7.9 earthquake in China

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StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Now it looks like they may be about to lose a dam.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...re_as/china_earthquake

Shoddy Chinese building practices/lack of true building codes going to take even more of a toll?

Will you shut the fvck up about "Shoddy Chinese building practices"? Jesus Christ, have some human compassion for once instead of seeing this as another opportunity to bash China for "taking away our jobs".

China is a developing country which is experiencing unprecedented growth so it's no surprise that many buildings in their cities don't match up to ours. But I wouldn't get too overconfident in our buildings being able to withstand a 7.9 earthquake without many casualties either. I dread what's going to happen if/when the big one strikes in California.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,896
14,296
146
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.
 

Qianglong

Senior member
Jan 29, 2006
937
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

Hey buddy..your american buildings fare no better...what happened in that bridge a while a ago? Did it suddenly collapse..hmm..oh how about the 9.11? The so called superior american engineering and construction can't even withstand two little plane strike? Good grief and now you are saying Chinese building collapse at a 7.9 earthquake. So please STFU.
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?
 

Qianglong

Senior member
Jan 29, 2006
937
0
0
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?

Which is another reason why that guy is just an asinine a*hole.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
shoddy construction is at fault for some of the casualties. why did one school collapse instantly when its neighboring buildings did not? Buildings did survive the earthquake but important buildings like schools and hospitals did not.

He said a civil engineer in China has told him the country has no centralized, uniform code for earthquake-resistant public buildings such as schools or hospitals, and the size of the fallen beams and columns pictured in video of the disaster appear inadequate to the task.

"Some of the columns that are broken have exposed rebar that is not tied together essentially with horizontal bands, which makes sure the rebar stays attached to each other and to the concrete," he said.

DesRoches said the collapse of schools was surprising, because they typically are built to tougher standards. But he said many of the buildings that fell were built before 1976, when an earthquake that killed 250,000 people spurred Chinese authorities to require earthquake-resistant construction for many buildings.
Chinese construction under scrutiny after quake

Engineers who have worked in the mountainous region of the quake's epicenter, in Wenchuan County, say a lot of unregulated construction has taken place over the years.
China's building codes not always followed
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,896
14,296
146
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

Hey buddy..your american buildings fare no better...what happened in that bridge a while a ago? Did it suddenly collapse..hmm..oh how about the 9.11? The so called superior american engineering and construction can't even withstand two little plane strike? Good grief and now you are saying Chinese building collapse at a 7.9 earthquake. So please STFU.

Actually, I believe I said about as much in a post above yours:

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The 89 Loma Prieta quake was a 6.9 and created quite a bit of havoc in the SF Bay area, but relatively few people were killed, and most of those were killed when the Cypress Freeway collapsed onto itself. (double-decker freeway) A 7.9, (10X stonger) would have caused quite a bit more damage, but would it have done the kind of damage seen in China? I don't think so, as our earthquake standards are much better, and our building inspectors far less corrupt.

As for the 9-11 attacks...yeah, that was just shoddy workmanship...(although some of it MAY indeed be caused by corrupt inspectors overlooking substandard materials on the insulation)

There's a thread in Off-Topic that relates very much to this thread:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=38&threadid=2187791

Where the OP mentioned that for some reason, this disaster just doesn't have much, if any, impact on him personally. He just doesn't really care.

Here's my reply in the thread, (and also, my reply to Qianglong:

OP, this doesn't have much impact on me either. I think part of the cause of the high death toll is the shoddy construction practices and corrupt building inspectors in China, combined with low quality materials, nearly non-existant building codes or enforcement of the ones they do have.
I built bridges for much of my working career. Almost every government entity we worked for forbid the use of foreign steel. In part to support American steel producers, but more, because of low quality products that came with falsified certifications.
For example: one major SF bridge retrofit I worked on 10 years ago bought bolts for the steel erection/connections from a contractor who ended up buying them from a Chinese company.
They came in with certifications that met Cal-Trans specs, every bucket of bolts & nuts had a similar cert attached to it, but when Cal-Trans set up their field test for the bolts, over 90% of them failed to meet shear tests, torque tests, and several others. Why?
Because they were poorly made, of sub-standard materials, and came with fraudulent certifications.
Needless to say, the company had to put in a rush order for replacement bolts, and it took them a couple of months to fill the order, causing delays in the construction process. This was not a small order of bolts/nuts BTW, it was basically for a full 40 foot semi load of specialized structural steel connectors...not the kind of thing you could run down to Home Depot and buy...oh wait, those would be Chinese made too...
They were going to sue the supplier but I never did hear how the lawsuit ended up.

Chinese companies have EARNED the reputation for turning out sub-standard, cheap quality junk. It wasn't given to them by the media, nor by the unions who represented displaced workers, they earned it by turning out sub-standard quality, cheap JUNK, some of it poisonous to the very consumers it was meant for.

There's a thread in P&N on the subject of the Chinese quake, and I opined much the same thing about building quality being at least a part of the cause of the high death toll, and got the following in my PM box:

"Hey buddy..your american buildings fare no better...what happened in that bridge a while a ago? Did it suddenly collapse..hmm..oh how about the 9.11? The so called superior american engineering and construction can't even withstand two little plane strike? Good grief and now you are saying Chinese building collapse at a 7.9 earthquake. So please STFU. "

Sounds like I struck a nerve.

I'm much older than most of the people here. I was raised to hate and distrust Communists. (Better Dead than Red, Kill a Commie for your Mommie, that sort of thing) and went to war against the evil Communists in Vietnam. We were also taught that the Chicoms were behind the North Vietnam aggression against the Republic of South Vietnam, and were our sworn enemy as well.
While I'm glad to see the Chinese government making some changes for the better, as with Tianamen Square, we're reminded that they are still the Evil Red Menace.

Enough P&N rambling

OP, like you, I'm somewhat surprised that I don't care more about this tragedy nor the one in Burma, nor the big Iranian earthquake a while back. I don't think it's a hate or dislike for their people, nearly as much as it is a hate and dislike for their government.

 

Xylitol

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2005
6,617
0
76
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?

Which is another reason why that guy is just an asinine a*hole.

You need to learn you geography. There are practically NO earthquakes in the midwest. Brick buildings are banned in places with high earthquake rates such as California.

I hafta say that BoomerD makes a lot of sense with his construction argument and your statement about how the World Trade Center couldn't handle 2 airplanes is stupid
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
0
0
Originally posted by: Xylitol
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?

Which is another reason why that guy is just an asinine a*hole.

You need to learn you geography. There are practically NO earthquakes in the midwest. Brick buildings are banned in places with high earthquake rates such as California.

I hafta say that BoomerD makes a lot of sense with his construction argument and your statement about how the World Trade Center couldn't handle 2 airplanes is stupid

My point was exactly that. There are almost no earthquakes in the Midwest. I know, as my family came from Missouri. I've read that the same is the case in this area of Sichuan (and I would like someone more in the know to confirm this. Since I'm seeing completely contradictory information regarding this). If this were the case, the area where this massive earthquake took place is NOT earthquake prone, as are other areas in China and the pacific. My question then, was how would the Midwest fare if a massive earthquake ripped through?
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: Xylitol
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?

Which is another reason why that guy is just an asinine a*hole.

You need to learn you geography. There are practically NO earthquakes in the midwest. Brick buildings are banned in places with high earthquake rates such as California.

I hafta say that BoomerD makes a lot of sense with his construction argument and your statement about how the World Trade Center couldn't handle 2 airplanes is stupid

My point was exactly that. There are almost no earthquakes in the Midwest. I know, as my family came from Missouri. I've read that the same is the case in this area of Sichuan (and I would like someone more in the know to confirm this. Since I'm seeing completely contradictory information regarding this). If this were the case, the area where this massive earthquake took place is NOT earthquake prone, as are other areas in China and the pacific. My question then, was how would the Midwest fare if a massive earthquake ripped through?

The new Madrid fault could be worse than any in California

Because of the unconsolidated sediments which are a major part of the underlying geology of the Mississippi embayment, as well as the river sediments along the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys to the north and east (note the red fingers extending up these valleys in the image above), large quakes have the potential for more widespread damage than major quakes on the west coast. Additionally, the area affected will be larger since beyond the rift zone itself there are few other faults to attenuate the seismic waves.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,896
14,296
146
Here's a tidbit that the MSM hasn't been talking about much:
http://iht.com/articles/2008/05/16/asia/nukes.php

"In China, experts on alert for quake damage to nuclear facilities
By William J. Broad Published: May 16, 2008

China's main centers for designing, making and storing nuclear arms lie in the shattered earthquake zone, leading Western experts to look for signs of any damage that might allow radioactivity to escape.

A senior U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the issue, said the United States was using spy satellites and other means to try to monitor the sprawling nuclear plants.

"There appear to be no immediate concerns," the official said.

Nonetheless, "it's potentially a serious issue," Hans Kristensen, a nuclear arms expert at the Federation of American Scientists, a private group in Washington, said in an interview.

"Radioactive materials could be released if there's damage."

China began building the plants in the 1960s, calculating that their remote locations would make them less vulnerable to enemy attack.

China's main complex for making nuclear warhead fuel, code named Plant 821, is beside a river in a hilly, forested part of the earthquake zone. It is some 25 kilometers, or 15 miles, northwest of Guangyuan in Sichuan Province. The vast site holds China's largest production reactor and factories that mine its spent fuel for plutonium - the main ingredient for modern nuclear arms.

Jeffrey Lewis, an arms control specialist at the New America Foundation, a nonprofit research group in Washington, said the military buildings that make up Plant 821 were probably unusually strong compared with civilian structures.

"I'd rather have been in the reactor building than a grade school" when the quake struck, he said. The site's various plants "were built as military facilities, and so I wouldn't be surprised if, by and large, they came through pretty well."

Plutonium is a radioactive toxin that can be made into compact nuclear arms that are relatively easy to deliver.

It is unclear if the plutonium-production reactor at Plant 821 has operated recently. Kristensen of the scientists federation said China was expanding its nuclear forces to 240 warheads in its overall stockpile from around 200.

Reactors are usually rigged to shut down in an earthquake, and it is unclear if the Plant 821 reactor could undergo the same kind of disaster that struck the Chernobyl reactor in 1986. It spewed radioactivity across large parts of Russia and Europe.

"From what I know, they're a really brilliant people and I think they do things the right way," said Danny Stillman, a former director of intelligence at Los Alamos National Laboratory and an expert on the Chinese nuclear program because of extensive travels in the 1990s to its secretive sites and bases.

Closer to the epicenter of the quake that struck Monday is Mianyang, a science city whose outskirts house the primary laboratory for the design of Chinese nuclear arms. It is considered the Chinese equal to Los Alamos. Known as the Chinese Academy of Engineering Physics, it too, Stillman said, houses a reactor, though a smaller one meant for research.

In China, the academy leads in the research, development and testing of nuclear weapons and has centers throughout Sichuan Province.

"I think this is not a no-cost moment for their labs but is not necessarily a human health risk," Lewis of the New America Foundation, who visited Mianyang last summer, said of the academy's main facilities. "We should keep in mind that there is certainly stuff out in the hills that might have been more seriously damaged." North of the city, for example, is a plant that shapes plutonium into the compact spheres that ignite nuclear weapons.

Nuclear experts said that closer to the epicenter of the earthquake, in rugged hills a two-hour drive west of Mianyang, China runs a highly secretive center that houses a prompt-burst reactor. It mimics the rush of speeding subatomic particles that an exploding atom bomb spews out in its first microseconds.

North, in an even more inaccessible region, nuclear experts said, China maintains a hidden complex of large tunnels in the side of a mountain where it stores nuclear arms. "It's very close to the epicenter," said one specialist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because, to the best of his knowledge, the exact location of the secret complex had never been publicly disclosed.

Stillman, the former intelligence chief at Los Alamos, said he had immense regard for the Chinese weapons scientists and assumed that many of their nuclear plants had been built to ride out the pounding of an earthquake or other disasters, natural or man-made."



Let's all hope that this doesn't "add insult to injury" for the people trying to claw their way back from this quake. A major nuclear leak in the area could be as disastrous or worse than the actual quake itself.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: Thump553
I very rarely say anything nice about Red China's government, but from all appearances they have done a first rate job in responding to this diaster. Kudos to them and godspeed.

Considering how fast buidlings have been going up there, odds are that a few corners have been cut in the construction. But knowing China, if that is established they will have the contractors/inspectors executed. Heck, here we have a tough time even firing the inspectors.


I watched an interview last night and they said the housing there is called Tofu Architecture.
Most of the cities were constructed along the old rice patties and are built with no building codes at all. Its build it as quick and cheap as possible.

They name it after Tofu because of the way the buildings are so sorry they are expected to fall in a quake. No structure at all.

Twenty-four hours after the quake hit, they were losing hope and only rage was left. They blamed everyone: soldiers for coming too late, the builders for cutting corners, officials for ? they claimed - siphoning off cash.

?The contractors can?t have been qualified. It?s a ?tofu? [soft and shoddy] building. Please, help us release this news,? the husband said.

?About 450 were inside, in nine classes and it collapsed completely from the top to the ground. It didn?t fall over; it was almost like an explosion.?

The distraught couple?s neighbour, still half-hoping for a sight of her daughter, burst out angrily: ?Why isn?t there money to build a good school for our kids? Chinese officials are too corrupt and bad.

?These buildings outside have been here for 20 years and didn?t collapse - the school was only 10 years old. They took the money from investment, so they took the lives of hundreds of kids. They have money for prostitutes and second wives but they don?t have money for our children. This is not a natural disaster - this is done by humans.?
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: Xylitol
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
Originally posted by: BoomerD
The only time I'll quit bitching about crappy Chinese products is when they actually improve them. Their lack of standards and forged certs is why most government agencies forbid the use of imported steel in major construction jobs.

I do feel compassion for the many people killed/injured/displaced by this tragedy, but also know that a LOT of the damage caused was at least partly because of shoddy construction practices....as it often is in third-world nations.

:roll: I think you're probably one of the only people I've seen making this argument.

Pray tell, how many buildings in the US, let alone the world, can withstand a 7.9 quake? Would the Bay Bridge have survived at 7.9? I don't know...

And consider the big, old brick homes very numerous in the midwest?

Which is another reason why that guy is just an asinine a*hole.

You need to learn you geography. There are practically NO earthquakes in the midwest. Brick buildings are banned in places with high earthquake rates such as California.

I hafta say that BoomerD makes a lot of sense with his construction argument and your statement about how the World Trade Center couldn't handle 2 airplanes is stupid

My point was exactly that. There are almost no earthquakes in the Midwest. I know, as my family came from Missouri. I've read that the same is the case in this area of Sichuan (and I would like someone more in the know to confirm this. Since I'm seeing completely contradictory information regarding this). If this were the case, the area where this massive earthquake took place is NOT earthquake prone, as are other areas in China and the pacific. My question then, was how would the Midwest fare if a massive earthquake ripped through?

"In this case, where the earthquake occurred, there are a magnitude 4 earthquakes every couple of months," says Lupei Zhu, an associate professor of geophysics, at St. Louis University in Missouri, and a former employee of the China Earthquake Administration, which oversees public awareness and the collection of seismic data for the country.
China's quake: Why did so many schools collapse?

The Sichuan province of China has seen many earthquakes since 1900. Here is a list of those particular earthquakes which have had a magnitude of over 7.0:
Name Magnitude Date Epicenter Cause
1933 Mao earthquake 7.5 Mao County (??)
1955 Kangding earthquake 7.5 Kangding County (???)
1973 Luhuo earthquake 7.9 Luhuo County (???)
1976 Songpan-Pingwu earthquake 7.2 Songpan County(??) and Pingwu County (???)
2008 Wenchuan earthquake 7.9 14:28:04.1 CST (06:28:04.1 UTC)
12 May 2008 Wenchuan County (???)
31°01'16?N 103°22'01?E? at 10km deep Longmenshan Fault
Wiki

edit: generally any place where there are mountain ranges has fault lines for earthquakes. Here you have your Indian plate pushing into Asia.
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