$8 hr new Breadwinner Benchmark for U.S. & No Insurance

[Lucky]

That is not an accurate statement. This is from the Providence Journal. WalMart pays poverty wages and only 38% of its employees have health care coverage.

that statement proves you dont know what you are talking about.

first off, 90% of their workers have health insurance. 40% through walmart, 50% elsewhere, and 10% choose not be have it or are not yet eligible. However, once each employee works past the initial waiting period they are ALL eligible for coverage. no, it's not innacurate.

 

[rjain]

djNickb: Then your point has no relevance to what I was discussing.

 

[Ferocious]

As unions (and therefore the people) weaken.......so does the middle class.

There can be no strong middle class without courageous people willing to unite.

Without a united people......the quest for a fair days pay for a fair days work.....becomes instead the necessity to accept the least possible days pay for a fair days work.

 

[rjain]

Yeah, collusion and trusts are the way to encourage economic development.

Ferocious: is your last name Rockefeller?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain
Yeah, collusion and trusts are the way to encourage economic development.

Ferocious: is your last name Rockefeller?

The Corporations do it, why shouldn't their employees?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
As unions (and therefore the people) weaken.......so does the middle class.

There can be no strong middle class without courageous people willing to unite.

Without a united people......the quest for a fair days pay for a fair days work.....becomes instead the necessity to accept the least possible days pay for a fair days work.

Wow - I didn't know individual people were such wimps. If you don't like your job, pay, or benefits - either leave or ask for more. If management shoots you down - then leave - obviously you think that you are worth more to an employer...go prove it then. When was the last time a Union created a job?(besides their own beuracracy positions) When was the last time you looked at how much the union takes out of your salary every year? Is that amount "worth" the supposed "security" the union is supposed to be providing? Yeah - whoo hoo for the unions

CkG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
As unions (and therefore the people) weaken.......so does the middle class.

There can be no strong middle class without courageous people willing to unite.

Without a united people......the quest for a fair days pay for a fair days work.....becomes instead the necessity to accept the least possible days pay for a fair days work.

Wow - I didn't know individual people were such wimps. If you don't like your job, pay, or benefits - either leave or ask for more. If management shoots you down - then leave - obviously you think that you are worth more to an employer...go prove it then. When was the last time a Union created a job?(besides their own beuracracy positions) When was the last time you looked at how much the union takes out of your salary every year? Is that amount "worth" the supposed "security" the union is supposed to be providing? Yeah - whoo hoo for the unions

CkG

If you were in the building trades you'd be a fool not to belong to a Union.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Yeah, collusion and trusts are the way to encourage economic development.

Ferocious: is your last name Rockefeller?

The Corporations do it, why shouldn't their employees?

Standard Oil was never broken up? Are you supporting exploitative monopolies? What was the point of your post?

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If you were in the building trades you'd be a fool not to belong to a Union.

That's because they have a monopoly and will exploit it in order to make sure you can't work without paying your tithes. Just like if you wanted to buy gas, you'd be a fool not to buy it from Standard Oil, back then.

 

[ReiAyanami]

when democracy was being founded in greece, they had unions back then too. they were called guilds

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
As unions (and therefore the people) weaken.......so does the middle class.

There can be no strong middle class without courageous people willing to unite.

Without a united people......the quest for a fair days pay for a fair days work.....becomes instead the necessity to accept the least possible days pay for a fair days work.

Wow - I didn't know individual people were such wimps. If you don't like your job, pay, or benefits - either leave or ask for more. If management shoots you down - then leave - obviously you think that you are worth more to an employer...go prove it then. When was the last time a Union created a job?(besides their own beuracracy positions) When was the last time you looked at how much the union takes out of your salary every year? Is that amount "worth" the supposed "security" the union is supposed to be providing? Yeah - whoo hoo for the unions

CkG

If you were in the building trades you'd be a fool not to belong to a Union.

No - I expect MY job performance to drive my wages and raises - not some union that doesn't give a flying rats ass about actual performance. Sorry, I'll leave that up to the company - not a union. I will choose to not work union everytime

CkG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Yeah, collusion and trusts are the way to encourage economic development.

Ferocious: is your last name Rockefeller?

The Corporations do it, why shouldn't their employees?

Standard Oil was never broken up? Are you supporting exploitative monopolies? What was the point of your post?

No I am in support of Unions as they empower the employees. Now that doesn't mean that I support Union corruption just like I don't support Governmental or Corporate corruption .

 

[rjain]

Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain
Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

How so?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
As unions (and therefore the people) weaken.......so does the middle class.

There can be no strong middle class without courageous people willing to unite.

Without a united people......the quest for a fair days pay for a fair days work.....becomes instead the necessity to accept the least possible days pay for a fair days work.

Wow - I didn't know individual people were such wimps. If you don't like your job, pay, or benefits - either leave or ask for more. If management shoots you down - then leave - obviously you think that you are worth more to an employer...go prove it then. When was the last time a Union created a job?(besides their own beuracracy positions) When was the last time you looked at how much the union takes out of your salary every year? Is that amount "worth" the supposed "security" the union is supposed to be providing? Yeah - whoo hoo for the unions

CkG

Cad, I know that's your standard answer/response for any union topic presented, however let me give you a pertinent example:

Let's say for a moment, that you're a supermarket check-out clerk. You've worked the registers for years and that's all you're good at, vocationally speaking. With unions in place, you've got a shot at making $15-17/hr at most of the major unionized supermarkets along with reasonable health insurance, a pension - overall a reasonable benefits package.

But what if the major markets locked out the unions and decided they (as a group) were only going to pay $7-8/hr for the same positions. So you quit your job at Supermarket A to look for positions at Supermarket B, C, and D. But they're only paying $7-8/hr too. Everywhere you turn, each of the supermarkets are offering less than 1/2 of what you were making.

What do you do then, Cad?

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

How so?

Ah. Your typical childish strategy.
You explain how they are different from Standard Oil. If you can't defend your beloved Monopolizers and Exploiters, I'll have to assume that you believe in their Greatness as a religion.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

How so?

Ah. Your typical childish strategy.
You explain how they are different from Standard Oil. If you can't defend your beloved Monopolizers and Exploiters, I'll have to assume that you believe in their Greatness as a religion.

Huh? Obviously you have so many bugs up your arse that you need to see an exterminator, not a Proctologist. You are the one that said by definition that Unions are Corrupt, I just asked you how so. Now if that's childish then so be it, all I was doing was asking you to expand on your proclaimation. I get the feeling that with you I am dealing with someone who thinks of himself as better than the commom working man which you definately aren't.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

But what if the major markets locked out the unions and decided they (as a group) were only going to pay $7-8/hr for the same positions. So you quit your job at Supermarket A to look for positions at Supermarket B, C, and D. But they're only paying $7-8/hr too. Everywhere you turn, each of the supermarkets are offering less than 1/2 of what you were making.

You get an occupation that actually is worth the amount of money you want to get from it. All the unions do is eliminate free market pricing of labor. I'm sure you're one of those who would cry a river if some manufacturer eliminated free market pricing. The fact is that they both work the same way. If the labor costs are fixed at an exorbitant rate, you get inflated pricing of the product they make, in order to cover the excessive expenses. You also drive out poor people from jobs because they can't afford to join the union and may not have the connections necessary. The same way that Standard Oil monopolized crude oil in the US.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

How so?

Ah. Your typical childish strategy.
You explain how they are different from Standard Oil. If you can't defend your beloved Monopolizers and Exploiters, I'll have to assume that you believe in their Greatness as a religion.

Huh? Obviously you have so many bugs up your arse that you need to see an exterminator, not a Proctologist. You are the one that said by definition that Unions are Corrupt, I just asked you how so. Now if that's childish then so be it, all I was doing was asking you to expand on your proclaimation. I get the feeling that with you I am dealing with someone who thinks of himself as better than the commom working man which you definately aren't.

Erm, I said they are just as corrupt as corporate collusions. Yes, that means they are corrupt, but don't you know what the results of monopolization are?

Edit: It's the unions who think they are better than the common working man because they believe that the common working man must pay them in order to be given the privilidge of working along side their current members. I'd really love to see how unions are any different from any other monopoly.

 

[ZaneNBK]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Cad, I know that's your standard answer/response for any union topic presented, however let me give you a pertinent example:

Let's say for a moment, that you're a supermarket check-out clerk. You've worked the registers for years and that's all you're good at, vocationally speaking. With unions in place, you've got a shot at making $15-17/hr at most of the major unionized supermarkets along with reasonable health insurance, a pension - overall a reasonable benefits package.

But what if the major markets locked out the unions and decided they (as a group) were only going to pay $7-8/hr for the same positions. So you quit your job at Supermarket A to look for positions at Supermarket B, C, and D. But they're only paying $7-8/hr too. Everywhere you turn, each of the supermarkets are offering less than 1/2 of what you were making.

What do you do then, Cad?

Probably realize that you've been overpaid for a job that anyone with a 6th grade education and a minimal understanding of the English language can handle and start looking for something else.

BTW, nice twisting of the facts of the current union situation in CA. No, you didn't state it outright but you implied it. They're not lowering current worker pay, they're lowering starting pay somewhat and making the employees pay $5-15/week for healthcare. Whoopity doo.

Working at Wal-mart or a grocery store (in most positions) is NOT a career.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ZaneNBK

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Cad, I know that's your standard answer/response for any union topic presented, however let me give you a pertinent example:

Let's say for a moment, that you're a supermarket check-out clerk. You've worked the registers for years and that's all you're good at, vocationally speaking. With unions in place, you've got a shot at making $15-17/hr at most of the major unionized supermarkets along with reasonable health insurance, a pension - overall a reasonable benefits package.

But what if the major markets locked out the unions and decided they (as a group) were only going to pay $7-8/hr for the same positions. So you quit your job at Supermarket A to look for positions at Supermarket B, C, and D. But they're only paying $7-8/hr too. Everywhere you turn, each of the supermarkets are offering less than 1/2 of what you were making.

What do you do then, Cad?

Probably realize that you've been overpaid for a job that anyone with a 6th grade education and a minimal understanding of the English language can handle and start looking for something else.

BTW, nice twisting of the facts of the current union situation in CA. No, you didn't state it outright but you implied it. They're not lowering current worker pay, they're lowering starting pay somewhat and making the employees pay $5-15/week for healthcare. Whoopity doo.

Working at Wal-mart or a grocery store (in most positions) is NOT a career.

I guess I should have put "hypothetical example" instead. In any event, you don't explain what this person is supposed to do besides being sh!t outta luck. Not everyone in this country has the brains to go work a real job - I mean, that should be abundantly evident. What used to be valid careers for America's under-educated are turning into McJobs at minimum wage, or just vanishing all together - exported to China or some 3rd world country.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
Unions are, by definition, exploitative collusiuons and trusts. They are by definition as corrupt as your "corporate corruption", as they are the same thing.

How so?

Ah. Your typical childish strategy.
You explain how they are different from Standard Oil. If you can't defend your beloved Monopolizers and Exploiters, I'll have to assume that you believe in their Greatness as a religion.

Huh? Obviously you have so many bugs up your arse that you need to see an exterminator, not a Proctologist. You are the one that said by definition that Unions are Corrupt, I just asked you how so. Now if that's childish then so be it, all I was doing was asking you to expand on your proclaimation. I get the feeling that with you I am dealing with someone who thinks of himself as better than the commom working man which you definately aren't.

Erm, I said they are just as corrupt as corporate collusions. Yes, that means they are corrupt, but don't you know what the results of monopolization are?

Edit: It's the unions who think they are better than the common working man because they believe that the common working man must pay them in order to be given the privilidge of working along side their current members. I'd really love to see how unions are any different from any other monopoly.

The dues paid are to fund the Union my friend. When I was in the Carpenters Union I think my dues were $20.00 a month. Those funds didn't go into someones pocket, they were used for News Letters, Union Elections, Lobbying, Staff Salaries, Meeting Halls and Union Events.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

I guess I should have put "hypothetical example" instead. In any event, you don't explain what this person is supposed to do besides being sh!t outta luck. Not everyone in this country has the brains to go work a real job - I mean, that should be abundantly evident. What used to be valid careers for America's under-educated are turning into McJobs at minimum wage, or just vanishing all together - exported to China or some 3rd world country.

They're losing the jobs because of either the greed of the worker, who won't work for less than some amount because he thinks he is entitled to that amount of money even though his skills are worth far less in the free market, or because of minimum wage restrictions who won't allow the worker to work at a salary competitive with the free market, and the job goes overseas. There are lots of stupid people in the world. Why should we care that one set of them is losing money and the other is gaining?

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The dues paid are to fund the Union my friend. When I was in the Carpenters Union I think my dues were $20.00 a month. Those funds didn't go into someones pocket, they were used for News Letters, Union Elections, Lobbying, Staff Salaries, Meeting Halls and Union Events.

And if I don't want to pay those fees and don't care for those "benefits"? If the $20 is what I need to put food on the table so I can raise a family, should I be denied that right? Will I be able to work in a company for whatever I am willing to bear because I am so destitute? No, because the union won't allow me to. If such a "scab" is willing to work for less than the union's requirements, that doesn't help him get a job because the rest of the union will exploit their collusion and force you out of the market or into the union. How is that different from the way Standard Oil drove small oil companies out of the market or forced them into a takeover?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The dues paid are to fund the Union my friend. When I was in the Carpenters Union I think my dues were $20.00 a month. Those funds didn't go into someones pocket, they were used for News Letters, Union Elections, Lobbying, Staff Salaries, Meeting Halls and Union Events.

And if I don't want to pay those fees and don't care for those "benefits"? If the $20 is what I need to put food on the table so I can raise a family, should I be denied that right?

No

Will I be able to work in a company for whatever I am willing to bear because I am so destitute?

If you are capable of doing the job as well as a Union Worker would why would you want to make less money? If someone was destitue it would seem to me that a Union Membership would be a godsend for him

No, because the union won't allow me to.

No the Union won't allow their workers to work alongside you. It's up to the Contractor whether he wants to hire you or not. Granted he would have to get Scabs to do all his work but that is his right as a Independant Contractor

If such a "scab" is willing to work for less than the union's requirements, that doesn't help him get a job because the rest of the union will exploit their collusion and force you out of the market or into the union.

You can work for a Non Union Shop.

How is that different from the way Standard Oil drove small oil companies out of the market or forced them into a takeover?

I don't know how Standard went about running the others out of business but if a Contractor wanted to go with a Non Union Shop he can and there really isn't anything the Union can do except picket the site. They can't stop others from working. However, if the Contractor wanted the best skilled labor he would always choose a Union Worker, especially in the building trades as they are better trained and have more experience.

Nice try demonizing Unions but if you ever worked a day of physical Labor in your life you would understand why there are Unions