75% of Latest BofA bailout used to pay executive bonuses

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BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: BigDH01
And the private rating agencies like Standard & Poors and Moody's? How did they do warning investors about the poor quality of the MBSs?

Not a very good job, obviously. How well their job effects their reputation is up to people.

The bottom line is that some people saw the red flags regarding Madoff, so why didn't the others?

And many people saw that the mortgages being given were crap, so why couldn't the ratings agencies? The answer is obvious. It was in their profitable interest not to report and acknowledge reality.

Neither public nor private interests are capable of running the economy. Both are subject to the faults of their individual players and their individual thirsts for money and power. We have a mixed economy that tries to minimize the damage that could be inflicted by either and we do the best we can.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: bamacre
All you have shown is that you don't know what fascism is, and that you don't fully understand the statements you quoted.

Oh, please fill me in on what I don't understand....

In regards to calling Paul a Fascist, well, I mean WTF? I don't even know where to start here.

The Baldwin quote, "America was deliberately and distinctively founded as a haven for Christians," is a of a personal belief, not a political one. In addition, it in no way infers that non-Christians do not belong in the USA, nor does it infer that they should be treated any differently in the eyes of the law. Bottom line, you are seeing what you want to see in the quote, and probably because you are not educated on what the Libertarian Party and/or the Constitution Party stand for.

Regarding the statement that he supports the displaying of the 10 Commandments in government buildings, you perhaps are inferring that he supports that they become law of the land, which is not the case. He is also not supporting that they must be displayed in all government buildings, just that such religious-in-nature displays should not be banned under the law. Such a display does not equate in a religion being sanctioned by government.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Madoff used a private auditor.... that's whole point!

But not a reputable one. That's the red flag, and many saw it.

And what is Good Auditing? Someone like Arthur Andersen? A world class auditing firm, who just happend to cook the books for Enron....

How do you account for that?

And what happened to AA? Do you think other auditing firms want to follow down AA's path? Don't you think they took a better look at what their own employees were doing after seeing what happened to AA?

No system can prevent people from committing crimes.

When it happens, will there be losers? Yes. It isn't a perfect system, it isn't described as so.

Maybe if Madoff used AA for his accounting things would have been better. Is that your argument?

Kind of, not necessarily AA, but I get your point. BUT, had Madoff used a more reputable firm, he would likely have been busted out earlier, which is why he didn't. That's the red flag some saw.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre

That is why we shouldn't rely on SEC auditing, and instead private auditors who have a reputation to maintain, a financial interest in doing effective work. The Madoff scheme is a perfect example. Investors didn't bother to ask for good auditing, that was stupid on their part. The only audit was done by a small two-man operation, that should have been a giant red flag. And it was a flag that some did see, and chose not to invest.


Are you fucking kidding me?

This is why your naive POS viewpoints will never get past 2% of the population. Even a fucking 2 year old can realize it'd never work.

Yeah yeah, insults. Yawn.

What gets me is you so adamantly defend the system that got us into this mess.

Sorry, LK, governments cannot manage economies.

Please, what you don't realize (whether you're too fucking stupid to realize is the question), is that without some government oversight the problem would be worse. Even Adam Smith recognized that.

You somehow think the market is benevolent and will have perfect insight into a business. You think that capital users will not be in cohorts with the largest capital providers to give more insight and returns to the providers. You somehow think that in market will devine and price all information into the equation to come up with the perfect model for looking for fraud.

Even more laughably, you somehow think that people are actually rational and will behave accordingly when it comes down to finding, utilizing, and acting upon such information.

This is your failure. You look at everything in a logical vacuum. You remove human greed and fear and distill it down into some libertopian ideology that is devoid of greed and fear. This is no better than communists thinking that communism will work. It. Fucking. Wont. Work.

Why? Because humans aren't rational. Humans are greedy. Humans are weak. Humans aren't ideological nor are they utopian driven. They are ME. They are MORE. They are NOW. THAT is why Madoff got away with what he did. That is why the ratings agencies got away with what they did. That is why Aurthur Andersen and multitudes of other banks and audit firms are dead. Because they simply were human, no amount of "free market" libertopian bullshit will change that.

If you had even a shred of behavioral finance education and practice you'd realize this. It's why I laugh my ass off at any Efficient Market Hypothesis, even a weak form. Humans are inefficient.

The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be. It'll get you away from this ridiculous notion of a benevolent and intelligent mass of "free market" drivel.

 

GTKeeper

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,118
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Madoff used a private auditor.... that's whole point!

But not a reputable one. That's the red flag, and many saw it.

And what is Good Auditing? Someone like Arthur Andersen? A world class auditing firm, who just happend to cook the books for Enron....

How do you account for that?

And what happened to AA? Do you think other auditing firms want to follow down AA's path? Don't you think they took a better look at what their own employees were doing after seeing what happened to AA?

You are missing my point. The reason AA / Enron got busted in the first place was because of regulation. And the reason their scheme was allowed to even begin / sustain itself was because of energy DE-regulation in Texas.

The whole free market princinple fell apart because what Enron found out was that since electricity is so indespensable, people were willing to pay whatever price Enron manipulated.

You still haven't proven to me how free market compensates for this. Also you haven't given me 1 example of a free market at work.



 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
In regards to calling Paul a Fascist, well, I mean WTF? I don't even know where to start here.

Start with the fact that Christian churches have historically been bastions of tyranny.

The Baldwin quote, "America was deliberately and distinctively founded as a haven for Christians," is a of a personal belief, not a political one. In addition, it in no way infers that non-Christians do not belong in the USA, nor does it infer that they should be treated any differently in the eyes of the law. Bottom line, you are seeing what you want to see in the quote, and probably because you are not educated on what the Libertarian Party and/or the Constitution Party stand for.

The LP is a contradiction to end all contradictions: "We want to join the gang to limit the gang's power." As for the Constitution Party, it sounds like a front for bringing back the tyranny of the church.

Preamble

The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States.

This great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been and are afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

The goal of the Constitution Party is to restore American jurisprudence to its Biblical foundations and to limit the federal government to its Constitutional boundaries.

Text

Need I say more?

Regarding the statement that he supports the displaying of the 10 Commandments in government buildings, you perhaps are inferring that he supports that they become law of the land, which is not the case. He is also not supporting that they must be displayed in all government buildings, just that such religious-in-nature displays should not be banned under the law. Such a display does not equate in a religion being sanctioned by government.

The guy is a shady minister taking money from people by telling them myths from an ancient text. Nothing shady going on here! No siree!
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: LegendKillerHumans are inefficient.

Except for the ones you pray to on a daily basis and expect to "run" the economy. :roll:

Take your Keynes bullshit elsewhere. Maybe you can put it in Evan's tin cup, I'm sure he'd eat up anything that came from your ass.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
^ Damn you're too easy to slap around. :laugh: Maybe someday someone here will take you seriously, but unlikely given that you wimp out of any discussion with content. It's guaranteed you'll do it again, here, in this thread.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Why? Because humans aren't rational. Humans are greedy. Humans are weak. Humans aren't ideological nor are they utopian driven. They are ME. They are MORE. They are NOW.

What are they in a voting booth? Your screed is a pile of insane and blatant contradictions.
 

bbdub333

Senior member
Aug 21, 2007
684
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Why? Because humans aren't rational. Humans are greedy. Humans are weak. Humans aren't ideological nor are they utopian driven. They are ME. They are MORE. They are NOW.

What are they in a voting booth? Your screed is a pile of insane and blatant contradictions.

They are exactly the same in the voting booth. They vote on emotion and for who they think will be best for THEM and THEIR family.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Why? Because humans aren't rational. Humans are greedy. Humans are weak. Humans aren't ideological nor are they utopian driven. They are ME. They are MORE. They are NOW.

What are they in a voting booth? Your screed is a pile of insane and blatant contradictions.

I wouldn't say insane, nor contradictory, but it is reality. The hope with government regulation is that it can prevent some of the irrationality, greed, and fear, from infecting the markets. Obviously it isn't fool proof.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Evan
^ Damn you're too easy to slap around. :laugh: Maybe someday someone here will take you seriously, but unlikely given that you wimp out of any discussion with content. It's guaranteed you'll do it again, here, in this thread.

Yeah, I'll take a big mac and fries, thanks.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
I take it that bamacre is conceding to my point.

I didn't bother responding, it's a never-ending argument, always is. What's the point? Not going to change anyone's mind on much here.
 

GTKeeper

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,118
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
I take it that bamacre is conceding to my point.

I didn't bother responding, it's a never-ending argument, always is. What's the point? Not going to change anyone's mind on much here.

I was simply asking where I can find the pragmaticism of your ideology. You can't give me an answer to my questions, which leads me to believe that the free market system that you believe in is just a pipe dream.

I think I just proved to you that there is no such thing as a true free market, much like there isn't a utopia out there somewhere.

I believe in a free market system, but you seem to believe that a free market has to exist without rules and regulations and more importantly that it CAN exist. Unfortunetly history has shown us that it is simply not possible to have a free market without regulation.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

I wouldn't say insane, nor contradictory, but it is reality. The hope with government regulation is that it can prevent some of the irrationality, greed, and fear, from infecting the markets. Obviously it isn't fool proof.

How are you going to get some of the irrationality, greed and fear from infecting the voting booths? That is the primary and central question.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Unfortunetly history has shown us that it is simply not possible to have a free market without regulation.

No, actually, all history has shown is that almost no time/place in history has there been a society that decided not to interfere in its markets.
 

GTKeeper

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,118
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Unfortunetly history has shown us that it is simply not possible to have a free market without regulation.

No, actually, all history has shown is that almost no time/place in history has there been a society that decided not to interfere in its markets.

I think that the big players in the market manipulate it itself. That is why they distort the free market and therefore need regulation.

No market starts out as 'free' and then society comes along and distorts it. I think your logic is flawed here.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: GTKeeper

I think that the big players in the market manipulate it itself. That is why they distort the free market and therefore need regulation.

What if one of the 'big players' is the government itself (which it almost always is)? Who is going to regulate the government? I find it interesting that when someone talks about a government conspiracy it is time to put on the tin foil hat. But when someone talks about a conspiracy of business men, everything makes sense.

Also, even if there were a few of these 'big players' at the top who need to be regulated, how does that justify taxing the living shit out of everyone, including small businesses and people making way less than six figures? Tax them to death and put their money in a system where they don't even have a prayer of ever getting it back, i.e. social security. Your solution is akin to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.

No market starts out as 'free' and then society comes along and distorts it. I think your logic is flawed here.

Actually, that is largely what happened in the U.S. after the Revolutionary War. The frontier was an almost unregulated business environment that attracted millions of Europeans. Today the U.S. is just another socialist peasant farm.

 

GTKeeper

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,118
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate


What if one of the 'big players' is the government itself (which it almost always is)? Who is going to regulate the government? I find it interesting that when someone talks about a government conspiracy it is time to put on the tin foil hat. But when someone talks about a conspiracy of business men, everything makes sense.

Until we outlaw lobbying and corporate special interest groups then this will continue forever. But ultimately the people regulate the gov't, or at least they should. The average person should be more involved in local/state governments. We control who gets elected or not.

Also, even if there were a few of these 'big players' at the top who need to be regulated, how does that justify taxing the living shit out of everyone, including small businesses and people making way less than six figures? Tax them to death and put their money in a system where they don't even have a prayer of ever getting it back, i.e. social security. Your solution is akin to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.

Am I even talking about social security or taxes?


Actually, that is largely what happened in the U.S. after the Revolutionary War. The frontier was an almost unregulated business environment that attracted millions of Europeans. Today the U.S. is just another socialist peasant farm.

Millions of Europeans came in the early 1900s as well, but that doesn't mean that the market they participated in was fair/equal or free. Sure they were attracted by it, but then by your assertion, its ok for a company to force someone to work 18 hour days because they are 'willing' to do it. In the late 1800s you can also look at companies like Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel and see what shady market practices they engaged in. Maybe thats the kind of free market you are looking for.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Unfortunetly history has shown us that it is simply not possible to have a free market without regulation.

No, actually, all history has shown is that almost no time/place in history has there been a society that decided not to interfere in its markets.

I think that the big players in the market manipulate it itself. That is why they distort the free market and therefore need regulation.

No market starts out as 'free' and then society comes along and distorts it. I think your logic is flawed here.

1. Big players in the market get that way because of government intervention, not in spite of it.

2. All markets inherently start out as free until collusion and government interference rear their heads.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
4
76
The preferred has ralied hard. That is all that matters. 40% in 2 weeks, you can't complain with.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Until we outlaw lobbying and corporate special interest groups then this will continue forever. But ultimately the people regulate the gov't, or at least they should. The average person should be more involved in local/state governments. We control who gets elected or not.

Even if lobbying and corporate special interest groups were outlawed, who is going to interpret and enforce those laws and what is to say they couldn't be paid off?

Why should the average person be involved in politics at all? The vast majority of people trying to raise a family don't have enough time. Even if you do, an enormous amount of time, and money must be invested in order to make any significant change. If you are old, retired and keen on getting into other people's business, then it is much more appealing.

Let me get this logic straight. You are saying that the government regulates the people who regulate the government..... which begs the question, if the people can regulate the government, why can't they regulate themselves?

Am I even talking about social security or taxes?

No, but my point is you should be. The big players at the top aren't the ones getting shafted nearly as hard when it comes to SS and taxes in general. Regulate them until the cows come home, when someone only making $50K a year has to fork over 30% of their income in taxes, there can't possibly be any 'social justice.'


Millions of Europeans came in the early 1900s as well, but that doesn't mean that the market they participated in was fair/equal or free. Sure they were attracted by it, but then by your assertion, its ok for a company to force someone to work 18 hour days because they are 'willing' to do it. In the late 1800s you can also look at companies like Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel and see what shady market practices they engaged in. Maybe thats the kind of free market you are looking for.

The U.S. had freer markets than Europe all through the 1900s as well. How does a company force someone to work 18 hours a day? I have never heard of a company really forcing anyone to do anything.

Even if Standard Oil and Carnegie Steel were shady, who is shadier: Standard Oil and Carnegie Steel or Congress? Who is potentially more able to abuse their power? I think the answer is clear.

The reason why your logic fails entirely is because if something is big enough to take out the 'big players' then they become the new big player, so on and so forth.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Banks that are "too big to fail" need to be broken up ASAP. Instead why are we financing this consolidation?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Banks that are "too big to fail" need to be broken up ASAP. Instead why are we financing this consolidation?

Actually, the real problem may be that they are actually too big to save. Did you ever consider that?

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