$8 hr new Breadwinner Benchmark for U.S. & No Insurance

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: rjain
And if I don't want to pay those fees and don't care for those "benefits"? If the $20 is what I need to put food on the table so I can raise a family, should I be denied that right?

No

Yet the Unions deny me that right.

Will I be able to work in a company for whatever I am willing to bear because I am so destitute?

If you are capable of doing the job as well as a Union Worker would why would you want to make less money? If someone was destitue it would seem to me that a Union Membership would be a godsend for him

No, it would eat up his money and limit his advancement possibilities. Instead of being determined by the company that pays him, his advancement would be limited to what the union "allowed" him.

No, because the union won't allow me to.

No the Union won't allow their workers to work alongside you. It's up to the Contractor whether he wants to hire you or not. Granted he would have to get Scabs to do all his work but that is his right as a Independant Contractor

That's like Standard Oil or MS saying that you buy all your oil or OSes from us or you get none from us. Either all Windows or no Windows. No option to put Linux or even no OS on any computers you sell.

If such a "scab" is willing to work for less than the union's requirements, that doesn't help him get a job because the rest of the union will exploit their collusion and force you out of the market or into the union.

You can work for a Non Union Shop.

And you can buy a computer from the shop around the corner instead of a company that will provide you with good support. What kind of option is that?

How is that different from the way Standard Oil drove small oil companies out of the market or forced them into a takeover?

I don't know how Standard went about running the others out of business but if a Contractor wanted to go with a Non Union Shop he can and there really isn't anything the Union can do except picket the site. They can't stop others from working. However, if the Contractor wanted the best skilled labor he would always choose a Union Worker, especially in the building trades as they are better trained and have more experience.

That's because the only way to get that training and experience is to join their monopoly.

Nice try demonizing Unions but if you ever worked a day of physical Labor in your life you would understand why there are Unions

Um... It's a job. I have a job. Just because 100 times as many people can do your job as can do mine doesn't make you entitled to special exceptions from the prinicples of a free market, collusion-free economy.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

I guess I should have put "hypothetical example" instead. In any event, you don't explain what this person is supposed to do besides being sh!t outta luck. Not everyone in this country has the brains to go work a real job - I mean, that should be abundantly evident. What used to be valid careers for America's under-educated are turning into McJobs at minimum wage, or just vanishing all together - exported to China or some 3rd world country.

They're losing the jobs because of either the greed of the worker, who won't work for less than some amount because he thinks he is entitled to that amount of money even though his skills are worth far less in the free market, or because of minimum wage restrictions who won't allow the worker to work at a salary competitive with the free market, and the job goes overseas. There are lots of stupid people in the world. Why should we care that one set of them is losing money and the other is gaining?

Because, eventually, if you cut these "stupid people's" wages and benefits enough, at some point they're going to realize that going on public assistance (e.g. Welfare, food stamps, etc.) is a better option than some half-assed job at WalMart. And then, all of us get to pay to substain these "stupid people" rather than having them work gainfully someplace and support themselves.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I need to start a CAD union here in DesMoines.

CkG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Nice try demonizing Unions but if you ever worked a day of physical Labor in your life you would understand why there are Unions

Um... It's a job. I have a job. Just because 100 times as many people can do your job as can do mine doesn't make you entitled to special exceptions from the prinicples of a free market, collusion-free economy.

What is it that you do? I have seen you refer to your education and that you were wiser than the Common Working Man over and over.

BTW I am no longer in the trades due to a back injury. Good thing I was in the Union during a good economic time as my Insurance paid for my back operation and retraining for another field at no cost out of my pocket. I was even paid by the Insurance Company to go to school. Say what you want about the Unions as my experience with them was extremely positive as it is for most in the building trades, at least on the West Coast. My only regret is that I was injured to the point where I couldn't continue my trade as a Carpenter. Even though a 100 times more people could do my job than can do yours, I really enjoyed the physical work, the people and working outdoors. After my injury and retraining I got my Business degree and I went into Property Management where the ethics were lower than the Clinton and Bush Administrations. Talk about your Corrupt Industry; try Commercial and Residential Real Estate where kickbacks were/are a way of life. In all my time as a Union Member I never once witnessed anything remotely similar. To this day I will support Unions and not cross a Picket Line. If you choose to do so then more power to you, I would never expect an Elitist Snob to understand. If you think that workers organizing is wrong and should not be allowed all I can say is that I am glad your type are in the Minority and will never be able to do anything about it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I need to start a CAD union here in DesMoines.

CkG

Fsck it, it's to cold to walk a Picket line there. Just be glad they heat the friggin building you ungrateful Socialist

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I need to start a CAD union here in DesMoines.

CkG

Um, Cad? I think one of you is quite enough. Ah ha ha ha ha ha! Ahem.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I need to start a CAD union here in DesMoines.

CkG

Fsck it, it's to cold to walk a Picket line there. Just be glad they heat the friggin building you ungrateful Socialist

The problem is that they don't heat the building...well - the shop that I spent many a cold days building panels in.

****
What's that you say? Building panels? A CAD guy building panels? What? That isn't part of a CAD person's job description! I say we walk out! They are taking advantage of you.


CkG

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
What is it that you do? I have seen you refer to your education and that you were wiser than the Common Working Man over and over.

I'm a software developer. I worked hard to get the skills I need to do my job. I don't know if I'm wiser than some "Common Working Man", since I don't know exactly what he does that I don't.

BTW I am no longer in the trades due to a back injury. Good thing I was in the Union during a good economic time as my Insurance paid for my back operation and retraining for another field at no cost out of my pocket. I was even paid by the Insurance Company to go to school.

Ok, so you got insurance. So do Walmart employees. I don't know if it'd be as good as your insurance, but you can take advantage of predatory pricing.

Say what you want about the Unions as my experience with them was extremely positive as it is for most in the building trades, at least on the West Coast.

And selling software has been a very positive experience for Microsoft.

My only regret is that I was injured to the point where I couldn't continue my trade as a Carpenter. Even though a 100 times more people could do my job than can do yours, I really enjoyed the physical work, the people and working outdoors.

Well, I was talking about a Walmart job, not a skilled laborer. The reason why I'm doing the skilled labor that I am doing is because I like to do it, same as the reason why you liked being a carpenter.

After my injury and retraining I got my Business degree and I went into Property Management where the ethics were lower than the Clinton and Bush Administrations. Talk about your Corrupt Industry; try Commercial and Residential Real Estate where kickbacks were/are a way of life. In all my time as a Union Member I never once witnessed anything remotely similar. To this day I will support Unions and not cross a Picket Line.

Kickbacks are hardly the degree of corruption we are talking about here. We're talking about good old fashioned monopolization. I don't need to even use a real estate agent to get an apartment. It's a free, unmonopolized market, where buyers and sellers are allowed to meet freely. Specific buyers and sellers may use certain agents exclusively, but that's their choice. A landlord won't be forced to refuse me the right to lease an apartment because I didn't use an agent to find my last apartment, nor will an agent protest my going directly to a landlord.

Inflated wages and benefits (better prices) are the kickbacks you get for supporting the power of a union's monopoly. The same way that MS gave/gives better prices to people who exclusively shipped systems with Windows pre-installed, supporting MS's monopoly.

FWIW, I don't know that carpenters' unions really can behave this way. Is the industry dominated by a few huge manufacturers so that they can control them easily? If there are only a few workers in each company, then it's easy to choose whether you want unionized or independent workers. It's in industries like auto and aerospace and telecoms where they really have the opportunity to tell the few large companies in the industry that they will hire from you, or else. They need a large number of workers, so finding enough independent workers can be difficult.

In the same way, someone who wanted to buy a small amount of oil in the days of Standard Oil could have gone to a small oil company, but someone who wanted a large shipment would probably exceed the capacity of any small oil company in their part of the country. They had no choice but to go to Standard Oil.

If you choose to do so then more power to you, I would never expect an Elitist Snob to understand.

Elitist snob? Hah. The only elitists we've been talking about are union members who collude to keep poor people out of jobs in order to keep the salaries of the older members, who didn't want to progress into more rewarding careers, high.

If you think that workers organizing is wrong and should not be allowed all I can say is that I am glad your type are in the Minority and will never be able to do anything about it.

Maybe we should allow corporations to "organize" again, like they did before anti-trust regulation, in that case.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
What is it that you do? I have seen you refer to your education and that you were wiser than the Common Working Man over and over.

I'm a software developer. I worked hard to get the skills I need to do my job. I don't know if I'm wiser than some "Common Working Man", since I don't know exactly what he does that I don't.

BTW I am no longer in the trades due to a back injury. Good thing I was in the Union during a good economic time as my Insurance paid for my back operation and retraining for another field at no cost out of my pocket. I was even paid by the Insurance Company to go to school.

Ok, so you got insurance. So do Walmart employees. I don't know if it'd be as good as your insurance, but you can take advantage of predatory pricing.

Say what you want about the Unions as my experience with them was extremely positive as it is for most in the building trades, at least on the West Coast.

And selling software has been a very positive experience for Microsoft.

My only regret is that I was injured to the point where I couldn't continue my trade as a Carpenter. Even though a 100 times more people could do my job than can do yours, I really enjoyed the physical work, the people and working outdoors.

Well, I was talking about a Walmart job, not a skilled laborer. The reason why I'm doing the skilled labor that I am doing is because I like to do it, same as the reason why you liked being a carpenter.

After my injury and retraining I got my Business degree and I went into Property Management where the ethics were lower than the Clinton and Bush Administrations. Talk about your Corrupt Industry; try Commercial and Residential Real Estate where kickbacks were/are a way of life. In all my time as a Union Member I never once witnessed anything remotely similar. To this day I will support Unions and not cross a Picket Line.

Kickbacks are hardly the degree of corruption we are talking about here. We're talking about good old fashioned monopolization. I don't need to even use a real estate agent to get an apartment. It's a free, unmonopolized market, where buyers and sellers are allowed to meet freely. Specific buyers and sellers may use certain agents exclusively, but that's their choice. A landlord won't be forced to refuse me the right to lease an apartment because I didn't use an agent to find my last apartment, nor will an agent protest my going directly to a landlord.

Inflated wages and benefits (better prices) are the kickbacks you get for supporting the power of a union's monopoly. The same way that MS gave/gives better prices to people who exclusively shipped systems with Windows pre-installed, supporting MS's monopoly.

FWIW, I don't know that carpenters' unions really can behave this way. Is the industry dominated by a few huge manufacturers so that they can control them easily? If there are only a few workers in each company, then it's easy to choose whether you want unionized or independent workers. It's in industries like auto and aerospace and telecoms where they really have the opportunity to tell the few large companies in the industry that they will hire from you, or else. They need a large number of workers, so finding enough independent workers can be difficult.

In the same way, someone who wanted to buy a small amount of oil in the days of Standard Oil could have gone to a small oil company, but someone who wanted a large shipment would probably exceed the capacity of any small oil company in their part of the country. They had no choice but to go to Standard Oil.

If you choose to do so then more power to you, I would never expect an Elitist Snob to understand.

Elitist snob? Hah. The only elitists we've been talking about are union members who collude to keep poor people out of jobs in order to keep the salaries of the older members, who didn't want to progress into more rewarding careers, high.

If you think that workers organizing is wrong and should not be allowed all I can say is that I am glad your type are in the Minority and will never be able to do anything about it.

Maybe we should allow corporations to "organize" again, like they did before anti-trust regulation, in that case.

FWIW I am sorry for calling you an elitist snob. I do hope that your job doesn't get outsouced as there may be 100 others per person in Bejing in about 5 years that can do your job there. I'm not being curt, I really hope that you are rewarded for your job and that you never have to worry about losing it to someone who is willing to do it at a fraction of what you make.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

FWIW I am sorry for calling you an elitist snob. I do hope that your job doesn't get outsouced as there may be 100 others per person in Bejing in about 5 years that can do your job there. I'm not being curt, I really hope that you are rewarded for your job and that you never have to worry about losing it to someone who is willing to do it at a fraction of what you make.

As a supporter of free market economies and capitalism, I don't consider that to be a loss. It would be the same as some homeless guy looking for a job and getting one, at the expense of someone who already has enough to live.
I'll never "lose" my job, because I won't be petulant about how much I am entitled to making. If the market rates change, I'll change with them, either adjusting my target rates to match or adjusting which job market I'm in to match the rates I want.
That's what my parents did and that's what I'll do. If my parents behaved like these Walmart workers, they'd never have the quality of life they have now.
Over a person's lifetime, economies change and different industries are in demand. Move with them, not against them. All you'll do by fighting the changes in economies is make yourself and everyone who buys from you or your employer or sells to you or your employer have a harder time making money.

 

[Horsep0wer]

they should lower the ridiculous salaries of the CEO's. then we could afford the insurance.

 

[Red Dawn]

I'll never "lose" my job, because I won't be petulant about how much I am entitled to making.

I guess that can be classified as "Famous Last Words". I guess most of us aren't prepared to suffer the indignation of being considered worthless or having over expectations when when it comes to the job market. Maybe the Capitalistic System that you embbrace is not the same System that we were led to believe would help us prosper as individuals if we were to work hard!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

FWIW I am sorry for calling you an elitist snob. I do hope that your job doesn't get outsouced as there may be 100 others per person in Bejing in about 5 years that can do your job there. I'm not being curt, I really hope that you are rewarded for your job and that you never have to worry about losing it to someone who is willing to do it at a fraction of what you make.

As a supporter of free market economies and capitalism, I don't consider that to be a loss. It would be the same as some homeless guy looking for a job and getting one, at the expense of someone who already has enough to live.
I'll never "lose" my job, because I won't be petulant about how much I am entitled to making. If the market rates change, I'll change with them, either adjusting my target rates to match or adjusting which job market I'm in to match the rates I want.
That's what my parents did and that's what I'll do. If my parents behaved like these Walmart workers, they'd never have the quality of life they have now.
Over a person's lifetime, economies change and different industries are in demand. Move with them, not against them. All you'll do by fighting the changes in economies is make yourself and everyone who buys from you or your employer or sells to you or your employer have a harder time making money.

Good attitude. You will have to...This is the first generation who does'nt live as good as parents did due to your beloved free-market. Maybe we'll even see grass huts amoung our lower classes like in india and china and bathing in the mississippi river

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Today folks will seemingly drive 15 or more miles to shop and save 5$. Normal demographic analysis indicates a 3 mile preference.

Sheesh. I prefer 100 yards away, myself, but I'm willing to go 1/4 mile.

I'm speaking of city folk.. the sub sub urbanites may have to drive 15 to their mailbox..

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Maybe we'll even see ... bathing in the mississippi river

Nude women? WOOT!!!



CkG

PS - I have "bathed" in the Mississippi River. It's a heck of alot better than going all weekend smelling like beer and campfire smoke. But last trip down we got the shower on my buddy's house boat fixed - but it still uses river water(filtered).

 

[LunarRay]

Unions are viable for the protection of the workers against the exploitation of the employer. The employer will almost always seek to increase the profit of the entity and the easiest place to do that is to increase price and pay the employee less. There needs being a balance between the employer and employee. A fair balance and this is insured via the union.

In the company I slave for as CFO we are a non union Construction/Engineering company. To retain good quality employees I constantly battle with the ownership regarding the pay and benefits we ought to offer. At the end of the day we have all sorts of moral and infighting issues because notwithstanding my arguments the owner will authorized different rates for similar positions and not based on quality of work etc.. it is based on the 'squeeky wheel'. I'd much rather deal with union scale and be fair to all across the board. When we bid on Government jobs that fall under Davis Bacon or prevailing wage we pay union scale and when we bid on normal projects we pay what we can get away with. We end up paying more because there is little incentive for the worker to perform if his cohort or neighbor makes more for the same thing.

On another topic but, in this thread.. Walmart knowingly hires illegal workers via contractors.. Heard this on the news just now..
Go Walmart.. Save a buck and put another store out of business.. and give the work to illegals.. Gotta love Walmart.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are viable for the protection of the workers against the exploitation of the employer. The employer will almost always seek to increase the profit of the entity and the easiest place to do that is to increase price and pay the employee less. There needs being a balance between the employer and employee. A fair balance and this is insured via the union.

In the company I slave for as CFO we are a non union Construction/Engineering company. To retain good quality employees I constantly battle with the ownership regarding the pay and benefits we ought to offer. At the end of the day we have all sorts of moral and infighting issues because notwithstanding my arguments the owner will authorized different rates for similar positions and not based on quality of work etc.. it is based on the 'squeeky wheel'. I'd much rather deal with union scale and be fair to all across the board. When we bid on Government jobs that fall under Davis Bacon or prevailing wage we pay union scale and when we bid on normal projects we pay what we can get away with. We end up paying more because there is little incentive for the worker to perform if his cohort or neighbor makes more for the same thing.

On another topic but, in this thread.. Walmart knowingly hires illegal workers via contractors.. Heard this on the news just now..
Go Walmart.. Save a buck and put another store out of business.. and give the work to illegals.. Gotta love Walmart.

Some soceites don't need unions. Japan for one. They pay thier CEO's pennies relative and thier line workers very well. When i was there you would not believe how good the workers were. Every place was super clean, orderly, uniform just awesome...

I can't fiqure out what our probelm is....

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are viable for the protection of the workers against the exploitation of the employer. The employer will almost always seek to increase the profit of the entity and the easiest place to do that is to increase price and pay the employee less. There needs being a balance between the employer and employee. A fair balance and this is insured via the union.

In the company I slave for as CFO we are a non union Construction/Engineering company. To retain good quality employees I constantly battle with the ownership regarding the pay and benefits we ought to offer. At the end of the day we have all sorts of moral and infighting issues because notwithstanding my arguments the owner will authorized different rates for similar positions and not based on quality of work etc.. it is based on the 'squeeky wheel'. I'd much rather deal with union scale and be fair to all across the board. When we bid on Government jobs that fall under Davis Bacon or prevailing wage we pay union scale and when we bid on normal projects we pay what we can get away with. We end up paying more because there is little incentive for the worker to perform if his cohort or neighbor makes more for the same thing.

On another topic but, in this thread.. Walmart knowingly hires illegal workers via contractors.. Heard this on the news just now..
Go Walmart.. Save a buck and put another store out of business.. and give the work to illegals.. Gotta love Walmart.

Some soceites don't need unions. Japan for one. They pay thier CEO's pennies relative and thier line workers very well. When i was there you would not believe how good he workers were. Every place was super clean, orderly, uniform just awesome...

I can't fiqure out what our probelm is....

It's been years since I was in Japan. But, even then I saw the difference between US companies and Japanese. I found it a culture thing. The corporation in Japan developed a life long "family" relationship with the worker. Each worker was a part of the whole and the whole was a part of each employee. It was healthy. I even noticed they took time (paid) to exersize. This actually enabled the company to reduce repetitive and other motion related injury. Clean is less than what I saw. I saw sterile. Not in a chip factory but in a mfg. facility.. very impressive. Today.. I assume it is the same..

 

[Zebo]

Clean is less than what I saw. I saw sterile.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

FWIW I am sorry for calling you an elitist snob. I do hope that your job doesn't get outsouced as there may be 100 others per person in Bejing in about 5 years that can do your job there. I'm not being curt, I really hope that you are rewarded for your job and that you never have to worry about losing it to someone who is willing to do it at a fraction of what you make.

As a supporter of free market economies and capitalism, I don't consider that to be a loss. It would be the same as some homeless guy looking for a job and getting one, at the expense of someone who already has enough to live.
I'll never "lose" my job, because I won't be petulant about how much I am entitled to making. If the market rates change, I'll change with them, either adjusting my target rates to match or adjusting which job market I'm in to match the rates I want.
That's what my parents did and that's what I'll do. If my parents behaved like these Walmart workers, they'd never have the quality of life they have now.
Over a person's lifetime, economies change and different industries are in demand. Move with them, not against them. All you'll do by fighting the changes in economies is make yourself and everyone who buys from you or your employer or sells to you or your employer have a harder time making money.

Good attitude. You will have to...This is the first generation who does'nt live as good as parents did due to your beloved free-market. Maybe we'll even see grass huts amoung our lower classes like in india and china and bathing in the mississippi river

Another one that gets it. Kudos Zebo

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

I guess I should have put "hypothetical example" instead. In any event, you don't explain what this person is supposed to do besides being sh!t outta luck. Not everyone in this country has the brains to go work a real job - I mean, that should be abundantly evident. What used to be valid careers for America's under-educated are turning into McJobs at minimum wage, or just vanishing all together - exported to China or some 3rd world country.

They're losing the jobs because of either the greed of the worker, who won't work for less than some amount because he thinks he is entitled to that amount of money even though his skills are worth far less in the free market, or because of minimum wage restrictions who won't allow the worker to work at a salary competitive with the free market, and the job goes overseas. There are lots of stupid people in the world. Why should we care that one set of them is losing money and the other is gaining?

Because, eventually, if you cut these "stupid people's" wages and benefits enough, at some point they're going to realize that going on public assistance (e.g. Welfare, food stamps, etc.) is a better option than some half-assed job at WalMart. And then, all of us get to pay to substain these "stupid people" rather than having them work gainfully someplace and support themselves.

Nice to see you coming around and getting it DM. Kudos to you too.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are viable for the protection of the workers against the exploitation of the employer. The employer will almost always seek to increase the profit of the entity and the easiest place to do that is to increase price and pay the employee less. There needs being a balance between the employer and employee. A fair balance and this is insured via the union.

In the company I slave for as CFO we are a non union Construction/Engineering company. To retain good quality employees I constantly battle with the ownership regarding the pay and benefits we ought to offer. At the end of the day we have all sorts of moral and infighting issues because notwithstanding my arguments the owner will authorized different rates for similar positions and not based on quality of work etc.. it is based on the 'squeeky wheel'. I'd much rather deal with union scale and be fair to all across the board. When we bid on Government jobs that fall under Davis Bacon or prevailing wage we pay union scale and when we bid on normal projects we pay what we can get away with. We end up paying more because there is little incentive for the worker to perform if his cohort or neighbor makes more for the same thing.

On another topic but, in this thread.. Walmart knowingly hires illegal workers via contractors.. Heard this on the news just now..
Go Walmart.. Save a buck and put another store out of business.. and give the work to illegals.. Gotta love Walmart.

Some soceites don't need unions. Japan for one. They pay thier CEO's pennies relative and thier line workers very well. When i was there you would not believe how good the workers were. Every place was super clean, orderly, uniform just awesome...

I can't fiqure out what our probelm is....

I don't have the link ATM but I read today how they are jailing CEO's in Germany for making too much money. They have something like a $6 million cap and a few scupulous one's thought they skirted around the system and one made as much as $15 million in one year.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

I'll never "lose" my job, because I won't be petulant about how much I am entitled to making.

I guess that can be classified as "Famous Last Words". I guess most of us aren't prepared to suffer the indignation of being considered worthless or having over expectations when when it comes to the job market. Maybe the Capitalistic System that you embbrace is not the same System that we were led to believe would help us prosper as individuals if we were to work hard!

No, that IS the same system that helps us prosper as individuals if we work hard. Do a job worth paying for and you'll be paid. I don't see why you shuold be entitled to being paid more than someone else for doing the same job. If you do the job better or faster and create more value for your employer or customers, then why shouldn't you be paid more? You just need to find people who find your labor valuable. No one who hires you to do a job finds your person to be worthless. There's a difference between a business associate and a friend. You pay a business associate and he or she does work for you. It has nothing to do with whether the person likes you or not, if they are interested in running a good business. Of course, sometimes it's easier and more productive to work with people you like, but that's still a business argument. Please get over the idea that people are entitled to handouts just because they think that time should stand still.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are viable for the protection of the workers against the exploitation of the employer.

Yes. Just like any collusuion to protect from "exploitation" by their customers. Standard Oil was for the protection of the oil industry against exploitation by the users of oil.

The employer will almost always seek to increase the profit of the entity and the easiest place to do that is to increase price and pay the employee less.

Go figure. Just like we shop around for the best deal when we buy stuff and try to sell at the best price when we sell it.

There needs being a balance between the employer and employee. A fair balance and this is insured via the union.

Yeah, anti-trust legislation is harmful to producers.

In the company I slave for as CFO we are a non union Construction/Engineering company. To retain good quality employees I constantly battle with the ownership regarding the pay and benefits we ought to offer. At the end of the day we have all sorts of moral and infighting issues because notwithstanding my arguments the owner will authorized different rates for similar positions and not based on quality of work etc.. it is based on the 'squeeky wheel'. I'd much rather deal with union scale and be fair to all across the board.

So everyone should get paid equally even though some employees are more valuable to the company than others? Fix the problem, don't create more problems. If employees should be rewarded according to personal performance, do that. If you want to have specific ranks, each of which is paid equally, do that. You're the CFO, after all. You hold the purse strings.

When we bid on Government jobs that fall under Davis Bacon or prevailing wage we pay union scale and when we bid on normal projects we pay what we can get away with. We end up paying more because there is little incentive for the worker to perform if his cohort or neighbor makes more for the same thing.

Hey, look. Capitalism at work.

On another topic but, in this thread.. Walmart knowingly hires illegal workers via contractors.. Heard this on the news just now..
Go Walmart.. Save a buck and put another store out of business.. and give the work to illegals.. Gotta love Walmart.

Yeah. So they broke the law. What do you have against illegal immigrants working for opportunity in the Land of Opportunity anyway? If we lost tax revenues on the pay Walmart gave out because of these shenanigans, then I'll oppose it. Otherwise, they were just following the American Dream. Or do you have to be "approved" in order to qualify for that? Maybe it's just that the "Common Working Man" has been "unapproved", like those "illegals" weren't "approved".

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Some soceites don't need unions. Japan for one. They pay thier CEO's pennies relative and thier line workers very well. When i was there you would not believe how good the workers were. Every place was super clean, orderly, uniform just awesome...

It works both ways. The workers are effectively in bondage to their employers. They hardly have time to spend with their families after spending 80 hours at work, which contributes to the low birth rates. After all, there are only a few other companies they can work for in that industry, and I'm sure they have anti-compeition agreements.