BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,544
- 14,941
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For the most part, things haven't changed too much. Unions are really the only protection working people have against the abuses of corporate America.
YES, there are some wage and safety laws (mostly the result of lobbying by the unions) but if unions disappeared tomorrow, by Monday, wages would be getting cut, benefits would disappear, and people would be fired for wearing the wrong cologne...
I've seen the abuses that happen when union protections disappear. States that have adopted Right-to-Work (for less) laws have seen wages drop dramatically in the fields that had union protections. In those states, a quick comparison of wages and benefits with states that still have union protections shows a dramatic difference in total compensation for the same jobs. (I can only speak to construction workers since that's what I did, as well as represent workers in both unionized states and RTW (for less) states.
Usually I hate unions, but I actually have to side with the teachers on this one. The teachers deserve a fair arbitration to determine whether they keep their jobs or not. Blame the city for being too incompetent to speed up the arbitration process.
Nik
Lifer
- Jun 5, 2006
- 16,101
- 3
- 56
Originally posted by: TehMac
In Orange County, a PE teacher was making 120k/yr. She retired with a FULL PENSION for the rest of her life. Talk about getting it easy.
Full pension = her getting 120k/yr rest of her life. Of course, she's probably going to blow it all. :roll:
That is absolute horse shit.
private sector != public sector
That's my freakin tax dollars and I do NOT approve of giving a PE teacher 120k a year or a fucking English teacher $70,000 a year when the nation's children graduate school fat and stupid. :|
BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,544
- 14,941
- 146
MOST teachers take courses during those three months off. Some are required to maintain their credentials, some are taken to enhance their education or to improve their skills & abilities.
For the most part, you can blame the parents for fat stupid kids. All too often, schools and teachers are looked at as just babysitters so the parents can both work...and the parents don't take any interest in their childrens' education...until they start to fail. "OMG! What do you mean Johnny hasn't turned in any homework all semester? Note from the teacher? What note. He hasn't given us any notes. I think you're just trying to blame us for your failure to teach."
Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to teach. there are too dammed many kids in the classes who don't want to be there, don't want to actually learn, so they disrupt classes, cause trouble, vandalize stuff, etc., and because the schools get paid "per head per day," and because the law protects these troublemakers, the schools don't kick them out. Teachers have to try to teach the few who actually want to be there...who want to learn, who actually believe education has some value, while dealing with/minimizing these kinds of distractions to the classroom.
Hell, I think MOST IT/IS workers are grossly overpaid. They sit on their butts, post on ATOT during the day, fap to whatever flavor of porn they prefer...and bitch about how much money the people who provided them their education get paid.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
most jobs have no unions....what dangers and abuses are you talking about though? The right for an employer to hire someone just as qualified that's willing to work for less?
Your cologne analogy shows you may be brainwashed by the unions...you know they are the real winners in this.
It's absolutely ridiculous we pay basic skilled labor full pensions that can be cashed out early and salaries approaching $100k. It's ridiculous our tax money is paying teachers to sit out.
The phone crews here get to travel in three's many times. One guy is the worker, the other the backup and the third in case either can't perform. If you ever get to ride with them you will find out they are allowed to be 1-2 hours late each day due to getting 'lost' and the same coming back from lunch. They are lucky to work 4 hours a day. Meanwhile we have to pay for these 3 clowns when there are people willing to the the job for less money and in less time.
To me unions are a slap in the face of capitalism which is what the USA is about. If I do a better job I should be paid more, if I do a pisspoor job or simply am not needed I should not be employed.
Atomic Playboy
Lifer
- Feb 6, 2007
- 16,432
- 1
- 81
3 months off sounds like a great perk, doesn't it? But even if you discount the fact that teachers have to break down classrooms, build lesson plans, take courses and rebuild their classrooms during those summer months, think about this: they work with kids day in, day out, for nine months a year. Teachers in public school work with classrooms of over 30 kids. Can you imagine working with 30 ten-year-olds every day for 8 hours? Not to mention, teachers don't get normal hours; they have to be available to stay late for detention, study hall, sporting events, PTA meetings, conferences and other random events. If teachers were paid the going rate for babysitters, they'd be making $300.00 an hour.
So it's a little bit ludicrous to claim that an extended summer break is some enormous perk. I've been around teachers my whole life, and I can tell you from experience, without that summer break, virtually every teacher would retire after five years. Parents send their kids off to camp in the summer because they can't deal with them for 2 months straight... try day in, day out, 7 hours a day for 9 and a half months. We should be thanking our lucky stars that so many people are willing to do that for the relatively shitty wages they receive.
BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,544
- 14,941
- 146
I'm the last one to argue that there are no abuses by unionized workers...but, the companies are equally to blame...after all, they signed the contracts that permit such abuses.
In my experience, if you do a piss-poor job...or simply are not needed, you get sent home, either fired for being a piss-poor worker...or laid off for not being needed. My union has never tolerated slackers or poor workmanship by its members.
MOST of the abuse of union power seems to be in public service jobs. Not all by any means, but MOST.
As for the "Slap in the face of capitalism" comment...isn't that what the unions are doing...trying to increase the value of their members? How is it any different for a company to increase its market share...or the value of its product, or for a union to negotiate better wages, benefits, or working conditions for its members?
While it's true that most (office related) industries don't have unions...and probably don't need them, the high wages paid to such workers are usually the result of the higher wages paid to unionized workers.
If a bank paid its people minimum wage, why would they do that instead of working in a unionized environment where they could make 2, 3, or 4 times as much? Do they really want their friends to know they can't add?
Higher union wages causes the wages of all jobs, especially in related industries, to go up as the companies have to compete against those increased wages.
Oh wait...you think everyone (except you) should have to work for whatever pittance the Big-Boss-Man chooses to pay the slaves in his company...:roll:
Dumac
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2005
- 9,391
- 1
- 0
Not in my experience. Of about 100 High School Teachers, maybe 5 took courses during summer break.
No, don't make teachers out to be only interested in the true hard workers. Most teachers I have experienced aren't interested in anything but getting paid (and complain every day about being paid too little, despite doing barely any work).
I don't owe my HS teachers anything. They didn't teach me shit. I should say that I succeeded academically despite my teachers.
There are a few exceptions of course. There are good teachers, kind teachers, and even spectacular teachers. However, finding these teachers in the current pool of employed teachers is like finding a needle in a haystack.
The problem with teaching is that it takes someone with skill, inspiration, and a certain attitude to be a decent teacher. However, pretty much anyone can become one. It's an easy job to get, an easy job to do, and an easy job to keep.
This is different than IT works because I don't pay for their salaries. Nor are my children directly affected by their work ethic.
runzwithsizorz
Diamond Member
- Jan 24, 2002
- 3,497
- 14
- 76
Originally posted by: TehMac
In Orange County, a PE teacher was making 120k/yr. She retired with a FULL PENSION for the rest of her life. Talk about getting it easy.
Full pension = her getting 120k/yr rest of her life. Of course, she's probably going to blow it all. :roll:
Somehow, this doesn't sound right. It is true that some school districts pay more, But my wife taught school in San Diego, she had 3 degrees, 1 being her masters, and when she retired with full benefits, it was only around 40k. Hmmmmmm
Oh, and BTW something we found out the hard way, if you move out of California you lose the health care portion of your retirement package.
MrDudeMan
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 15,069
- 94
- 91
Not to mention their day starts earlier and ends at the same time compared to a lot of other jobs. It is ridiculous for people to get angry that teachers can make as much as other professions. Why the hell shouldn't they? They have harder jobs in terms of what they are forced to handle every day than a lot of people. I make more than 2x what my wife does (engineer/teacher) and her day is typically more stressful than mine. She also has more responsibility. We both have a college degree and she is an intelligent person, yet makes way less money than I do for a job that is arguably more important. The "perks" people like to claim teachers get aren't really perks as described above if you know the whole story. Even if they worked the whole summer and an increased salary reflected that, it would only be (at the MOST) 33% more money, which for a lot of counties still wouldn't put them over 45k. My wife only gets 7 weeks off for the summer and a significant portion of that time is spent preparing for the next school year.
Like usual, a lot of ATOThugs talking out of their ass.
This is true of any profession. The difference is most of them don't actually get paid 30k.
Depends where you live. In good school systems, the jobs are mostly definitely not easy to get. My wife got extremely lucky to get a job where we live because the typical teacher has to wait three years here before they will find a job.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
They signed the contracts because the unions came to them saying unless they did they would have no employees.
Unions are promoting a more socialism approach that the workers should approach the pay of their management. (then the management wants more).
With IS/IT that many like to bring up, you have much more people making $20-30k per year than $100k+....yet no autoworker makes that little. Also most unions tie in a pension...something that is worth a buttload in salary.
You last line is the key one. People choose to work for a certain salary. If the company is not offering what it takes then the spot will not get filled.
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