5000 troops to Colombia? w/ poll

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will trump start a war in South America?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • No

    Votes: 14 58.3%

  • Total voters
    24
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
Intentional and more clever than I would expect from John Bolton. He's usually more direct. I wonder if it was his idea to use the notepad?

As to the topic of the poll, I don't think Trump will pursue a military adventure in Venezuela. Despite his chest-thumping, Trump is wary of military action. There is no upside for the U.S. and Trump hasn't figured out how make money off of war yet.

I think this "4D Chess" is just that conservatives have become a mixture of hateful and stupid, that you can't tell if they're doing something because they're stupid or because they're assholes.

I don't think Turmp is (wary of military action, he's made overtures about it with Venezuela multiple times, mostly because he's a bully and sees an opportunity where he thinks he can go bully them easily; meanwhile he's been told off of Syria by Putin, and I think they finally made it clear to him that military action against North Korea was not really a viable plan). Although he maybe should be these days, since him and the military leadership are not reading the same book let alone on the same page. And that might soon lead to them being in complete different libraries (with Turmp using the prison one, and our government adding some new info to the Library of Congress about dealing with traitorous administrations).

Which is insane, since war is about the easiest money making scheme there is (especially if you can go do war somewhere else that won't greatly affect you - like say, you don't have much real trade with a country - while fleecing the public to fund your war machine at home, it actually is viable; even better if you can turn it into a political weapon where you get people to keep voting for you just so you'll keep the arms money rolling in and providing jobs). Reagan pretty much enshrined it as a tentpole of the GOP. Not that Democrats have done much if anything to do something meaningful about it (and plenty of them I believe have partaken in the pork barrel politicing aspect of it).
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
Imperialism continues to hollow out this country's infrastructure funding, putting massive amounts of money into weapons manufacturers pockets, and by extension, politicians who continue to vote for Imperialism funding.

As long as Americans continue deluding themselves that we're not an Empire, this will continue.

Its not even imperialism (although I don't doubt Turmp would try to make it that way...). We really didn't gain jack shit from Iraq or Afghanistan (that we weren't getting before). And it wasn't until decades later that we returned to take advantage of the cheap labor for manufacturing in Vietnam (but that was really in place before we got there, and it was private corporations that did that and not our government; it is true imperialism was a cause of the Vietnam situation, but that was France, who's brutal treatment led to them trying to find external help, and we became concerned over Soviet and Communist China turning it into a communist state; our imperialism in the 20th century, especially the latter part was generally fairly superficial and us just wanting to prevent communism from spreading than us wanting what others had). And while we have actually done well via Japan (which our imperialism there was due to them fucking with us and being shitty so we wanted to prevent them from returning to form) and South Korea, we've helped them probably more than they helped us in that regard. And even though we aren't always popular there, we stayed because they wanted us to, not because of imperialistic wants.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
No, Trump will not go against Putin's wishes.

Damn, forgot there was a report that Putin not wanting the US to mess with the situation. I think that's mostly fluff though (doubt he actually cares, he just wants to highlight US hypocrisy). Plus wouldn't surprise me if they were wanting some joint ops relief effort so they can go "see we're working together for good!" and so Russia can act humanitarian after it collapses.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
101,161
18,199
126
So John Clark and Domingo Chavez are going to Colombia to buy some coffee?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,245
136
Damn, forgot there was a report that Putin not wanting the US to mess with the situation. I think that's mostly fluff though (doubt he actually cares, he just wants to highlight US hypocrisy). Plus wouldn't surprise me if they were wanting some joint ops relief effort so they can go "see we're working together for good!" and so Russia can act humanitarian after it collapses.

No, Putin is probably quite serious about not wanting the US to intervene in Venezuela. We know he must be serious because it's about money.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/25/6886...cs-cheer-u-s-support-for-venezuelas-oppositio

Key passage:

The Kremlin is deeply invested in the survival of Maduro's regime, having sunk both political and financial capital into Venezuela. Russia has propped up the country's rulers with at least $17 billion in loans and credit lines since 2006, often taking oil assets in return, according to an investigation by Reuters.

Like I said, my prediction is Trump will rattle the saber but do nothing to defy Putin.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,537
9,972
136
The US invading wouldn't surprise me.

The US pledging support so the opposition party feels comfortable enough to come out in force... Then Trump pulling the rug out from underneath them both undermining trust in the US and reinforcing the Russian backed Maduro Govt followed by a crazed resignation letter from Bolton also wouldn't surprise me.

So basically... Nothing would surprise me.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
Which is not the case. The end.

Is your claim that the 2018 election was not rigged?

There are US backed governments throughout Latin America, and without looking, I doubt all of them had totally fair elections. An obvious example is Bolsonaro in Brazil, and no, I don't support a coup in Brazil. So there goes that theory.

So your claim is that I’m wrong while admitting you have done no research into if I’m wrong.

There is no evidence that the election in Brazil was fraudulent, unlike the obvious evidence that the election and coup in Venezuela was.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Is your claim that the 2018 election was not rigged?

My claim is that the office has not been "left vacant". Article 233 has nothing to do with elections.

So your claim is that I’m wrong while admitting you have done no research into if I’m wrong.

There is no evidence that the election in Brazil was fraudulent, unlike the obvious evidence that the election and coup in Venezuela was.

Brazil jailed their popular president on phony corruption charges, that's far worse than anything Maduro did. According to you it's unlikely that I would oppose attempts to remove US-backed Bolsonaro, but I do oppose such attempts. So yes, I disagree.
 

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,281
3,085
136
Ok...who in the hell needs to write down something as basic as "5000 troops to Columbia" without any other detail? Putting aside the fact that Bolton knows full well cameras are everywhere, and he's facing the notepad outward. Of course this is intentional.

As far as actually sending troops...if it's for humanitarian purposes (thousands/millions will be coming over to Columbia) AND is part of something multi-national--ideally the UN, though Russia and China would veto such a mission--then so be it. More likely it would be to counter Russian influence in Venezuela, so they wouldn't want other countries on hand to witness anything.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
My claim is that the office has not been "left vacant". Article 233 has nothing to do with elections.

So if I just declare myself president of Venezuela then the office isn't vacant? If someone gets into office by rigging the election that office is not validly filled.

Do you agree Maduro rigged the election, yes or no?

Brazil jailed their popular president on phony corruption charges, that's far worse than anything Maduro did. According to you it's unlikely that I would oppose attempts to remove US-backed Bolsonaro, but I do oppose such attempts. So yes, I disagree.

I think you're talking about Lula da Silva, who was not Brazil's president when jailed. As for it being far worse than anything Maduro did, Maduro literally has already jailed his opposition on several occasions.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
So if I just declare myself president of Venezuela then the office isn't vacant? If someone gets into office by rigging the election that office is not validly filled.

Do you agree Maduro rigged the election, yes or no?

I don't think that Venezuela's elections are any more unfair or rigged than our own.

I think you're talking about Lula da Silva, who was not Brazil's president when jailed. As for it being far worse than anything Maduro did, Maduro literally has already jailed his opposition on several occasions.

Is an election where your primary opponent is jailed a rigged election?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
I don't think that Venezuela's elections are any more unfair or rigged than our own.

The preposterousness of your whataboutism aside, you didn’t answer my question.

Was the 2018 Venezuelan presidential election rigged, yes or no?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
The preposterousness of your whataboutism aside, you didn’t answer my question.

Was the 2018 Venezuelan presidential election rigged, yes or no?

No, I'm not answering it, because it's a preposterous question. Do we have gerrymandering here? Do we have registration purges? Do we have unlimited corporate funding? Do we have voter ID laws, voter intimidation, closure of polling locations, and all of it deliberately done to swing the results of elections? Have two of our last three presidents been elected with a minority of the popular vote?

Yet no one in a position of authority is suggesting that any American election results should be thrown out. And if they did, do you think other countries would be justified in seizing American assets, imposing sanctions, or recognizing someone else as president?

According to Wikipedia, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, and Turkey all recognized the election result.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
No, I'm not answering it, because it's a preposterous question. Do we have gerrymandering here? Do we have registration purges? Do we have unlimited corporate funding? Do we have voter ID laws, voter intimidation, closure of polling locations, and all of it deliberately done to swing the results of elections? Have two of our last three presidents been elected with a minority of the popular vote?

Yet no one in a position of authority is suggesting that any American election results should be thrown out. And if they did, do you think other countries would be justified in seizing American assets, imposing sanctions, or recognizing someone else as president?

Asking if the election was legitimate is absurd? Are you fucking kidding me.

According to Wikipedia, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, and Turkey all recognized the election result.

Did you purposefully list a bunch of countries without free elections or ones that also rigged their elections? Hahaha.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,851
16,114
136
No, I'm not answering it, because it's a preposterous question. Do we have gerrymandering here? Do we have registration purges? Do we have unlimited corporate funding? Do we have voter ID laws, voter intimidation, closure of polling locations, and all of it deliberately done to swing the results of elections? Have two of our last three presidents been elected with a minority of the popular vote?

Yet no one in a position of authority is suggesting that any American election results should be thrown out. And if they did, do you think other countries would be justified in seizing American assets, imposing sanctions, or recognizing someone else as president?

According to Wikipedia, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, and Turkey all recognized the election result.

Of course they do.... out of fear that their own regime be next....
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,692
15,283
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Did you purposefully list a bunch of countries without free elections or ones that also rigged their elections? Hahaha.
Obviously, China, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, and Turkey are paragons of legitimate, elected goverment.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Asking if the election was legitimate is absurd? Are you fucking kidding me.

Did you purposefully list a bunch of countries without free elections or ones that also rigged their elections? Hahaha.

Yes, it's absurd, it's a leading question with absurd premise that if Venezuela's elections aren't spotless then Maduro is illegitimate and has no more legitimate claim to power than someone that simply announces themselves president.

What is wrong with the Iranian, Russian, Chinese, or Turkish elections?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,466
10,744
136
Ok...who in the hell needs to write down something as basic as "5000 troops to Columbia" without any other detail? Putting aside the fact that Bolton knows full well cameras are everywhere, and he's facing the notepad outward. Of course this is intentional.

Do not underestimate the age of these men.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
136
Yes, it's absurd, it's a leading question with absurd premise that if Venezuela's elections aren't spotless then Maduro is illegitimate and has no more legitimate claim to power than someone that simply announces themselves president.

No, it’s a simple question that you won’t answer because you know it destroys your position.

Was the election rigged, yes or no?

What is wrong with the Iranian, Russian, Chinese, or Turkish elections?

Is this a joke.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I don't understand why the Trump Admin is Hell bent on making us the bad guy in Venezuela. Sanctions are basically kicking them when they're down. We need to stand back & let them sort it out themselves regardless of what Big Oil wants.

There's no way we'll invade, either, so 5000 troops to Colombia is just a mind game.