seymour, Indiana has since been expanded and supplies components for Honda, Geo, General Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, Nissan and Toyota. The company also operates in Marion, Illinois." Same principles apply here. You really think that if GM goes out of business, Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Toyota won't be buying enough Aisin transmissions to pick up the demand left unfulfilled by the #1 automaker in the world?

How many cars sit around on dealer's lots? GM goes out of business, big deal, there are at least 10 other NON BIG 3 dealerships where a GM dealership is here in town.

Pull your heads out of your fucking asses. When the K-Mart down the road from Wal-Mart and Target and Costco goes out of business, the other three retailers don't ramp their prices up by 100%, more people just go to fucking Wal-Mart/Target/Costco! The doomsday scenario everyone is throwing around has a gigantic error in logic in assuming that there are only two car companies in the world, "The Big 3 Inc." and "Everyone Else."
Even if all three of them go out of business (GOOD RIDDANCE, they had 20+ years to get their shit together) then all of these guys will be there to pick up the slack.
It's a BETTER scenario than one department store in a city of 4 stores going out of business, because you have dozens of car manufacturers competing to try and get YOU to be the one that buys THEIR cars as opposed to X Y or Zs cars since you can't get that GM/Ford/Chrysler anymore.

Jesus fucking Christ, I'd expect a 3 year old to have the logical thinking skills to solve THAT doozy of a puzzle. :| </rant>

I'd also like to throw this in, the store analogy made me realize this, I honestly think half of Chrysler, Ford, & GM's problems stem from the fact that they aren't just a "Wal-Mart" or a "Target," all three of them tried to be Costco, Walgreens, Winn-Dixie, Rite-Aid, CVS, Sam's Club, Target, K-Mart, Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart AND fucking McDonald's at the same time, INSIDE the same fucking store (count them, that's how many marquees GM has, thirteen: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GM Daewoo, GMC, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall, and Wuling). Does that look like a successful business model to you?

EDIT2: That's how many marquees they have NOW, Oldsmobile makes it 14.

many of those suppliers would go out of business when billions in account receivables suddenly default, they aren't exactly in the best shape at the moment, what with car sales being down tremendously.

they need to get rid of some marqees though, particularly pontiac, and spin off some of the minor labels like opel, hummer, holden, etc.

ideally, the think the only brands it needs are GMC (industrial oriented) chevy (consumer) and Cadillac (upscale), and perhaps buick since they sell pretty well overseas

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
If the big 3 get saved we'll become a Socialist nation.

we've been a 'socialist' nation for at least 70 years now.

of course you probably don't understand what Socialism is, so you really have no business posting in this thread.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
hahahaha, 35k civ's...hilarous.

pretty stupid, i agree.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

We will be ok eventually, soon we will be able to afford the $8,000 cars coming from China. Wal mart is your new used car salesman.

EDIT: I want to make one thing clear, I hope this is a nominee for the ownage of the year thread with me being the one owned. If that happens, that means things will be ok, but right now, I just don't see it.

I would rather that unions here NOT cease and desist. It's the fact that they turned into pigs and started swimming in their own greed. The Auto unions need to concede some of the wealth, and get with what other companies have had to do to survive. For one, the overly generous retiree benefits have to be axed.

that was done in 2005 iirc.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
OR...

Maybe SOMEBODY will buy up those empty factories at a vastly discounted rate and hire those experienced out-of-work builders and use them to build MORE Civics. You know, maybe one of those companies who is still doing well. One of them who benefits from the yen-to-dollar exchange. One of them who builds cars people want. One of them who is already familiar with economies of scale and efficient part-sharing and can therefore make those Civics even CHEAPER than ever before.

Because let's be honest here. The Big Three haven't been a serious competitor to Honda or the other big Japanese imports in the small car market for decades. If Honda's biggest competitor is Toyota, how much does it really matter if Dodge stops selling their 12 Calibers per month?

Just a thought.

i think the cavalier sold more units than the toyota and honda equivalents combined

 

[Deadtrees]

Yeah, let's make U.S.A to become the Big3 country.
Big3 can make crappy cars driving themselves to go bankcrupt but they won't, thanks for the Big3 support via tax increase.
Americans being partial slaves for Big3 sounds all good!

 

[DomS]

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

We will be ok eventually, soon we will be able to afford the $8,000 cars coming from China. Wal mart is your new used car salesman.

EDIT: I want to make one thing clear, I hope this is a nominee for the ownage of the year thread with me being the one owned. If that happens, that means things will be ok, but right now, I just don't see it.

you realize that most foreign car companies pay their workers better and give them better benefits than the UAW?

 

[miketheidiot]

I also see that noone has mentioned that japanese companies are subsidized to the tune of hundreds of million a year by southern states eager for job's, or the fact that said japanese companies support the bailout of the big 3 and that almost every major global automaker is currently seeking some sort of bailout from its respective government.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

We will be ok eventually, soon we will be able to afford the $8,000 cars coming from China. Wal mart is your new used car salesman.

EDIT: I want to make one thing clear, I hope this is a nominee for the ownage of the year thread with me being the one owned. If that happens, that means things will be ok, but right now, I just don't see it.

you realize that most foreign car companies pay their workers better and give them better benefits than the UAW?

1) wrong

2) if you where right that would take most of the blame off unions right? It can't be the unions fault for paying higher wages when they don't actually receive higher wages.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: venkman

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

Good

Only the rich deserve the priviledge to drive in the U.S. anyway right?

of course, the rest of us should just walk to work. It's better for the environment that way. :roll:

To what job?

They've all been shipped overseas

No they haven't, I'm currently working in the United States. Where are you working?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: venkman
This is the future you all wanted. Without the domestic competition and with suppliers dropping like flies, the foreign car companies will not be able to meet the demand of the new market share meaning prices will skyrocket for cars. Without the UAW around, the foreign car companies will go slash and burn on their own employees salaries and benefits.

Supply Goes Down, Demand Goes Up means car prices sky rocket.


Enjoy

We will be ok eventually, soon we will be able to afford the $8,000 cars coming from China. Wal mart is your new used car salesman.

EDIT: I want to make one thing clear, I hope this is a nominee for the ownage of the year thread with me being the one owned. If that happens, that means things will be ok, but right now, I just don't see it.

I would rather that unions here NOT cease and desist. It's the fact that they turned into pigs and started swimming in their own greed. The Auto unions need to concede some of the wealth, and get with what other companies have had to do to survive. For one, the overly generous retiree benefits have to be axed.

that was done in 2005 iirc.

Taken from an article written 9/2007

The automakers say health-care premiums add $1,200 to $1,500 to the cost of every car, much of that to pay for benefits for retired workers - a cost their competitors don't face because they have few retirees.

" Health care and other benefits for retired workers, not those for current workers, is what makes the U.S. companies noncompetitive, Harbour said.

Toyota, Honda and others offer comparable benefits to their employees" but not to retirees, he said. The American companies say they will need to spend up to $100 billion on future health insurance for retirees.

Another problem is that GM already has about five retired workers for every one worker on the production line, a problem expected to worsen. Nearly two-thirds of GM's current employees will be eligible to retire within five years, and about 30 percent will be eligible at Ford and Chrysler, says the UAW.

This growing legion of retired workers is living far longer than past actuarial studies predicted. And they are spending more on medical procedures

http://www.cleveland.com/onthe...092007_remedy_for.html

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Another problem is that GM already has about five retired workers for every one worker on the production line, a problem expected to worsen. Nearly two-thirds of GM's current employees will be eligible to retire within five years, and about 30 percent will be eligible at Ford and Chrysler, says the UAW.

Wow.

 

[dullard]

Toyota wants them saved because it would LOWER the cost of car manufacturers in the US. Basically, the lucrative union jobs would end, someone will buy the scraps at fire-sale prices, and the SAME cars would be made far cheaper than they are now. Thus, prices would plummet and Toyota wouldn't be able to cut their prices far enough to compete.

I thought this would be a contrast argument to the $35,000 Civic mentioned in the OP.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Quick, everyone go buy a big gas guzzling Stupid Useless Vehicle to help support the big 3.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Quick, everyone go buy a big gas guzzling Stupid Useless Vehicle to help support the big 3.

yes sir!

 

[Noirish]

Taking other taxpayer money to pay for UAW pensions, what a great idea!