Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[Ajay]

I know you joke, but I wanted to mention power is one of the few things we do know about Raptor Lake. It will consume slightly less than ADL-S, but no big change.

I was hoping it'd be a joke. Zen4 seems well poised to crush it unless Intel can pull off a miracle.

 

[jpiniero]

I just don't see many existing Zen+/Zen2 owners rushing out to get one, assuming the rumoured $500+ pricepoint is true. The earlier Zen chips were all about value and price/performance, and I just don't see the 5800X3D being that appealing to that crowd. Agree to disagree here.

And that might be OK. Clearly AMD wants people to buy Zen 4 instead.

 

[Timorous]

Anyone seriously considering buying a 5800X3D probably doesn't care that much about value though, let's be real here. If you want value for gaming you'll probably just get an i5 12400 / B660 / 32GB DDR4 and still possibly have change left over compared to a 5800X3D on its own.

I just don't see many existing Zen+/Zen2 owners rushing out to get one, assuming the rumoured $500+ pricepoint is true. The earlier Zen chips were all about value and price/performance, and I just don't see the 5800X3D being that appealing to that crowd. Agree to disagree here.

12400 + B660M Mortar is £380 in the UK. If you have a B450+ or A320 board then you can spend £260 on a 5600X and get the same performance for £120 less.

12700 + B660M Mortar is £540. This is a great option since it gets close to peak gaming performance and has good productivity performance for a good price.

If the 5800X3D comes in at the same price as the 5800X did then it'll be around £400. Quite a saving vs that ADL system and it will have better gaming performance.

So yea, the 5800X3D may very well be the cheapest way to get to or above that gaming performance level for owners of compatible motherboards.

I can't see 5800X3D being that popular for new builders unless AMD go aggressive on pricing which I don't think they will. It could be a great choice for upgraders though.

EDIT: Looking at B550 prices in the UK a £400 5800X3D + B550M Mortar is also around the £520-550 price point depending if you go with the WiFi version or not. So for £550 the trade off is gaming performance or productivity performance since I expect the 12700 to beat the 5800X3D in productivity but there will be a few niches the extra cache really helps the 5800.

As well prices as ADL CPUs are the motherboards are expensive (£200 for a B660M Mortar vs £150 for the B550M Wifi version and AMD side you can go for the £90 B550M GB Aurous Elite which will do fine with a 5600X). The actual Price/Perf at the 5600/12400 level is close if you need CPU + Mobo and if you just need CPU then AMD wins.

 

[nicalandia]

I don't really see the 5800x3d as being a good upgrade choice for anyone running any of the 5000x series Ryzen processors. It's still not going to be a big upgrade over the 5600x with respect to gaming.

Show me a 5600X beating a 12900K in gaming, this CPU will beat the 12900K on day one at 4.5 Ghz, with PBO and good cooling it will beat them even worst

 

[LightningZ71]

For average frame rates, without overclocking, the difference in FAR Cry 6 is roughly 10% at 1080p with whatever card they used. Both (12900k and 5600x) are at or above roughly 130-140fps. That's a barely noticeable difference. Also, we know nothing about how the 5800x3d behaves with respect to 99% frame rates, which is the thing that you notice the most once you hit triple digit frames.

I fail to see how the 5800x3d is worth a $500+ price tag for something you won't notice. The place where those frames would be most coveted, like in CS:GO, barely move the needle in AMD'S own presentation!

 

[Timorous]

For average frame rates, without overclocking, the difference in FAR Cry 6 is roughly 10% at 1080p with whatever card they used. Both (12900k and 5600x) are at or above roughly 130-140fps. That's a barely noticeable difference. Also, we know nothing about how the 5800x3d behaves with respect to 99% frame rates, which is the thing that you notice the most once you hit triple digit frames.

I fail to see how the 5800x3d is worth a $500+ price tag for something you won't notice. The place where those frames would be most coveted, like in CS:GO, barely move the needle in AMD'S own presentation!

On that basis 5600X + cheap B550 is the cheapest build currently so why go ADL at all? Or you could go 11400+ B560 and save even more money.

The second you want a 12700 or 12600k + cpu you are also spending £200+ on a mobo and are already in the £500 upgrade bracket so if the choice is for gaming only and I am already on zen3 compatible AM4 then the 5800X3D is a cheaper option than 12700 + B660 assuming the 5800X3D is not redicuilosly priced. It will also be faster for gaming.

The 5800X3D fills a niche which is AM4 owners wanting a final upgrade for games. The kind of owners who are less likely to plonk down the money required to get into an AM5 + Zen 4 system.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

Show me a 5600X beating a 12900K in gaming, this CPU will beat the 12900K on day one at 4.5 Ghz, with PBO and good cooling it will beat them even worst



View attachment 55530

That is an unfair comparison, your comparing a $650 8p+8e core cpu to a $280 6c/12t cpu. of course the 12900k is gonna be at the top of that chart..
Edit: Also that chart does not show a 5600x beating a 12900k by any margin..
Maybe a more fair comparison would be a 12400f vs a 5600x ??

 

[nicalandia]

For average frame rates, without overclocking, the difference in FAR Cry 6 is roughly 10% at 1080p with whatever card they used. Both (12900k and 5600x) are at or above roughly 130-140fps. That's a barely noticeable difference. Also, we know nothing about how the 5800x3d behaves with respect to 99% frame rates, which is the thing that you notice the most once you hit triple digit frames.

I fail to see how the 5800x3d is worth a $500+ price tag for something you won't notice. The place where those frames would be most coveted, like in CS:GO, barely move the needle in AMD'S own presentation!

Dude, you are just grasping at straws now.

 

[nicalandia]

That is an unfair comparison, your comparing a $650 8p+8e core cpu to a $280 6c/12t cpu. of course the 12900k is gonna be at the top of that chart..
Edit: Also that chart does not show a 5600x beating a 12900k by any margin..
Maybe a more fair comparison would be a 12400f vs a 5600x ??

Some dude say that the 5800X3D would not be much of an upgrade compared to the 5600X.... Except the 5800X3D will beat it(along with the 12700K, 12900K) at gaming. So why even compare them? One would be the Ultimate Gaming King, the other is a mid range gaming CPU

 

[Schmide]

I hear you and completely understand your way of thinking. I do think AMD has lost some customers. If people were honest. Anybody who had an AMD system prior to Ryzen and after Core 2 Duo was released by intel. They would be laughed out of any forum and people would think whoever sold them a system with an AMD system rolled them. I think I paid $172 for my Ryzen 3600 through newegg via Ebay.

There were points where bulldozer was so cheap it had value on the market. You could get fx-8350 for $70 new, AM3+ boards for $50. I have a couple in my garage.

Remember their direct competition back in the day was the 2600k, which as games became more multi-threaded, the fx-8350 competed quite well.

Seriously, is your ego so big you laugh people with lesser systems off a forum? Shame. That's not how any respectable forum member should act.

I am not calling the B550 and X570 motherboards a scam. But the VRM and PCB layers (luxury motherboards) are overpriced and do not return any real performance gains over standard B350/X370 and B450/X470 motherboards. I realize they added PCI-4 to the current generation of motherboards. PCI-5 is here so that was an evolutionary thing that only shows up on benchmarks and not real world performance.

If you preface your words with "not a scam" you're calling it a scam.

Every system has its tiers. You buy a high end motherboard for the features, VRM heatsinks, high end audio, wireless, m2 4x slots, etc, not the ability to run a certain processor.

The big Ryzen selling point was the performance, low energy consumption and affordable/inexpensive motherboards. I am not saying backplates on motherboards are not a nice to have feature. But $200+ motherboards with enhanced VRM performance and more PCB layers is not worth the increase in price based on performance numbers.

The big selling point was competition. Ryzen 1 was, for the most part, behind much of intel's line back in the day and this says something about AMD's disposition to being on top. They are fine in 2nd place. They've spent most of their time there.

I have been playing the waiting game with GPU and CPU upgrades.

I pointed out in a previous post that AMD's entire line of Zen 3 CPU's are in stock at both newegg and Amazon. AMD continues to talk of supply issues but the marketplace has no shortage of AMD CPU's.

What is worse. When RDNA2 was released AMD had an executive taking bets on AMD's ability to meet the demand of AMD GPU's. People do not believe that scarcity is a manufactured phenomena. Nvidia said there was a supply issue and Nvidia has GPU's at a higher availability rate compared to AMD.

I think the 5800x3d would be 5% improvement gaming @ 1440p and 2-3% @ 4K gaming. The 15% is obviously 1080p where both AMD and Intel love to play the numbers game at 1080P. It looks good on paper.

This is one area AMD is by far more kind, people with AM4 have seen an upgrade path for many years with drop in replacements that make certain skews incredibly economic. With many licenses tied to the motherboard, there is an easy path to replacing and trading existing parts down to less enthusiastic users.

I have a 3900x and a 5800x, the fact that I can go to microcenter and bundle a high end processor with a lesser motherboard and gift that to a friend/family member with my 3900x, outweighs chasing a few percentage points for a 12k platform. I am one user that would/is planing to buy a 5950x vcache because of the above.

 

[Abwx]

. AMD said that the V-cache has a small effect on thermals. Is 500 MHz (or more) a small effect?

They can clock higher but as i already explained a single core at 20W will create a hotspot and its heat cant be dissipated as efficently because of the added thermal resistance.

You can take the highest clocking chip and it would still be limited to 4.5GHz or slightly more if it works at lower average power like the 5950X, if they had released such an SKU they would had to downscale the single core frequency at 4.6GHz at best, down from its usual 4.9.

 

[Mopetar]

We also don't know how aggressively AMD is binning these chips either. With regular Zen 3 chiplets there were dozens of different products and categories to bin into, but here there's a more limited supply and a more limited number of parts, which means the base numbers have to be lower if only a single product is being offered. We might see a case where some 5800X3D CPUs are basically at their limits and others where the chip can clock much higher or even at the normal 5800X levels. Kind of a pitty that Silicon Lottery shut down as this might have been a viable chip for them to test and resell.

 

[Ajay]

The sad thing is that this CPU isn't due to sometime in the spring of this year. So no solid comparison can actually be made till it comes out (aside from some random leaked Geekbench scores and whatnot).

We don't even know what the final MSRP will be since it isn't on the market yet. I don't understand the delayed release, or the offering of only one SKU - guess we'll know more when it's released, priced and benched.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

There were points where bulldozer was so cheap it had value on the market. You could get fx-8350 for $70 new, AM3+ boards for $50. I have a couple in my garage.

Remember their direct competition back in the day was the 2600k, which as games became more multi-threaded, the fx-8350 competed quite well.

Seriously, is your ego so big you laugh people with lesser systems off a forum? Shame. That's not how any respectable forum member should act.



If you preface your words with "not a scam" you're calling it a scam.

Every system has its tiers. You buy a high end motherboard for the features, VRM heatsinks, high end audio, wireless, m2 4x slots, etc, not the ability to run a certain processor.



The big selling point was competition. Ryzen 1 was, for the most part, behind much of intel's line back in the day and this says something about AMD's disposition to being on top. They are fine in 2nd place. They've spent most of their time there.



This is one area AMD is by far more kind, people with AM4 have seen an upgrade path for many years with drop in replacements that make certain skews incredibly economic. With many licenses tied to the motherboard, there is an easy path to replacing and trading existing parts down to less enthusiastic users.

I have a 3900x and a 5800x, the fact that I can go to microcenter and bundle a high end processor with a lesser motherboard and gift that to a friend/family member with my 3900x, outweighs chasing a few percentage points for a 12k platform. I am one user that would/is planing to buy a 5950x vcache because of the above.

But there isn't going to be a 5950x3d only 5800x3d correct?? If there was such a part I would for sure snag one and call it a day and be done with all this what to buy next BS..

 

[ryanjagtap]

The sad thing is that this CPU isn't due to sometime in the spring of this year. So no solid comparison can actually be made till it comes out (aside from some random leaked Geekbench scores and whatnot).

We don't even know what the final MSRP will be since it isn't on the market yet. I don't understand the delayed release, or the offering of only one SKU - guess we'll know more when it's released, priced and benched.

With AMD moving it's product stack to 6nm and 5nm for most of the products, I think we'll have a greater stock of v-cache models on 7nm and other processors than 5800X3D till TSMC stops 7nm. It may be later down the line when AMD will have completed it's contracts of Milan-X though.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It may be later down the line when AMD will have completed it's contracts of Milan-X though.

They'll have long-term service contracts. TSMC isn't going to "stop" N7 for quite some time. They still ship significant volume of 16nm after all.

That being said, how many products will AMD have on N7 moving forward? There's Milan-X, Vermeer-X, and some unknown amount of B2-stepping Vermeer. Anything else?

 

[Schmide]

But there isn't going to be a 5950x3d only 5800x3d correct?? If there was such a part I would for sure snag one and call it a day and be done with all this what to buy next BS..

From past presentations specs on

 

[Justinbaileyman]

From past presentations specs on

It doesn't make sense to release new sku's on a old outdated platform/socket after the launch of a new platform/socket.
Besides Lisa Su waited till the end of the presentation to show off the 3950x at that event. She did not show or even hint at anything greater then a 5800x3d.

 

[Schmide]

She did not show or even hint at anything greater then a 5800x3d.

Have you watched major AMD release? Although I am being tongue and cheek in the post, if you watched previous launches, things often go that way.

The 5700xt launch didn't have a higher end part and that kind of sways things the other way. I will say, more often than not if AMD has the part, it will find a way into the segments.

Parts of Threadripper platform have been neglected, so lines can be drawn.

Although AMD has made inroads into having enough partners to produce boards for a new socket launch, it would certainly sell more processors if the existing motherboard install base is part of the equation.

 

[Justinbaileyman]

Well I am keeping my fingers crossed hard locked style in hopes for a higher end sku then the 5800x3d. I just purchased a new x570s Aorus Master motherboard in such hopes of an upgrade. If nothing else I figured I could always get a 5950x as a upgrade to my 3950x and just reuse my currently owned memory. This will help me hold off till AM5 socket and till DDR5 6400 is a thing and prices are reasonable. I was gonna upgrade to 12900k but after seeing the prices of motherboards and ram for a miniscule performance gain I decided against that pretty quickly.

 

[Doug S]

They'll have long-term service contracts. TSMC isn't going to "stop" N7 for quite some time. They still ship significant volume of 16nm after all.

TSMC still ships wafers in processes measured in microns that haven't been state of the art for decades. They will probably be shipping N7 wafers when we're both dead, unless there's a major technological shift and no one makes transistors in a fab anymore.

 

[Saylick]

I would hope that they price the V-cache SKUs pretty competitively... 15% more gaming performance should translate proportionally to cost, hopefully. Yeah, one can argue that cost never scales with performance, but you can also argue that the performance increase isn't across all workloads either.

Anyways, I'm thinking if the vanilla 5800X goes for $400, which is probably due for a price reduction anyways, then the 5800X3D should be like $450 tops. Ideally, the 5800X gets a $50 price cut and they offer the V-cache version for $400. If the V-cache version is like a $100 add per chiplet, then forget it. It's DOA.

 

[LightningZ71]

I think that the 5800x3d will be a long life product because it is inexorably linked with the production of MilanX products. If they are making server chips TODAY for MilanX, they are going to (very likely) be obligated to have them available for at least three more years. To keep some sort of volume on those chiplets, they're almost going to have to keep making the 5800x3d for a long time to avoid having to store those chiplets for a long time.

As for gaming performance, you may think that I'm grasping at straws. However, I assure you, for most situations, in anything less than a 3080/6800XT system, you're not going to tell the difference between a 5600x and a 5800x3d in the vast majority of games unless you sit there with task manager open the entire time watching the processor usage. Unless you have one of those games that absolutely needs at least 7 hardware cores to give you playable frame rates, it makes no sense to get the 5800x3d unless you want bragging rights.

 

[nicalandia]

I'm thinking if the vanilla 5800X goes for $400, which is probably due for a price reduction anyways, then the 5800X3D should be like $450 tops. Ideally, the 5800X gets a $50 price cut and they offer the V-cache version for $400. If the V-cache version is like a $100 add per chiplet, then forget it. It's DOA.

Dude, premium CPUs command premium prices. The 1800X was launched at $499 and was not even the top dog at gaming. Intel has always charged a pretty penny for top of the line(see 11700K vs 11900K).

The 5800X3D will launch at $500 or more, it's a Halo product for extreme gamers. This not for people worrying about budgets, like many of you do.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Pity there appears to be no 5900X3D which would be a logical replacement for my 3900X. Did AMD give a reason? Was it just cost? Limited supply?

I guess I'll just keep an eye out for a heavy price cut for a 5900X.