Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

[Kedas]

Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"

 

[biostud]

For one, I don't think the motherboard manufacturers / OEMs would be very happy if AMD suddenly stopped producing CPUs.

That would be a very, very, very bad business decision.

I didnt mean to fully stop, just not launch zen3D, but keep making regular zen3 CPUs.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Why even bother with zen3D, when margins and demands for GPUs are at a record high?

If you have limited 7nm wafers and you are guaranteed to sell every GPU you make. Is there any reason to focus on CPUs in this market?

Good question! A few points to keep in mind:

AMD makes more money off Mi100 than a 6900XT
Video cards (like a 6900XT) require more components than a CPU package. Some of those components may be in short supply, reducing how many finished boards OEMs can realistically produce
The margin on EPYC is much better than Ryzen

Maybe AMD has saturated board partners with GPUs (meaning that card supplies are constrained by other components) or maybe they have not. But the market wants as much Milan as it can get right now - it's hard to order them in quantity! And AMD has much better ability to introduce more CPU product to the market, especially given how well N7 and its variants yield at the moment. I think it's pretty obvious that AMD is probably burning through every N7 wafer they can get and selling all of it. And even if they ARE focusing on dGPU production, they're going to make a lot more off enterprise cards than overpriced, gouged gamer cards.

Bottom line, the real money is in EPYC first and Mi100 second (and I only say Mi100 second, because it's slightly more niche and AMD is potentially limited by board component availability). There are reasons why it took AMD forever and a day to meet consumer demand for Vermeer and why they have never met consumer demand for RDNA2 cards.

Zen3D seems like a "slam dunk" since it involves stacking some SRAM onto B2-stepping Vermeer which they're (apparently) already able to produce in some quantity. It does look like they're going to move B2-stepping Vermeer into the market, at least to maintain a presence until they're ready to transition their consumer desktop products to something different (Raphael et al). But yeah I would not expect Zen3D consumer products to be a top priority when, again, they can just keep selling Milan now and for the foreseeable future, even after Genoa hits the streets. How RDNA2 interfaces with all that is anyone's guess. But I think, if you want to better understand why AMD isn't flooding the market with RDNA2, you need to look at the board partners and component supplies, as well as the enterprise cards. AMD may have produced a lot of dGPU chips out there waiting to go into boards that still haven't been built. Or maybe AMD is betting on a mining crash and constraining supplies of consumer cards.

 

[Zucker2k]

I would expect them to slow/stop Vermeer production by now though in favor of Zen 3D/Milan/Milan-X.

And be swapping Zen 3D for all sorts of Vermeer chips? Lol

Edit: I mean when people RMA vermeer chips and there's a shortage.

 

[DrMrLordX]

And be swapping Zen 3D for all sorts of Vermeer chips? Lol

It looks like Zen3D is going to be DiY-only, while OEMs will be getting B2-stepping Vermeer. Just guessing here. Plus with AMD being so cagey lately, when it comes to Zen3D, "I'll believe it when I see it".

 

[Mopetar]

Why even bother with zen3D, when margins and demands for GPUs are at a record high?

If you have limited 7nm wafers and you are guaranteed to sell every GPU you make. Is there any reason to focus on CPUs in this market?

I can understand if AMD skips zen3D and goes directly to zen4.

AMD isn't the one getting the extra profit from GPU prices being high. OEMs, stores, or scalpers are soaking it all up.

AMD makes more selling CPUs than they do GPUs. Zen3D is just a pipe cleaner for future products that will be more widely available.

 

[UsandThem]

It looks like Zen3D is going to be DiY-only, while OEMs will be getting B2-stepping Vermeer. Just guessing here. Plus with AMD being so cagey lately, when it comes to Zen3D, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Yeah, it's tough to say for sure.

AMD's biggest competitor since the launch of their 5000 series has been their production capability. Despite having such a solid product line, they simply couldn't get TSMC to produce enough.

They had to give up some of their desktop market share in order to grow their server market share.

All last year, Intel had product available and got really aggressive in pricing, so honestly if I was building a new PC last year, it would have been an Intel 10th gen system because it was available for purchase and less expensive (especially with Newegg bundles).

It ought to be an interesting 12 months seeing how both Intel and AMD respond in fiscal year 2022.

 

[leoneazzurro]

So.. Zen3D at th end of January (probably launch at CES and availability some weeks later).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1455615520137523209

 

[Makaveli]

So.. Zen3D at th end of January (probably launch at CES and availability some weeks later).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1455615520137523209

This time line works for me since i'm run out of stuff to upgrade on my machine lol. Minus side mounting my GPU, and I picked up my 5800X in Jan of 2021 so I will get a full year of use out of it before I replace it. Just like my 3800X before it.

 

[Timorous]

The ticket to keep enthusiasts happy buying 7nm CPUs was to introduce Zen3D in Q4 2021.

AMD don't care. They want server and OEM contracts because that is far more stable long term and more profitable short term.

ADL is not going to be much faster than zen 3 in gaming at 1080p and at 4k it will be a tie. It is also likely AMD will retain the perf/$ crown for gaming when you factor in platform vs platform.

With the differences between the 12900K vs 12600K in terms of L3 cache and power limits I would not be surprised if the performance delta is greater than the 11900K vs the 11600K which tells me the 12600K will probably match the 11900K and therefore only be a few % faster than the 5600X at 1080p. Given the increased platform cost for ADL it will be hard to justify it IMO.

Bottom line is you are overreacting and getting hysterical over absolutely nothing. The delta is already looking smaller than the zen3d uplift in ADLs best case and if AMD do release a 5600X3D Now! part it is going to be faster than thr 12600K and it also means the vanilla 5600X can easily drop down a bit and provide some competition for the 12400(f) that is likely to be the best bang for buck ADL part you cab buy.

 

[biostud]

Bottom line is you are overreacting and getting hysterical over absolutely nothing. The delta is already looking smaller than the zen3d uplift in ADLs best case and if AMD do release a 5600X3D Now! part it is going to be faster than thr 12600K and it also means the vanilla 5600X can easily drop down a bit and provide some competition for the 12400(f) that is likely to be the best bang for buck ADL part you cab buy.

The initial leaks suggested it was only for 5900X and 5950X

 

[Thibsie]

The initial leaks suggested it was only for 5900X and 5950X

More specifically, higher end. Which means it still is vague IMO.

 

[Timorous]

The initial leaks suggested it was only for 5900X and 5950X

There has been 0 reliable info on this. AMD demoed it on a 5900X and said it was going into production end of year.

They then said it will be available Q1. There has been no talk of SKUs they will make available and that may verywell depend on how competitive ADL is up and down the stack.

The only high end was only ever talked about because people assumed it would be expensive to bond and because throughput may be low. The thing is though some parts are only going to bin well enough to go in at 5600/5800 tier so it is just a question of quantity and demand for higher bins. If AMD can fulfill demand for the higher bins or have enough naturally occurring lower bins there is no reason AMD would not make lower SKUs available.

 

[DrMrLordX]

So.. Zen3D at th end of January (probably launch at CES and availability some weeks later).

Ryzen family update could mean anything, such as B2 stepping. Hydra looks interesting though, even if the name is sinister.

 

[leoneazzurro]

Ryzen family update could mean anything, such as B2 stepping. Hydra looks interesting though, even if the name is sinister.

Well, B2 stepping is supposed to be a transparent update, series 3000 XT was rumored well before the launch. Of course, it may be only the mobile version. But, this matches with other rumors about the start of production of Zen3D packages (which seems to be in the same timeframe as Rembrandt). We'll see.

 

[TheELF]

It would be foolish to release Z3D before all the win11 bugs are sorted out and performance is as optimal as possible. They will get one round of bench upon release and not all reviewers re-bench after a bug fix. You rather delay launch by a month for a product that will be out for over a year.

Well many people argued that windows 11 should not have any performance dips because the ZEN CPUs didn't change at all and worked fine on win 10 so it should work normally on win 11 as well.
Z3D will be different...AMD better make sure a few months before they release them that windows doesn't have any issues with the changed topology.

ADL is not going to be much faster than zen 3 in gaming at 1080p and at 4k it will be a tie. It is also likely AMD will retain the perf/$ crown for gaming when you factor in platform vs platform.

For gaming alone, probably.

But intel does have a decent igpu on top of that that you can use for several things even if it's just to run another monitor at whatever resolution or refresh rate you want without your main card getting in the way.
And AL will have, due to the new scheduler, basically a second CPU in the 4 or 8 laptop cores that you can again use for anything you want, even if it is just as an buffer to keep background apps from messing with your game.

Depending on if you are going to need or use any of these the perf/$ could be very much in favor of intel.

 

[eek2121]

This time line works for me since i'm run out of stuff to upgrade on my machine lol. Minus side mounting my GPU, and I picked up my 5800X in Jan of 2021 so I will get a full year of use out of it before I replace it. Just like my 3800X before it.

What about a top of the line PCIE 4 SSD? 🤣

There has been 0 reliable info on this. AMD demoed it on a 5900X and said it was going into production end of year.

They then said it will be available Q1. There has been no talk of SKUs they will make available and that may verywell depend on how competitive ADL is up and down the stack.

The only high end was only ever talked about because people assumed it would be expensive to bond and because throughput may be low. The thing is though some parts are only going to bin well enough to go in at 5600/5800 tier so it is just a question of quantity and demand for higher bins. If AMD can fulfill demand for the higher bins or have enough naturally occurring lower bins there is no reason AMD would not make lower SKUs available.

AMD clearly indicated it would only be for high end chips. They stated as much. That would appear to indicate the 5900X and 5950X. Possibly the 5800X since ADL-S is going to hurt the 5800X.

That being said, plans can change. They can always change their mind due to the competitive landscape.

I suspect we will also see more SKUs in January. Probably an *700x, a *600 non-X, and maybe one other.

 

[Racan]

Looking at Linus's Alder Lake review, wrt gaming perf. I think Zen 3D will be at least as fast and likely faster on average. Also curious to see what other software will take advantage of that cache.

 

[Makaveli]

What about a top of the line PCIE 4 SSD? 🤣


AMD clearly indicated it would only be for high end chips. They stated as much. That would appear to indicate the 5900X and 5950X. Possibly the 5800X since ADL-S is going to hurt the 5800X.

That being said, plans can change. They can always change their mind due to the competitive landscape.

I suspect we will also see more SKUs in January. Probably an *700x, a *600 non-X, and maybe one other.

I'm fine right now with my Corsair MP600 which is a Gen 1 Pcie 4 drive. The newer versions only provide more sequential speed.

 

[Leeea]

Looking at Linus's Alder Lake review, wrt gaming perf. I think Zen 3D will be at least as fast and likely faster on average. Also curious to see what other software will take advantage of that cache.

Hardware Unboxed has Alder Lake gaming at a 2.5% performance gain on average and up 7% on the 1% lows in Windows 11.

Zen 3d will put the gaming performance back into AMD's camp.

 

[UsandThem]

Hardware Unboxed has Alder Lake gaming at a 2.5% performance gain on average and up 7% on the 1% lows in Windows 11.

Zen 3d will put the gaming performance back into AMD's camp.

Wrong!

As previously declared:

With Zen3D, it would be a tie. Intel would not have regained performance leadership.

So now, AMD is going to be in a hole, performance wise, and if Zen 3D just barely ties it Alder Lake a month or 2 from now, it will not matter, Zen 3 completely lost its relevance.

AMD will have to take a hit on consumer ASPs for a full year as a result, and hope that 5nm will turn the tide.

The goldmine of being able to sell performance leading product on a plentiful TSMC 7nm node, for a full year, was ruined.

AMD needs to take all Zen 3 CPUs, and secretly bury them in the desert somewhere (like Atari did with all of those E.T. game cartridges).

 

[eek2121]

I'm fine right now with my Corsair MP600 which is a Gen 1 Pcie 4 drive. The newer versions only provide more sequential speed.

I wanted to upgrade my PC, but I already have a 5950x and a 3090 (got really lucky and got both for MSRP) so I ended up getting this. I haven’t installed it yet. I figure I could use my PCIE 3.0 SSD as a secondary Steam library drive.

The next day, news of PCIE5 SSDs featuring double the performance leaked. 🤣

Oh well. I need to sit on my hands when
Zen3D comes out.

 

[Leeea]

AMD needs to take all Zen 3 CPUs, and secretly bury them in the desert somewhere (like Atari did with all of those E.T. game cartridges).

Yea, your right, what a complete waste of perfectly good sand!

AMD needs to think about the environment, and stop wasting sand.

 

[Zucker2k]

Hardware Unboxed has Alder Lake gaming at a 2.5% performance gain on average and up 7% on the 1% lows in Windows 11.

Zen 3d will put the gaming performance back into AMD's camp.

Not if he tests for GPU bottleneck like he did in the gaming review. That was kinda hilarious to see, actually. I mean, we all know how a cpu gaming test needs to be done.

 

[xilli_fiberbit]

Hardware Unboxed has Alder Lake gaming at a 2.5% performance gain on average and up 7% on the 1% lows in Windows 11.

Zen 3d will put the gaming performance back into AMD's camp.

On the tests comparaing DDR4 to DDR5, there are insteresting gains more in MT by using DDR5.

 

[Makaveli]

I wanted to upgrade my PC, but I already have a 5950x and a 3090 (got really lucky and got both for MSRP) so I ended up getting this. I haven’t installed it yet. I figure I could use my PCIE 3.0 SSD as a secondary Steam library drive.

The next day, news of PCIE5 SSDs featuring double the performance leaked. 🤣

Oh well. I need to sit on my hands when
Zen3D comes out.

Your system is very high end and that is a great drive you will be fine for many years. PCIe5 right now is useless on consumer so you not missing much.