51 unaccounted for after deadly high-rise collapse in Florida

[SKORPI0]

27 dead, 118 still missing.

 

[Brainonska511]

I get annoyed when traffic in my own city gets bad, I can't even imagine a place like NYC or even Toronto. Screw that noise. If I was forced to live in such a city I'd try to get by without a car. At least one good thing about big cities though is they tend to be a bit more walk friendly, and the transit system tends to be really good too. In my city everything is spread out more so you practically need a car to get anywhere. Land wise my city is actually 7th largest in Canada according to a random list I found. That's probably part of why our taxes are so high, there's just so many roads and infrastructure to maintain per capita.

Traffic is bad because you are the traffic. If you have infill, mixed-used neighborhoods, more people will turn to walking or biking, and public transit can be more efficient (you don't even need NYC density here for this to happen). There may still be people that will drive, but the main idea is to just get people out of their personal automobiles. Unfortunately, much of the US (and I guess Canada) loves their suburban sprawl.

When I lived in NYC and Chicago, I never dreamed of owning a car. The public transit systems were pretty good, and could reliably get me to where I wanted to go, if I didn't want to walk or bike.

 

[jpiniero]

Suing the board members themsleves will be cathartic I guess but ultimately most likely fruitless.

At the very least I'd expect the board members to be included in any wrongful death suits. Same with the city building inspector (who btw is going to lose his job and his license too)

 

[Murloc]

Traffic is bad because you are the traffic. If you have infill, mixed-used neighborhoods, more people will turn to walking or biking, and public transit can be more efficient (you don't even need NYC density here for this to happen). There may still be people that will drive, but the main idea is to just get people out of their personal automobiles. Unfortunately, much of the US (and I guess Canada) loves their suburban sprawl.

When I lived in NYC and Chicago, I never dreamed of owning a car. The public transit systems were pretty good, and could reliably get me to where I wanted to go, if I didn't want to walk or bike.

segregation of traffic and public transport is still pretty critical, buses are useless if they're stuck in the same traffic as the cars.

 

[spacejamz]

When I lived in NYC and Chicago, I never dreamed of owning a car. The public transit systems were pretty good, and could reliably get me to where I wanted to go, if I didn't want to walk or bike.

How were your trips to the grocery store done? I couldn't imagine doing this without a car. Even if you just have 4 or 5 plastic bags of stuff, do you have to lug from the store, to the train station, then on the train, and then walk home with them? Even light weight bulky stuff (paper towels, toilet paper, laundry deterent, etc) would seem like a complete PITA...

 

[Brainonska511]

How were your trips to the grocery store done? I couldn't imagine doing this without a car. Even if you just have 4 or 5 plastic bags of stuff, do you have to lug from the store, to the train station, then on the train, and then walk home with them? Even light weight bulky stuff (paper towels, toilet paper, laundry deterent, etc) would seem like a complete PITA...

In Chicago, I used my bike with a milk crate and a backpack to go the grocery store <10 minutes away by bike. The milk crate fit 2 paper bags, and backpack handled everything else. Could easily get enough for a week+ with a single trip.

In NYC, there was a grocery store adjacent to the subway stop I used coming home, so I tended to just make more small trips - maybe stop by twice a week instead of doing a single trip per week. The walk was <10 minutes. For bulky items, like TP or towels, I'd pick those up on a separate day on my way home - usually stopping at the nearby Walgreens or Rite Aid to pick up the loss leader of the week. Not really a big inconvenience. Never had to deal with laundry detergent though - my apartment didn't have a washer, so I pretty much just paid for drop-off laundry. Not substantially more expensive than doing it myself in a laundromat, but hugely convenient. There was also a bus that ran up my block, so sometimes I could catch that as well if I had a bunch of items to carry.

When you don't have a car, and you live in a more transit-oriented place, where things are walkable, you think about all these tasks quite differently. No need to go on a single grocery trip per week when you walk past the store every day.

 

[Captante]

How were your trips to the grocery store done?

Polder Superlight Aluminum Shopping Cart ~ $49.99


*(NOT rocket-surgery)

 

[Red Squirrel]

How were your trips to the grocery store done? I couldn't imagine doing this without a car. Even if you just have 4 or 5 plastic bags of stuff, do you have to lug from the store, to the train station, then on the train, and then walk home with them? Even light weight bulky stuff (paper towels, toilet paper, laundry deterent, etc) would seem like a complete PITA...

Or home depot runs. Imagine carrying a couple 2x6's in the bus lmao. I guess with the price of lumber now days you'd probably hire Brinks for that anyway.

 

[K1052]

Or home depot runs. Imagine carrying a couple 2x6's in the bus lmao. I guess with the price of lumber now days you'd probably hire Brinks for that anyway.

Having lived in apartments and condos for many years the number of times I've needed lumber is precisely zero.

Hardware needs are usually more stuff like door parts or maybe a cabinet handle or something.

 

[Brainonska511]

Or home depot runs. Imagine carrying a couple 2x6's in the bus lmao. I guess with the price of lumber now days you'd probably hire Brinks for that anyway.

If only places like that delivered.... Oh wait, they do. But granted, the number of times I needed something bully like lumber was 0.

 

[pmv]

Polder Superlight Aluminum Shopping Cart ~ $49.99


*(NOT rocket-surgery)

I use a rucksack, myself.

Rarely is there any need to drive most journeys in (sane) major cities. Several times have had the experience of going on foot to the same place as someone who insisted on driving, then had to wait for them when I got there, while they found a place to park (that ended up being further away from the destination than the place we started from).

 

[pmv]

Public transport is usually crap, mind you. In my experience, buses are almost always slower than walking, becuase of all the car traffic clogging the roads.

The function of public transport in cities, to my mind, is not for using every day, rather that it's a last-resort emergency option to avoid getting stranded somewhere. The fact that it exists means you can do without a car, and in practice walk or cycle most places, always knowing you can resort to a bus (or, better, train) if you get really stuck due to awful weather or being exhausted or drunk or whatever.

 

[sdifox]

Public transport is usually crap, mind you. In my experience, buses are almost always slower than walking, becuase of all the car traffic clogging the roads.

The function of public transport in cities, to my mind, is not for using every day, rather that it's a last-resort emergency option to avoid getting stranded somewhere. The fact that it exists means you can do without a car, and in practice walk or cycle most places, always knowing you can resort to a bus (or, better, train) if you get really stuck due to awful weather or being exhausted or drunk or whatever.

Err whut? Big cities would die without public transit. I take commuter train into downtown Toronto. No way am I dealing with driving hell.

Working from home is best though.

 

[Red Squirrel]

If only places like that delivered.... Oh wait, they do. But granted, the number of times I needed something bully like lumber was 0.

Usually $50 for delivery, not going to pay that for a small order. For large orders that cost like $1000+ sure, but sometimes you just need a small amount of lumber or other supplies then it's not worth paying delivery.

Guess some of you never build anything or work with your hands?

With prices of lumber lately I have not bought any in a while though. Try to make due with what I already have around the house. I was excited when I realized I had 10 full 2x4s in my basement the other day, that's like $100 of lumber lol.

If these prices keep up I will need to look at building a mini saw mill. Though there's lot of people that have already done it so can probably find rough cut lumber for reasonable prices already if I look around.

 

[Brainonska511]

Usually $50 for delivery, not going to pay that for a small order. For large orders that cost like $1000+ sure, but sometimes you just need a small amount of lumber or other supplies then it's not worth paying delivery.

I honestly don't think that's a serious concern for people living a car free lifestyle. And if it was a concern and delivery was just too much, you can always rent a vehicle or use a rideshare. Zipcars, rental vehicles, Uber/Lyft are all options.

Also, not sure you've seen the routine out-of-pocket costs of owning a car. You can easily save $1000/year, just on insurance, by not owning one.

Guess some of you never build anything or work with your hands?

Different people like different things. I like building my computers; I don't really want to build my furniture. And I'm certainly not going to be renovating apartments I don't own.

 

[Murloc]

Usually $50 for delivery, not going to pay that for a small order. For large orders that cost like $1000+ sure, but sometimes you just need a small amount of lumber or other supplies then it's not worth paying delivery.

Guess some of you never build anything or work with your hands?

With prices of lumber lately I have not bought any in a while though. Try to make due with what I already have around the house. I was excited when I realized I had 10 full 2x4s in my basement the other day, that's like $100 of lumber lol.

If these prices keep up I will need to look at building a mini saw mill. Though there's lot of people that have already done it so can probably find rough cut lumber for reasonable prices already if I look around.

in a city where people live in apartments you don't even have the space to put large items.

Besides, there are car share schemes to cover the needs of carless people in most locations. Or you can just use a 2-wheeled trolley and some bungee cords.

People who do lots of handwork often have a car anyway.

 

[jpiniero]

There's a lot of people in NYC whose only activity at home is sleeping. The lockdown must have been a giant PITA to them. Even eating, just eat out.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah can't imagine that kind of lifestyle myself only having a tiny apartment in a high rise with no yard or anything. Like living in a hotel and not really having a place that is truly yours. To me my home is where I enjoy life, hobbies and overall live. I always have projects and other stuff going on to keep me busy. I'm not buying lumber much these days though because tabarnak those prices are insane. Was going to continue on my deck this year but that can wait. Have other landscaping work to do anyway.

 

[Torn Mind]

Public transport is usually crap, mind you. In my experience, buses are almost always slower than walking, becuase of all the car traffic clogging the roads.

The function of public transport in cities, to my mind, is not for using every day, rather that it's a last-resort emergency option to avoid getting stranded somewhere. The fact that it exists means you can do without a car, and in practice walk or cycle most places, always knowing you can resort to a bus (or, better, train) if you get really stuck due to awful weather or being exhausted or drunk or whatever.

Where I'm at, public transport follows the model of "towards the center". Meaning in towards Washington D.C. For a person who works in the city and lives in a location in which they can walk or take a single route to the metro station, the public transport does suffice. One county has basically one major artery or path of flow, which is the I-270 corridor. The best places for folks who have to live a carless lifestyle, which are usually low income people renting a place, are on bus routes that travel down the major highway of MD-355 or directly to the Metro station of Shady Grove. Thus, the bus routes of 55 and 46 are the ones with the most frequent service. The further away from this central artery one goes, the more the houses because large batches of townhomes and single-family detached that were developed on what was formerly farms. Certain areas on the true periphery of "civilization", like Damascus, MD and Poolesville, MD, are served by one lone bus on the weekdays only.

The addition of population is necessary for the bus routes to have increases in service in such places, and of course I-270 is a stuffed road during normal non-pandemic times, and why the DC area has such bad traffic in general.

 

[pmv]

Err whut? Big cities would die without public transit. I take commuter train into downtown Toronto. No way am I dealing with driving hell.

Working from home is best though.

Not saying they don't need public transport, because without it the roads would be even more congested with private vehicles, but it's just horrible to actually use, especially in rush-hour. I took up cycling as a faster alternative to walking, as previously I walked everywhere becuase

(a) the buses were just terrible in terms of reliability. Most journeys would need multiple bus changes, and each one you'd have to wait an eternity for because they couldn't stick to timetable due to getting stuck in traffic, then when you were on one they'd crawl along at 2mph stuck in those endless traffic jams. Not helped by the way narrow roads are completely clogged up with parked cars, due to the absurd notion that everyone should be able to store their car on the public road just outside their home.

(b) the tube/underground was quicker, but it only serves part of the city, and using it in rush hour (which I did for many years) is/was like descending into hell. The overcrowding is so bad at times that they actively plead with people to find a different way to get to work rather than use it.

(c) the non-tube trains, i.e. normal rail, is less overcrowded and unpleasant, but it's also very unreliable and limited in what areas it covers.

People actually claim public transport is 'good' in London, compared to much of the rest of the country, but it's not good, its always been awful, for as long as I remember. And it's largely because of all the private cars taking up all the throughfare space. It's just that the rest of the country got even worse becuase they didn't put up any sort of fight against privatisation and deregulation.


The private automobile is the biggest single obstacle to personal mobility ever invented. Wherever you want to go, by whatever means, there will be cars in the way.

Edit, anyway, way-off-topic, on what's an extremely tragic story. Sorry about that.

 

[MrSquished]

There's a lot of people in NYC whose only activity at home is sleeping. The lockdown must have been a giant PITA to them. Even eating, just eat out.

This is defininitely characteristic of NYC living, only because the mass transit, as flawed as it is, is light years beyond any other city in the country, ditto with cycling in some parts, and the sheer density, shit to do everywhere.

A lot of people when starting out in NYC use their small apartment as just a place to crash and maybe make small dishes.

Multiple people I've spoken to in NYC likened the city as their living room. There is literally so much there in three dimensional land, it just works for them.

A person I met recently said that they lived their first years in the city in 200 SQ feet. But NYC was their living room. So it was part of just experiencing my. Now she is older, so more about a bigger place, less going out

 

[Spacehead]

People actually claim public transport is 'good' in London, compared to much of the rest of the country, but it's not good, its always been awful, for as long as I remember. And it's largely because of all the private cars taking up all the throughfare space. It's just that the rest of the country got even worse becuase they didn't put up any sort of fight against privatisation and deregulation.

Edit, anyway, way-off-topic, on what's an extremely tragic story. Sorry about that.

Didn't they try removing some of the cars in London via a pass or toll getting into the city? Or was that just talk? If they did it sounds like it didn't help much.

Yes, this thread is going way off topic, sorry about that.

 

[sdifox]

Didn't they try removing some of the cars in London via a pass or toll getting into the city? Or was that just talk? If they did it sounds like it didn't help much.

Yes, this thread is going way off topic, sorry about that.

You have to pay congestion fee to drive in London.

 

[K1052]

Didn't they try removing some of the cars in London via a pass or toll getting into the city? Or was that just talk? If they did it sounds like it didn't help much.

Yes, this thread is going way off topic, sorry about that.

The London congestion and ultra low emission zone has been realtively effective.

 

[MrSquished]

The London congestion and ultra low emission zone has been realtively effective.

London was an inspiration, and congestion pricing is coming here too and all the money goes to transit projects, as it should. Excited to see how it works.