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500 Palestinian deaths in the last 12 days?

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As long as one side demonizes the others with lies such as "the Mossad was behind the acts of 9/11" there will be no movement towards peace.

Check what I write and tell me if I engage in that type of fabrication. I don't like those that do because they are a part of the problem.



<< Did you know if you are not a Muslim living in a Muslim country that you are forced to pay a special tax? >>

Etech, I respect you as much as anybody on this forum but I have to ask "WTF does that have to do with the Tea in China?"

Not a damn thing, just in a pissy mood after changing a battery in my wife's car in an Autozone parking lot. Random facts tend to spurt out on those occasions.
 
Sort of like this..

NEWS FLASH: Red Heifer Born in Israel!

Updated April 8th, 2002
It can now be revealed that less than one month ago, a red heifer was born in Israel. After the heifer's owner contacted the Temple Institute, on Friday, April 5th, 2002, Rabbi Menachem Makover and Rabbi Chaim Richman traveled to the farm where the heifer is located, to inspect and validate her status. The rabbis found her to be kosher and were satisfied that this heifer could indeed be a candidate to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers, chapter 19. This is an important development towards the rebuilding of the Holy Temple.

Red-Heifer Days
Could this little calf born last month in Israel bring about Armageddon? The concept would have struck many people as absurd the last time such a calf was born, in 1997, and probably makes most readers laugh today. Big mistake: Never underestimate the power of religious faith to shape events, especially in the Holy Land. Especially right now.

Our eschatological heifer story begins on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, where tens of millions of Jews, Muslims, and Christians believe the central events of each tradition's Last Days will play out. The site, the Biblical Mount Moriah, was the site of the Hebrews' First Temple, destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC, and the Second Temple, which the Romans leveled in 70 AD. Muslims, believing the site to be the place from which the Prophet Mohammed ascended into Heaven atop a steed, began in 685 to build the Noble Sanctuary, a 35-acre site in Jerusalem's walled Old City, containing the Dome of the Rock shrine and the al Aqsa mosque.
.....
"It really does play into the longstanding scenario that dispensationalists have believed would happen in the End: a growing disdain for Israel, Israel's isolation from the rest of the world, and mounting pressure on the Jewish state," Weber says. "This all leads up to the emergence of an Antichrist, who will step up and bring peace to the situation, and Israel and the world will welcome him as a solution to an apparently unsolvable problem."

The unshakable belief in particular prophetic visions ? Jewish, Christian, or Islamic ? makes the art of political compromise impossible when it comes to Jerusalem. Says Weber: "There's no way to negotiate these ideas. If you believe that this is in the prophetic cards, that this is history before it happens, that this is how God is going to manipulate events to bring about the final phase of human history, then you cannot negotiate land for peace, or anything else."
....
"
 
Innocent civilians?

The 'engineer'

>Omar sits restlessly on his chair in the safe-house. He is an "engineer" from Jenin refugee camp: one of the revered bomb-makers from the City of the Bombers. To the Israelis he is the most lethal, and wanted, of terrorists. The poison from the Cobra's head.
We meet late last Thursday, hours after he escaped from the camp as Israeli soldiers took control of the area. We are still close enough to Jenin that we can see the constant stream of illumination flares, three launched by the army at a time, that light up the soldiers' dark work in the city below.

But Omar will not be staying here long. He is going to ground deeper in the West Bank before regrouping with his comrades from Jenin.

There may not be too many. Even according to Israeli army sources, at least a hundred fighters were killed and hundreds more wounded and captured during the eight days of savage fighting.

Omar will not give his name or age. He is slim, in his mid-20s, with a closely cropped beard. He is a member of Islamic Jihad, but says in Jenin all the factions were loyal to only one cause: liberation or death.

Visible beneath a blue bomber jacket is the tightly bandaged stump of his right arm, the end of which he rubs distractedly.

How did he lose it? During the previous invasion of Jenin by the Israeli army several weeks ago, he says. He was hiding with only his arm visible as he tried to throw a 'kwa' -- a home-made pipe bomb -- at a tank. Shrapnel from a shell severed it, he says.

But as a bomb-maker, one of the most highly respected positions in the Palestinian resistance, he could equally have lost the arm in less glorious circumstances: in one of the explosions that are a professional hazard of his job.

Omar admits he is one of only a few dozen fighters not to emerge either dead or in plastic handcuffs from the fiercest battle waged by the Palestinians during the Israeli army's invasion of the West Bank.

Of his group of 30 gunmen, only four escaped from the camp on Wednesday, after the Palestinian arsenal ran dry. Most of the others were shot dead.

"Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared," he says. "We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month."

Omar and other "engineers" made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations.

"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.

"We cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four metres apart throughout the houses -- in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas."

The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside rubbish bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men.

Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery.

According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan.

"We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. "If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend."

And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers?

"They were lured there," he says. "We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving." The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby- trapped area.

"When the senior officers realised what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire.

"Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us."

On Wednesday, after the fighters ran out of ammunition, he says, armoured vehicles roamed the streets calling out to them in Arabic: "You are finished and can't win against us. We are more powerful than you. Surrender."

He saw one fighter who went down to the street with his hands in the air shot dead by snipers. He chose to flee the camp, although he will not say how.

Using his left arm, Omar shot a revolver during the gun battles.

With a new intensity on his face, he leans forward to ask a question. Do I think the doctors will be able to give him a strong new artificial arm with fingers he can operate. I don't know, I say. Why?

"Because I want to be able to hold a heavy rifle again. That way I can kill more Israeli soldiers. It's that or become a suicide bomber."

<<
 
Come now, we can't place the blame entirely at Israel's feet. In all these years Yassir Arafat has failed to eliminate the refugee camps. Why?

Also, if countries like Egypt and Jordon would pony up and offer some land to the Palestinians it would solve alot of these problems. But of course, the Arab gov'ts care nothing for the fate of the Palestinians. In fact, by stirring up anti-Jewish, pro-Palestinian rhetoric it turns the radicals away from the terrible social injustices in their own country. It's ludicrous when Prince Abdulla was being interviewed on This Week on ABC and calling for rights for the Palestinians when he himself has refugee camps and cracks down on militants even harder than the Israelli's do. Bloody Tuesday anyone?
 
Bombs Kill at Least 14 in Philippines

"MANILA, Philippines (AP) - A bomb killed at least 14 people outside a busy department store in the southern Philippines on Sunday, an hour after a man called in a warning in the name of a Muslim extremist group, officials said.

Two other bombs went off in quick succession near a radio station and a bus terminal in General Santos, a largely Christian city of 800,000 people in a region where Muslim fundamentalists have been seeking an independent homeland. The series of blasts wounded at least 45 people. The dead included four children."

That is why the terrorist bombers must not be allowed to achieve their goals. It will be like a cancer. If you let one group succeed in using terrorist tactics then it will legitimize the tactic and it will spread and be seen as just another political tool.
 


<< That's an interesting unbiased website you linked to (it prompted me to download Arabic text), so I'm sure the body count is unbiased too.
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>>



Check out the forums. Who needs AT?

Edit:
This is scary.... Very scary
 


<< Check out the forums. Who needs AT? >>

[Pure emotion]Tough talk for weak pukes. Without the Soviets to back them up they have to resort to cowardly acts of terrorism. Of course when they had the Soviets backing them up the Israeli's kicked them to the curb like little buggering bitches. If they had cajones they'd declare war on us. Of course we'd annihlate them like the vermin they are without as much as a tear shed.[/Pure emotion]

Now that I got that out of the way, to group all Arabs by what "Edited for PC Purposes" has to say would be wrong. Just like we have extremists like MrPaltroll here they have them in the Islamic world. Their minds are poisoned by religious brainwashing so much so that they won't be happy until everyone meets their socalled "Maker" .
 
Red, I may agree with you on your sentiments about MrPalco but I don't remember even him advocating violence as a solution.

Did I miss that post of his?


Chaotic42
For a peaceful and tolerant religion the Muslims do seem to be involved in most of the hotspots around the world. Does anyone have any idea on why that is?
 


<< I'm aware of the 14 Israeli soldiers that were killed as well as the recent suicide bus bombing killing 8.
So that puts Palestine at 22 kills
vs Israel's 500/200 kills.


Haven't they acheived enough retribution to pull out by now?

link
>>


I believe something was said of this in this thread...

And I do believe we will see no more replies to this topic 🙂
 
adding insult to injury😉

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020084577795">Palestinians adding bodies from cemetery to Jenin mass grave
</a>
 
Isn't that the same paper who reported an Israeli Plane being shot down by PLO crashing into a cemetary? It reported 154 bodies recoverd from the wreakage of the Piper Cub.
rolleye.gif
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I seriously doubt that any Devout Islamic Follower would allow their relatives graves to be disturbed for the sake of a Political purpose (or any purpose).
 
There is a difference between innocent Israelis dying and innocent Palestinians dying. You get the cookie if you can tell me why. Wait, I'll save you the trouble of thinking too hard. Innocent Israelis are the intended target. Innocent Palestinians are not the intended target. That's it.

EXACTLY.
 


<< There is a difference between innocent Israelis dying and innocent Palestinians dying. You get the cookie if you can tell me why. Wait, I'll save you the trouble of thinking too hard. Innocent Israelis are the intended target. Innocent Palestinians are not the intended target. That's it.
>>

That makes it ok then. I was wondering about that.
 


<< That makes it ok then. I was wondering about that. >>



I don't think that the implication was that inadvertant civilian deaths as the result of a legitimate military operation is "OK". I'm pretty sure that the point was that both scenerios are not morally equivalent to each other.

Because middle eastern terrorists choose to operate from within civilian population centers, do not have "military bases", and do not distinguish themselves seperate from civilians via uniform, IMHO they are taking these civilians "hostage" for their own ends.......

I dunno, but if I were a civilian, say in Jenin, I wouldn't be too happy about some "freedom fighters" living next door to me whom try to recruit my children into martyrdom for their cause or use them as shields.........but that's just me, evidently I have a backbone and love my family......

 


<< I don't think that the implication was that inadvertant civilian deaths as the result of a legitimate military operation is "OK". I'm pretty sure that the point was that both scenerios are not morally equivalent to each other. >>

Shh!! this is ATOT, intelligent logic isn't allowed.
 
If everyone will notice that the article said Palestinian officials..It did not mention anybody by name because that person would refute the claim

It proves nothing because a third party hasn't investigated yet. You can get rid of alot of bodies in two weeks time. Hell, Hoffa would have a hay day if he were given two weeks to dispose of any incriminating evidence.

What does Mr Arafat or a leader say?

An American official said yesterday that the lottery was rigged and Mr Nitemare should be awarded 50 million dollars in pain and suffering. Prove me wrong
 
Hello Nitemare. Please give me the specific "evidence" that they used in determining how many "hundreds" they originally claimed perished there. Oh, I see, since someone "specific" quoted the estimate, you'll just believe him........
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<< An American official said yesterday that the lottery was rigged and Mr Nitemare should be awarded 50 million dollars in pain and suffering. Prove me wrong >>



Which lottery? I can prove you wrong quite easily.........

 
Do I come off as a dweeby n00b if I say "owned"?

Evidently Nitemare, you are so afraid of the truth that you didn't bother to even read the article which most certainly does name a specific Palestinian "offical"......:



<< The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office. >>





 


<< Hello Nitemare. Please give me the name of the specific "Palestinian official" whom originally claimed that a massacre at Jenin took place. I would also like to examine the specific "evidence" that they used in determining how many "hundreds" they originally claimed perished there.



<< An American official said yesterday that the lottery was rigged and Mr Nitemare should be awarded 50 million dollars in pain and suffering. Prove me wrong >>



Which lottery? I can prove you wrong quite easily.........
>>



Saeb Erakat
Abed Rabbo

among others

Jenin massacre on google

Jews say this, Palestine says this. What if the Allied would have given the Axis 2 weeks to clean up their concentration camps? I would imagine the death toll would be significantly lower than it was

My arguement by the lottery was to show you the vague things are hard to disprove. Apparently it was lost on you...Pick any lottery, it doesn't matter because you don't know who the offical who said it was...for that matter, I'm American and can argue that I'm officially an American...therefore I am am an American official...I say it's rigged so give me my money already.

I would very much like to believe that there was no massacre in Jenin, so let somebody in and prove it..not your handpicked guy who will say what you tell him to say
 


<< Jews say this, Palestine says this. What if the Allied would have given the Axis 2 weeks to clean up their concentration camps? I would imagine the death toll would be significantly lower than it was. >>



I don't think you understand how casualties are tabulated. In the case of your "concentration camp" example, the death toll was determinied by the known missing, not the body count in these "camps"(most concentration camps cremated thier victims, leaving no "evidence" as to the number of their causalties). This method is the most "reliable", especially because every "victim" may not be found. I assume that's how the palestinians ultimately came to their conclusion of the death toll in Jenin.
 


<<

<< Jews say this, Palestine says this. What if the Allied would have given the Axis 2 weeks to clean up their concentration camps? I would imagine the death toll would be significantly lower than it was. >>



I don't think you understand how casualties are tabulated. In the case of your "concentration camp" example, the death toll was determinied by the known missing, not the body count in these "camps"(most concentration camps cremated thier victims, leaving no "evidence" as to the number of their causalties). This method is the most "reliable", especially because every "victim" may not be found. I assume that's how the palestinians ultimately came to their conclusion of the death toll in Jenin.
>>



Bing bing bing, we have a winner. Let's find out how many Palestinians are missing from Jenin then we will have a truer number...
 
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