9/11 responders bill defeated by GOP filibuster

[Genx87]

The last gasps of a lameduck democrat congress. Nothing is going go get done until a changing of the guard in January.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Why should the 9/11 first responders get anything when Obama can't even take care of our SOLDIERS taking bullets for this country in his continuation of Bush's illegal wars through "Operation kill brown people from 30,000 feet". Besides, shouldn't healthcare reform fixed this issue?

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

I hate both parties and feel that this is a good thing. Why should first responders get special treatment? If this wasn't due to a terrorist attack would they get any money? Why don't first responders to other accidents/tragedies get some sort compensation?

The first responders get paid very well to do their jobs. They get great benefits, awesome pay, retirement... and when they actually have an emergency and do their job you want use to give them extra money?

So, my question is this: what makes the first responders from this tragedy so goddamn special?

 

[fskimospy]

I hate both parties and feel that this is a good thing. Why should first responders get special treatment? If this wasn't due to a terrorist attack would they get any money? Why don't first responders to other accidents/tragedies get some sort compensation?

The first responders get paid very well to do their jobs. They get great benefits, awesome pay, retirement... and when they actually have an emergency and do their job you want use to give them extra money?

So, my question is this: what makes the first responders from this tragedy so goddamn special?

That it was a pretty unique set of circumstances that they were put into that went far beyond the normal duties expected of people in those positions, leading to some medical problems above and beyond what's normal.

It's almost like the normal workman's comp system wasn't set up to deal with exploding 747's and 1.5 million tons of toxic, collapsing, burning debris.

 

[Exterous]

This issue has been before Congress before, and blocked by the Republicans before back in July.

Heh - sorry - so 8.5 years then?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Newly elected Republicans in Indiana also enacted a Death panel and killed a 6 month old baby. They denied a surgery because it would cost $500,000.

I'm sure you have a link, right Dave? Because if it is the story I'm thinking it is, you're lying. I'm sure no one is surprised, though even I never thought you'd stoop so low to use a sick child (not dead by the way, liar) to further your corrupt and twisted agenda.

Put your money where your mouth is and donate to the kid's fund. I did.

 

[Cogman]

So, my question is this: what makes the first responders from this tragedy so goddamn special?

How often do airplanes fly into giant world recognized buildings causing their collapse?

I have no problem giving first responders money for a job well done. I have no problem footing their medical bills that resulted from this tragedy. I would just like to point out that just like everything, there are going to be people trying to game to system and claim non-existent medical problems.

That being said, this isn't a situation where we should be worrying about that. There were few enough first responders that we can both better police and make sure that they aren't gaming the system, and that the corruption for those that successfully do is a drop in the bucket compared to the good that would be received by those with legitimate problems.

In other words, the republicans screwed up on this bill. This is a cause that I think the government should be allowed to use taxpayer money.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

How often do airplanes fly into giant world recognized buildings causing their collapse?

How often do hurricanes flood New Orleans?
How often do oil platforms explode?
How often do tsunamis hit Thailand?
How often do we have devastating earthquakes in Haiti?

Does frequency or probability really matter? Does location of the attack matter? Does the means of a disaster really matter? Would you feel the same way if it wasn't a terrorist attack? First responders get paid to do their fucking job. Their job is to respond to disasters. And $7.4 BILLION for how many people? How many people could possibly have responded? Can we say 5,000? That would be nearly $1.5 MILLION per person.

Here is what I do. I don't want to get sick or hurt. I don't work in certain industries. I don't want to rush into a burning building, because of the inherent risk, so I am not a firefighter. I don't want to get shot at, so I am not a police officer. I don't want to deal with sick people, so I'm not a nurse or EMT. Do you see how this works? Let me spell the logic out for everyone:

Step 1: Make up my mind that I want to avoid certain dangerous situations that could harm me.

Step 2: Decide to choose a career path that doesn't put me in those situations.

See how easy it is?

 

[fskimospy]

How often do hurricanes flood New Orleans?
How often do oil platforms explode?
How often do tsunamis hit Thailand?
How often do we have devastating earthquakes in Haiti?

Does frequency or probability really matter? Does location of the attack matter? Does the means of a disaster really matter? Would you feel the same way if it wasn't a terrorist attack? First responders get paid to do their fucking job. Their job is to respond to disasters. And $7.4 BILLION for how many people? How many people could possibly have responded? Can we say 5,000? That would be nearly $1.5 MILLION per person.

Here is what I do. I don't want to get sick or hurt. I don't work in certain industries. I don't want to rush into a burning building, because of the inherent risk, so I am not a firefighter. I don't want to get shot at, so I am not a police officer. I don't want to deal with sick people, so I'm not a nurse or EMT. Do you see how this works? Let me spell the logic out for everyone:

Step 1: Make up my mind that I want to avoid certain dangerous situations that could harm me.

Step 2: Decide to choose a career path that doesn't put me in those situations.

See how easy it is?

We also have systems of compensation set up for people who are injured on the job.

People enter into these jobs with the knowledge of that system.

That system is (correctly) not set up to function well in extreme circumstances.

So sometimes for uniquely awful situations, we need a unique response.

See how easy that is?

 

[jackstar7]

Everyone takes Apple's view.

Everything that isn't stolen burns.

See how easy that is?

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

That it was a pretty unique set of circumstances that they were put into that went far beyond the normal duties expected of people in those positions, leading to some medical problems above and beyond what's normal.

It's almost like the normal workman's comp system wasn't set up to deal with exploding 747's and 1.5 million tons of toxic, collapsing, burning debris.

People go above and beyond all the time. We have all sorts of unexpected situations constantly. Part of what makes someone a "hero" is the fact that they do these types of things without regard to their own life. Now someone comes crying back because they got injured being a "hero"? They are no longer heroes.

I stand by my original position: they were paid to do a job. You didn't see software engineers, coffee baristas, car mechanics and dentists running into the building? Why not? Oh, because their job doesn't require them to run into disasters. Seems like they chose wisely.

 

[fskimospy]

People go above and beyond all the time. We have all sorts of unexpected situations constantly. Part of what makes someone a "hero" is the fact that they do these types of things without regard to their own life. Now someone comes crying back because they got injured being a "hero"? They are no longer heroes.

I stand by my original position: they were paid to do a job. You didn't see software engineers, coffee baristas, car mechanics and dentists running into the building? Why not? Oh, because their job doesn't require them to run into disasters. Seems like they chose wisely.

I mean this as a serious question, and I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else. Are you autistic or do you have any autism spectrum disorders? It would readily explain the difficulty you are having here.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

We also have systems of compensation set up for people who are injured on the job.

People enter into these jobs with the knowledge of that system.

That system is (correctly) not set up to function well in extreme circumstances.

So sometimes for uniquely awful situations, we need a unique response.

See how easy that is?

Then the first responders should have said "Look, I was trained to give CPR, direct traffic, or pull people from a house fire. A jet flying into a building is above my pay scale and I am not going to risk running in there. It isn't worth it." See how they are responsible?

I'm not saying I'm not grateful or these people weren't brave...but this is the job they signed up for. It is the same reason I don't feel so bad for fisherman who fall overboard, loggers who get smashed, etc. They KNEW the risk before they took the job.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

I mean this as a serious question, and I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else. Are you autistic or do you have any autism spectrum disorders? It would readily explain the difficulty you are having here.

Wow. You just won the argument! Nobody has EVER thought to simply insult someone instead of address their argument! Holy shit! You may be on to something with this... they should really come up with some sort of term for it.

 

[fskimospy]

Then the first responders should have said "Look, I was trained to give CPR, direct traffic, or pull people from a house fire. A jet flying into a building is above my pay scale and I am not going to risk running in there. It isn't worth it." See how they are responsible?

I'm not saying I'm not grateful or these people weren't brave...but this is the job they signed up for. It is the same reason I don't feel so bad for fisherman who fall overboard, loggers who get smashed, etc. They KNEW the risk before they took the job.

So your solution is that we want to create a system in which the rational response for our fire putting out/live saving people is to not attempt to put out fires or save lives.

Clearly this is an excellent idea.

 

[Cogman]

How often do hurricanes flood New Orleans?
How often do oil platforms explode?
How often do tsunamis hit Thailand?
How often do we have devastating earthquakes in Haiti?

Does frequency or probability really matter? Does location of the attack matter? Does the means of a disaster really matter? Would you feel the same way if it wasn't a terrorist attack? First responders get paid to do their fucking job. Their job is to respond to disasters. And $7.4 BILLION for how many people? How many people could possibly have responded? Can we say 5,000? That would be nearly $1.5 MILLION per person.

Absolutely those situations matter. They are rare. A person that becomes a doctor never expects that tomorrow, everyone is going to come down with a horrible illness. A firefighter in new york doesn't expect that tomorrow, two of the largest buildings in the world would collapse. A police officer in a large city does not expect that tomorrow a massive riot will break out. These are extreme situations that happen extremely infrequently. These people where doing more than just their jobs.

Here is what I do. I don't want to get sick or hurt. I don't work in certain industries. I don't want to rush into a burning building, because of the inherent risk, so I am not a firefighter. I don't want to get shot at, so I am not a police officer. I don't want to deal with sick people, so I'm not a nurse or EMT. Do you see how this works? Let me spell the logic out for everyone:

Step 1: Make up my mind that I want to avoid certain dangerous situations that could harm me.

Step 2: Decide to choose a career path that doesn't put me in those situations.

See how easy it is?

Extreme situations are not the norm. I realize this is beyond your comprehension ability, but people that become firemen and police officers don't expect a natural/unnatural disasters to happen in their jurisdiction.

Why shouldn't we treat different situations different from the norm?

 

[fskimospy]

Wow. You just won the argument! Nobody has EVER thought to simply insult someone instead of address their argument! Holy shit! You may be on to something with this... they should really come up with some sort of term for it.

I explicitly stated I wasn't trying to insult you, and I meant it. Your viewpoint here is simply baffling, and I'm trying to understand how you came by it.

 

[PokerGuy]

Seems like the usual emotional response rather than logical. Considering the amounts of money DC wastes on dumb things, I'd rather have it spent on helping people that rushed in to help others... but AoS is right, there's no real reason why this group should get some special differentiation over others. There are equally deserving people all over the place.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

Let me ask this question of everyone who wanted this bill to pass:

How much money have you donated to the medical treatment of first responders?

Let's say half of America wants this bill to pass. Then all half of America needs to do is write a check for $50 (7.4B / 150M = 50) and send it in to them to pay for medical bills. So go ahead... be that change you wish to see. Eskimospy, specifically, how much have YOU donated?

 

[PokerGuy]

Let me ask this question of everyone who wanted this bill to pass:

How much money have you donated to the medical treatment of first responders?

Let's say half of America wants this bill to pass. Then all half of America needs to do is write a check for $50 (7.4B / 150M = 50) and send it in to them to pay for medical bills. So go ahead... be that change you wish to see. Eskimospy, specifically, how much have YOU donated?

No no no, liberals want to spend your money, not give their own, silly.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

So your solution is that we want to create a system in which the rational response for our fire putting out/live saving people is to not attempt to put out fires or save lives.

Clearly this is an excellent idea.

No, you aren't comprehending. You stated that these people weren't expecting such a disaster. This argument can take two paths:

1) They weren't expecting such a terrible disaster and were not properly equipped for it. That is why there were so many injuries. In that situation I think it would be reasonable for someone to say "Fuck that!" And I'm sure many did.

2) They receive training and respond to all emergencies. Then 9/11 (awww my heartstrings) was just another emergency and they were doing what we pay them to do.

 

[fskimospy]

Let me ask this question of everyone who wanted this bill to pass:

How much money have you donated to the medical treatment of first responders?

Let's say half of America wants this bill to pass. Then all half of America needs to do is write a check for $50 (7.4B / 150M = 50) and send it in to them to pay for medical bills. So go ahead... be that change you wish to see. Eskimospy, specifically, how much have YOU donated?

Now I'm going to insult you: if you honestly believe that argument you are retarded.

Apply your logic to all legislation our government passes. Anyone who supports it should send in a check, now watch American society collapse due to collective action problems. It should take you approximately 3 seconds to see why your idea is dumb. We have a legislature with taxation authority for a reason.

Please do try and explain to us why you want a situation where rational firefighters and life saving personnel should make the rational decision not to fight fires or save lives. How is that in anyone's best interest?

 

[fskimospy]

No, you aren't comprehending. You stated that these people weren't expecting such a disaster. This argument can take two paths:

1) They weren't expecting such a terrible disaster and were not properly equipped for it. That is why there were so many injuries. In that situation I think it would be reasonable for someone to say "Fuck that!" And I'm sure many did.

2) They receive training and respond to all emergencies. Then 9/11 (awww my heartstrings) was just another emergency and they were doing what we pay them to do.

Or you can step into reality.

We don't train and equip our emergency personnel to respond to any and all possible emergencies, because it's too expensive to do that everywhere and at all times, therefore we keep emergency personnel that are trained and equipped to handle ALMOST all emergencies, and then enact special programs/legislation for those that go above and beyond.

The cost to keep all fire departments/EMTs/etc equipped to handle such a thing would cost FAR more than 7 billion or so over time, and would be a foolish waste of money.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

Absolutely those situations matter. They are rare. A person that becomes a doctor never expects that tomorrow, everyone is going to come down with a horrible illness. A firefighter in new york doesn't expect that tomorrow, two of the largest buildings in the world would collapse. A police officer in a large city does not expect that tomorrow a massive riot will break out. These are extreme situations that happen extremely infrequently. These people where doing more than just their jobs.


Extreme situations are not the norm. I realize this is beyond your comprehension ability, but people that become firemen and police officers don't expect a natural/unnatural disasters to happen in their jurisdiction.

Why shouldn't we treat different situations different from the norm?

And I'm sure soldiers who enlist during peace time don't expect a war. And those who do go to war probably don't expect to be blown up with IEDs. Should we give them compensation for going to war? For facing circumstances that are out of the norm?

My brother enlisted right before 9/11 and didn't expect to ever have to leave for war...boy was he mistaken. He didn't bitch about how it was unfair though. He realized he took a gamble and was now going to the desert. Such is life.

I recognize this is an extreme situation. But then again, isn't that relative? This type of shit happens daily in Israel. Do you think every time there is a rocket attack they levy taxes to pay first responders? So maybe what we need, according to your logic, is more plane attacks on buildings to make this the status quo.

Anyone who becomes a first responder should be prepared for the worst. Or we could do this...we only pay those people based on disasters. You go your entire career washing the fire engine and not putting out fires then you get paid nothing.

What is so hard to understand about this? YOU WORK IN A DANGEROUS INDUSTRY! ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!

 

[fskimospy]

And I'm sure soldiers who enlist during peace time don't expect a war. And those who do go to war probably don't expect to be blown up with IEDs. Should we give them compensation for going to war? For facing circumstances that are out of the norm?

My brother enlisted right before 9/11 and didn't expect to ever have to leave for war...boy was he mistaken. He didn't bitch about how it was unfair though. He realized he took a gamble and was now going to the desert. Such is life.

I recognize this is an extreme situation. But then again, isn't that relative? This type of shit happens daily in Israel. Do you think every time there is a rocket attack they levy taxes to pay first responders? So maybe what we need, according to your logic, is more plane attacks on buildings to make this the status quo.

Anyone who becomes a first responder should be prepared for the worst. Or we could do this...we only pay those people based on disasters. You go your entire career washing the fire engine and not putting out fires then you get paid nothing.

What is so hard to understand about this? YOU WORK IN A DANGEROUS INDUSTRY! ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!

How is an IED (which is basically a land mine) a situation out of the norm for a soldier? Oh, and we probably would give them compensation out of the norm if their service connected disabilities weren't already covered for life... which is in effect already maxed out benefits.

The idea that rocket attacks into Israel are the equivalent of September 11th is laughable. Go look up the total number if Israelis killed by rocket attacks in the entire history of rocket attacks.