Which basically goes to prove you have no concept of phyics and of the forces involved. Go try getting an education, THEN try posting. Stop doing it the other way around.
Which basically goes to prove you have no concept of phyics and of the forces involved. Go try getting an education, THEN try posting. Stop doing it the other way around.
That's true... no one at all wanted to be a hero. Come on, there's at least one drunk person on every flight.
Ok, the collapse was not caused by structural damage that occured when the planes hit the towers, it was caused by the basic construction of the building itself. The floors were supported by I-Beams bolted to the central shaft, when you've got a plane full of jet fuel burning like that things tend to get a bit hot, as in hot enough to weaken and melt the support beams, and the towers pancaked down. Why is that difficult to believe? Show me a law of physics that says that it is impossible that the towers would never have fallen straight down without outside influence. As for the accusations of demolitions being involved, if you actually take a glance at a video of the towers going down it's pretty obvious that the fall starts from, oh, somewhere in the area of the floor where the planes hit. Now if there were demolitions involved that would mean 1 of 2 things, either they somehow got to those floors after the impact and placed demolition charges designed to bring the structure down in a specific manner, or they were pre-positioned. If they were pre positioned, that raises the question of how they managed to survive the impact, and how they detonated on that specific floor. Did the people who placed demo charges wire it up with individual controlls for each floor?
The high adrenaline rush is exactly what took place on the fourth plane, the one that crashed in Pennsylvania. It was the last one and the passengers were beginning to get word of the other planes via their cell phones.
Before 9/11 everyone was under the impression you followed the instructions of the hijackers in order to survive. That day was total surprise to all the passengers and crews. The fourth plane was far enough behind the first three for the surprise to diminish and alternatives to be taken by the passengers on that plane.
If I had been on one of the first three planes, I would have been just as compliant as the rest of the passengers because, I didn't know the intent of the hijackers was to crash the plane. Had I been on the last plane, I would have joined in the attempt to regain control of the aircraft as futile as that was.
Honestly, what would you have done?
- Aug 30, 2004
- 2,519
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Your kind of missing the point here, ,what is amazing about and unbelieveable is not that they succeeded but that they would have ever even planned it this way in the first place. That is what is mindboggling to me. Would you try to commandeer a plane with nothing more thean a utility knife?
What would I have done? I don't know, since I wasn't there I don't know if it was even possible for the victims to do anything.
Beers,
1) You only have to do it to ONE to show that you are serious...but I am beginning to think they DID NOT -because they didn't do it on the 4th plane that crashed in Pennsylvania - those people had cell phone contact with loved ones, and would have mentioned it. Of course, they could have kept that a secret too, to avoid disturbing the families, so we probably will never know.
2) Utility knives have been written about in terrorism training manuals for at least a DECADE before 9/11. Someone once provided some online links. They were always allowed on board, they look innocuous as they are "trade" materiels not weapons, and they cut very very deep - and they are very, very sharp. Spent a summer in college working in a warehouse, I STILL have a deep scar on my leg from my utility knife cutting through my jeans and hitting me. And that was just incidental contact...
FS
Well, no. I'd try and commandeer a plan with an assault rifle, but I'd have a hard time trying to explain that one to the airport screeners.
As an alternative, I'd try and follow the teachings of MacGuyver and fashion a flame thrower out of a bicycle, but then i'd quickly realize that nobody would take me seriously if I'm standing there shooting flames out of a bike frame.
So I guess the box cutter is my only option.
No, not a SINGLE man - but determined, tough-acting teams of 4-6 men per plane not only tried, but they DID.
And add to that a few years of martial arts training for some of the highjackers.
On plane #4 was a PASSENGER who was a highly expert black-belt, he is one of the men who lead the charge to take back the plane. Even with his formidable skills in hand to hand combat, and a good sized posse, the terrorists were STILL able to crash it before they could re-take it...
Future Shock
PS - the answer to your question is a single man with a large physical presense might be able to pull it off, especially if he just wanted to highjack it, and not control the cockpit. Kill one stewardess by graphically slitting her throat, put the knife at the throat of a second while you bind her hands with duct tape...and tell them to land where you want...I would bet it works well enough.
So now you are saying the victims couldn't have changed the course of events. Hmm! When the socalled reasonable man is informed of his situation, he reacts and you are arguing that nothing could be done. You also are somewhat dismissive of the organized hijacking by a well trained group of terrorists.
It sounds to me that you are suffering from survivor's guilt by proxy.
This way of taking control of a plane was invented by...US militaries on a base in Germany, in the '70s. The Pentagon had asked them to find the best way to hijack an airliner. Some of them have started to talk after 9/11. I heard one interviewed by Alex Jones; he said they found this demand by the Pentagon very very very strange. They were all very disturbed by this. He also thinks the 9/11 hijackers were hired by the Pentagon ("U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in the 9/11 terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s." -- Newsweek, 9/15/01) and thought it was an exercise, and that the planes were remote-controlled.
By the way, flight 93 might have been shot down. Ernie Stuhl, the mayor of Shanksville: ?I know of two people?I will not mention names? that heard a missile. They both live very close, within a couple of hundred yards ... This one fellow's served in Vietnam and he says he's heard them, and he heard one that day.? He adds that based on what he has learned, F-16s were ?very, very close.?
Though what happened to that flight might be more complex, if we take into account all the testimonies: http://www.democraticunderground.com/di...oard.php?az=view_all&address=125x28985
And what about the black boxes?
<< Contents of Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders Are Missing
All jetliners are equipped with flight data recorders (FDRs) and cockpit voice recorders (CVRs) contained in "black boxes" designed to survive the most severe crashes. To date, none of the contents of any of the black boxes have been released to the public. Authorities have claimed that all but the recorders on Flight 93 were either not recovered or too damaged to yield data. The black boxes of Flight 77 were allegedly found on September 14th, but yielded "nothing useful" according to FBI director Robert Mueller.
According to the federal authorities controlling Ground Zero, the black boxes from the two crashed 767s, Flight 11 and Flight 175, failed to turn up in the rubble taken from the site. However, two men who worked in the cleanup operation at Ground Zero claim that they helped authorities find three of the four black boxes in October of 2001. One of the workers, New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi, has self-published a book with other Ground Zero workers in which he describes the recovery of the devices. The book, Behind the Scenes: GROUND ZERO, A Collection of Personal Accounts, can be ordered through SummerOfTruth.org.
The account of the Ground Zero workers contradicts the 9/11 Commission Report which states: "The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found."
Survivability Requirements
Events that would damage the recorders sufficiently to make them unreadable are extremely rare. NTSB spokesperson Ted Lopatkiewicz said that he couldn't recall a domestic case before 9/11/01 in which the recorders were not recovered. The recorders are designed to survive the kinds of impacts that happened at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The FAA has placed durability requirements on the recorders and their casings to survive severe impact and fire.
The storage medium of each recorder is located in a protective capsule, which must be able to withstand an impact of 3,400 Gs (3,400 times the force of gravity). Additionally, each must also survive flames at 2,000 F for up to 30 minutes, and submersion in 20,000 feet of saltwater for 30 days. Typically, to increase their chances of survival, the recorders are located in the tail section of the aircraft, which usually sustains the least impact in a crash. >>
A lot of evidence has been destroyed or has disappeared.
<< WTC Steel Removal
The Expeditious Destruction of the Evidence at Ground Zero
Steel was the structural material of the buildings. As such it was the most important evidence to preserve in order to puzzle out how the structures held up to the impacts and fires, but then disintegrated into rubble. Since no steel frame buildings had ever collapsed due to fires, the steel should have been subjected to detailed analysis. So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!
Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage. 1
Mayor Bloomberg, a former engineering major, was not concerned about the destruction of the evidence:
If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that's in this day and age what computers do. Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn't tell you anything. 2
During the official investigation controlled by FEMA, One hundred fifty pieces of steel were saved for future study. One hundred fifty pieces out of hundreds of thousands of pieces! Moreover it is not clear who made the decision to save these particular pieces. It is clear that the volunteer investigators were doing their work at the Fishkills dump, not at Ground Zero, so whatever steel they had access to was first picked over by the people running the cleanup operation.
Highly Sensitive Garbage
Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.
Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. 3
Shielding Investigators From the Evidence
According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it was cut up for recycling. Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.
* Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
* Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
* Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
* Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ
FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study, "Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE)." >>
<< F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers' Statements
NY Times May 6 (excerpt)
WASHINGTON, May 6 ? At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said today...
The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, but it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. quality-assurance manager, who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.
The inspector general had been asked by Senator John McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, to look into how well the Federal Aviation Administration had cooperated with the 9/11 Commission.
The quality-assurance manager told investigators that he had destroyed the tape because he thought making it was contrary to F.A.A. policy, which calls for written statements, and because he felt that the controllers "were not in the correct frame of mind to have properly consented to the taping" because of the stress of the day.
End of excerpt.
Okay. We are talking about ?at least six? air traffic controllers and two of the hijacked airliners. Presumably, all the taping activity occurred in one location on Long Island.
Did all six controllers make one continuous tape?
Doubtful.
In which case, a number of tapes were destroyed.
And their remains were scattered in different trash cans.
The above story does not mention tapes that may have been made, in real time, as the hijackings of the two planes proceeded. I don?t know standard procedure in these situations, but it seems to me that air-controller headquarters do, in fact, record their conversations with pilots in the air---especially when those pilots are aboard hijacked planes.
Did the controllers actually talk to the pilots?
Or to hijackers?
It appears there may be two completely different sets of tapes: those made during the hijackings and those made afterwards by the controllers.
We are led to believe these controllers did not make written reports. I find that amazing.
This has all the earmarks of an extensive cover-up.
And the FAA manager says he destroyed the tape(s) because he felt the controllers were under too much stress to give informed consent to the after-taping. Gee, that sounds like something a lawyer would claim for his client, in a situation where the client has been charged with a crime.
And it is claimed that no one ever listened to these tapes. I guess the manager destroyed them as quickly as possible.
What about the people who assisted in the making of these tapes? Or did the controllers, all of them, simply set up a tape machine on their own in a room and start talking? If so, that sounds like they had something very important to say and wanted to get it on the record.
Who, in law enforcement, is talking to those controllers now? Why are we not hearing from the controllers? I guess they have gag orders.
One would have to be a complete idiot not to suspect a grand cover-up.
And yet?no major media outlet is yet screaming bloody murder.
Is it possible that the taping was supervised by someone from law enforcement? If so, the manager who destroyed the tapes should be in very hot water now. So far, it appears he is not. Maybe he received ?higher orders? to get rid of the tapes, because they contained info that could blow the roof off 9/11.
The most stunning event since Pearl Harbor, and the manager shreds crucial evidence. An FAA quality-control manager. Quality-control. Under what standard chain of command was this guy operating? I thought quality control was merely about inspecting the competence of others.
Apparently, since 9/11, these controllers have been interviewed by law enforcement, and they have given official statements. What are the odds that these statements do NOT contain all the info laid down on those tapes?
There is no word that the manager has been charged with a crime. >>
One of the most disturbing questions of Sep11th is about the "stand down".
Was there some possible evidence on the tape?
By the way, flight 93 might have been shot down. Ernie Stuhl, the mayor of Shanksville: ?I know of two people?I will not mention names? that heard a missile. They both live very close, within a couple of hundred yards ... This one fellow's served in Vietnam and he says he's heard them, and he heard one that day.? He adds that based on what he has learned, F-16s were ?very, very close.?
Though what happened to that flight might be more complex, if we take into account all the testimonies: http://www.democraticunderground.com/di...oard.php?az=view_all&address=125x28985
And what about the black boxes?
<< Contents of Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders Are Missing
All jetliners are equipped with flight data recorders (FDRs) and cockpit voice recorders (CVRs) contained in "black boxes" designed to survive the most severe crashes. To date, none of the contents of any of the black boxes have been released to the public. Authorities have claimed that all but the recorders on Flight 93 were either not recovered or too damaged to yield data. The black boxes of Flight 77 were allegedly found on September 14th, but yielded "nothing useful" according to FBI director Robert Mueller.
According to the federal authorities controlling Ground Zero, the black boxes from the two crashed 767s, Flight 11 and Flight 175, failed to turn up in the rubble taken from the site. However, two men who worked in the cleanup operation at Ground Zero claim that they helped authorities find three of the four black boxes in October of 2001. One of the workers, New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi, has self-published a book with other Ground Zero workers in which he describes the recovery of the devices. The book, Behind the Scenes: GROUND ZERO, A Collection of Personal Accounts, can be ordered through SummerOfTruth.org.
The account of the Ground Zero workers contradicts the 9/11 Commission Report which states: "The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found."
Survivability Requirements
Events that would damage the recorders sufficiently to make them unreadable are extremely rare. NTSB spokesperson Ted Lopatkiewicz said that he couldn't recall a domestic case before 9/11/01 in which the recorders were not recovered. The recorders are designed to survive the kinds of impacts that happened at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The FAA has placed durability requirements on the recorders and their casings to survive severe impact and fire.
The storage medium of each recorder is located in a protective capsule, which must be able to withstand an impact of 3,400 Gs (3,400 times the force of gravity). Additionally, each must also survive flames at 2,000 F for up to 30 minutes, and submersion in 20,000 feet of saltwater for 30 days. Typically, to increase their chances of survival, the recorders are located in the tail section of the aircraft, which usually sustains the least impact in a crash. >>
A lot of evidence has been destroyed or has disappeared.
<< WTC Steel Removal
The Expeditious Destruction of the Evidence at Ground Zero
Steel was the structural material of the buildings. As such it was the most important evidence to preserve in order to puzzle out how the structures held up to the impacts and fires, but then disintegrated into rubble. Since no steel frame buildings had ever collapsed due to fires, the steel should have been subjected to detailed analysis. So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!
Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage. 1
Mayor Bloomberg, a former engineering major, was not concerned about the destruction of the evidence:
If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that's in this day and age what computers do. Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn't tell you anything. 2
During the official investigation controlled by FEMA, One hundred fifty pieces of steel were saved for future study. One hundred fifty pieces out of hundreds of thousands of pieces! Moreover it is not clear who made the decision to save these particular pieces. It is clear that the volunteer investigators were doing their work at the Fishkills dump, not at Ground Zero, so whatever steel they had access to was first picked over by the people running the cleanup operation.
Highly Sensitive Garbage
Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.
Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. 3
Shielding Investigators From the Evidence
According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it was cut up for recycling. Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.
* Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
* Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
* Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
* Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ
FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study, "Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE)." >>
<< F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers' Statements
NY Times May 6 (excerpt)
WASHINGTON, May 6 ? At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said today...
The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, but it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. quality-assurance manager, who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.
The inspector general had been asked by Senator John McCain, chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, to look into how well the Federal Aviation Administration had cooperated with the 9/11 Commission.
The quality-assurance manager told investigators that he had destroyed the tape because he thought making it was contrary to F.A.A. policy, which calls for written statements, and because he felt that the controllers "were not in the correct frame of mind to have properly consented to the taping" because of the stress of the day.
End of excerpt.
Okay. We are talking about ?at least six? air traffic controllers and two of the hijacked airliners. Presumably, all the taping activity occurred in one location on Long Island.
Did all six controllers make one continuous tape?
Doubtful.
In which case, a number of tapes were destroyed.
And their remains were scattered in different trash cans.
The above story does not mention tapes that may have been made, in real time, as the hijackings of the two planes proceeded. I don?t know standard procedure in these situations, but it seems to me that air-controller headquarters do, in fact, record their conversations with pilots in the air---especially when those pilots are aboard hijacked planes.
Did the controllers actually talk to the pilots?
Or to hijackers?
It appears there may be two completely different sets of tapes: those made during the hijackings and those made afterwards by the controllers.
We are led to believe these controllers did not make written reports. I find that amazing.
This has all the earmarks of an extensive cover-up.
And the FAA manager says he destroyed the tape(s) because he felt the controllers were under too much stress to give informed consent to the after-taping. Gee, that sounds like something a lawyer would claim for his client, in a situation where the client has been charged with a crime.
And it is claimed that no one ever listened to these tapes. I guess the manager destroyed them as quickly as possible.
What about the people who assisted in the making of these tapes? Or did the controllers, all of them, simply set up a tape machine on their own in a room and start talking? If so, that sounds like they had something very important to say and wanted to get it on the record.
Who, in law enforcement, is talking to those controllers now? Why are we not hearing from the controllers? I guess they have gag orders.
One would have to be a complete idiot not to suspect a grand cover-up.
And yet?no major media outlet is yet screaming bloody murder.
Is it possible that the taping was supervised by someone from law enforcement? If so, the manager who destroyed the tapes should be in very hot water now. So far, it appears he is not. Maybe he received ?higher orders? to get rid of the tapes, because they contained info that could blow the roof off 9/11.
The most stunning event since Pearl Harbor, and the manager shreds crucial evidence. An FAA quality-control manager. Quality-control. Under what standard chain of command was this guy operating? I thought quality control was merely about inspecting the competence of others.
Apparently, since 9/11, these controllers have been interviewed by law enforcement, and they have given official statements. What are the odds that these statements do NOT contain all the info laid down on those tapes?
There is no word that the manager has been charged with a crime. >>
One of the most disturbing questions of Sep11th is about the "stand down".
Was there some possible evidence on the tape?
Yep. I work the grave shift and get off at 630 and know plenty of guys and gals I work with that are usually trashed by about 8 or 9 am. Dont think it wouldve helped in this situation though.
Like someone else said, even if the passangers on all the planes would have resisted once the hijackers were in the cockpit it would have been easy for someone trained in the martial arts with a box cutter/utility knife to hold a 3 ft wide door against all comers. Hell I have a few friends who aren't trained in any martial arts who can hold a door that wide against at least 35 people for a fact. Saw it last summer at a frat party that got outta control.
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