Yes you're utterly wrong i'm afraid
. The S12 range are the quietest active cooling PSU around, (passive is obviously quieter, but that's another story).Look at silent PC review if you care about noise at all.
Yes you're utterly wrong i'm afraid
. The S12 range are the quietest active cooling PSU around, (passive is obviously quieter, but that's another story).Look at silent PC review if you care about noise at all.
obviously you will want to upgrade and add parts to your system? to future proof your watts, get 600w plus. it will help insure that no bottlenecks will be present upon using a 500w. for an expensive system, you want a more powerful psu. don't settle for second best.
Just to clarify, I'm learning about PSUs here. I've had my Ultra 500w for about 3 months. I wasn't asking in order to try and "get away with as little as possible". Like I said, I'm learning.
If my PSU will power my upgraded system fine, then why would I need to go buy a new 600w PSU just for the sake of "more's always better"? But if there's a genuine risk to my components as a result of a weak PSU, then that's an excellent reason for me to buy a new 600w+ PSU.
Point is, I just didn't know. So I asked. Now it seems that I DO in fact need a better PSU to safely operate the new stuff. I'm definitely not interested in frying anything just to save a few bucks on a PSU. But I just hadn't factored in to my budget a new PSU since I already had one.
If my PSU will power my upgraded system fine, then why would I need to go buy a new 600w PSU just for the sake of "more's always better"? But if there's a genuine risk to my components as a result of a weak PSU, then that's an excellent reason for me to buy a new 600w+ PSU.
Point is, I just didn't know. So I asked. Now it seems that I DO in fact need a better PSU to safely operate the new stuff. I'm definitely not interested in frying anything just to save a few bucks on a PSU. But I just hadn't factored in to my budget a new PSU since I already had one.
It's not because it's a weak PSU, the power rating is more than sufficent. The problem is that it's a crap brand that won't supply the rated power. You probalby could stick with the PSU you have and get away with it, but you're increasing the chances of your computer dying explosivly in the future.
PS: I want to see a single link that shows any advantage to using a 600W + PSU to a good 500W PSU for a typical high end gaming computer.
PS: I want to see a single link that shows any advantage to using a 600W + PSU to a good 500W PSU for a typical high end gaming computer.
Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you. Is Ultra a "crap brand" in the same way that a Ford owner says that Chevy is "crap"? As in, every brand has its bad units here and there. Or is it widely known and accepted that Ultra sucks and should be avoided at all costs unless you're just building a meager 'net machine?
How would I go about testing the actual power being supplied to see if it's enough? If it's NOT supplying the advertised amount by a significant amount, then would I have a case for returning it, or is it one of those things that the industry can get away with for whatever reason or loophole and it's just up to the customer to "know better"?
Ultra is a crap brand in so much as they aren't trusted across the board, they rebrand the same generic rubbish as you get in your computer case. There is no real way to test PSUs for the home user and it is just one of those things the industry gets away with.
RussianSensation
Elite Member
- Sep 5, 2003
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Trumps All
Besides PC Power & Cooling, you cant touch single 36A rail with a dual rail PSU. Anything along these lines like OCZ Powestream 520 with 33A single rail will be better for SLI than dual 18A PSUs.
Many overclockers agree that 1 rail > 2 rails
Besides PC Power & Cooling, you cant touch single 36A rail with a dual rail PSU. Anything along these lines like OCZ Powestream 520 with 33A single rail will be better for SLI than dual 18A PSUs.
Many overclockers agree that 1 rail > 2 rails
- Oct 30, 1999
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Did 492.8 for me for over an hour. Mind you that was outside of a case, so it was getting a constant supply of cool air.
http://www.slcentral.com/ultra-x-finity-500w-600w--flexforce-cables/page5.php
So given a realistic de-rating curve of 2W per degree C up to 50C, and a typical case temp of 50C, I would say that in a real world environment about 450W is about the most you could squeeze out of a 500W X-Finity for any prolonged period of time. But given that you would never draw that much current, at least not for more than a few seconds, even with Crossfire or quad-GPU, I think it's a moot point.
You're exposing quite a bit of ignorance there. Have you actually seen a case with a Wintech WIN-500 or WIN-600 pre-installed? Because that's the "relabeled crap" that an Ultra X-Finity 500W and 600W actually are but with the addition of the "FlexForce" cables. I would LOVE to finally get a case with a power supply even CLOSE to the quality of an Ultra X-Finity in it. But in reality, there's no such thing.
I have to actually question whether or not you've had an X-Finity in your hand, never mind even seen a picture of one inside or out. Because if you have and you can still honestly make that statement... I want to know where you're buying these cases from!!!!
There IS a real way to test a power supply to see if it's as good as it's label. It's called going out and spending a few thousand dollars on a load tester. And it is sad, but true, that many power supplies can't do even close to their label.
ANY power supply that comes with a case (Antec is probably the ONLY exception) can usually only do about 75% of what their label claims before they blow up or trip. I've tested Deer, BCC, Raidmax, and they all fail at 75% of their label, and I'm not saying that at 75% they're within spec either. You might see a 12V rail down around... oh... I don't know... 10V before it blows up. And that's amusing in itself since I'd expect a power supply to have under and overvoltage protection in order to prevent damage to other components. Right?
Aspire is almost as bad. They can do what the label claims, but the voltages are as much as 10% off. That's Ok though, because Aspire actually TELLS YOU that the PSU is going to be 10% off at max load! Holy crap!
The 420W that comes in the X-Qpack is an exception. That thing is an utter turd. But would you actually expect to get 420W out of something that's the size of a micro ATX power supply that comes wioth an $80 case? I think not.
Sounds sort of hyprocritical since you've provided nothing to substantiate what you're claims are. So are you just here to try and cause trouble?
At last! Someone who has numbers! Nice review, guess i owe Ultra an appology. Couple of questions if i may, mostly unrelated to this topic but since you seem to be (notably) more knowledgable than I:
Are the loads in your system at all inductive/capacitive and what is the typical phase of load generated by a desktop computer.
Is the derating so minor? 2W per degree means that you're only looking at a ~50W drop going from room temp to high case temps, i konw that some PSUs are rated so the power output drops to zero @ 70*C or so. Obviously it's a curve rather than a straight line, but does it vary from PSU model to model, common sense says it should, which parts define this, the MOSFETS?
Is voltage ripple at all important for overclocking a computer, and would you know of (or be able to do) a review that tests this, or how different PSUs affect overclocking performance?
How much power does an overclocked system draw compared to a non OC'd one?
Do PSUs degrade over time, as in after two years of normal use would you be able to get the same sorts of performance as on day 1 (assuming it's clean etc.)
How much power do desktop computers draw @ boot, and for how long, do you know of any graphs of the power draw for that period?
My issues with Yoda are due to another thread where in very short he says that PCP&C is wonderful, and i say that the performance increase isn't worth the money, i'm trying hard not to start flaming here so i'll just leave it at that.
Are the loads in your system at all inductive/capacitive and what is the typical phase of load generated by a desktop computer.
Is the derating so minor? 2W per degree means that you're only looking at a ~50W drop going from room temp to high case temps, i konw that some PSUs are rated so the power output drops to zero @ 70*C or so. Obviously it's a curve rather than a straight line, but does it vary from PSU model to model, common sense says it should, which parts define this, the MOSFETS?
Is voltage ripple at all important for overclocking a computer, and would you know of (or be able to do) a review that tests this, or how different PSUs affect overclocking performance?
How much power does an overclocked system draw compared to a non OC'd one?
Do PSUs degrade over time, as in after two years of normal use would you be able to get the same sorts of performance as on day 1 (assuming it's clean etc.)
How much power do desktop computers draw @ boot, and for how long, do you know of any graphs of the power draw for that period?
My issues with Yoda are due to another thread where in very short he says that PCP&C is wonderful, and i say that the performance increase isn't worth the money, i'm trying hard not to start flaming here so i'll just leave it at that.
- Oct 30, 1999
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Capacitive load. Here's a better look at the tester: http://jonnyguru.com/psu4.html
Same thing a PSU factory uses except for a little older... which is how I got it so cheap. It actually had to be modified for use with dual 12V rails. For quad rails I have to bust out the Fluke clamping ammeter.
Typically... yes. But not always. For example, the Deers and Powmaxes, etc that blow up at 75% load. How do they get those ratings? Are they rated at 10C? Is the de-rating curve something like 10W per C?!?!
Absolutely. The load tester has an O-scope output and I use an O-scope on every test, but I don't have the kind of scope that lets me output to a file and you can't really take a picture of a 5mv/5ms wave on a scope with a camera, so the best I can do is comment on how straight the line is.
But to put the results of an O-scope in words: The greater the wave, the less "stable" that voltage is. For example, a straight line on the scope means that the 12V is running at a straight 12V, and the voltmeter read out on my ATE is reading nothing but 12V. But if I get a big wave, then you know that 12V is bouncing. And if I look at the voltmeter on the ATE, I might see the voltage moving between 11.8 and 12.1 so fast that I don't even know what number to write down!
The difference is quite small, actually. Say you use a .5V increase to get more out of your CPU. That may only translate to an additional .25A draw on the 12V rail. Not much in the grand scheme of things. What's most important, IMHO, is how well that 12V rail holds up (stability wise.) Voltage regulators on the motherboard do have some degree of tolerance, but I don't feel comfortable with using a power supply that exhibits a .05V fluctuation every 5ms on the 12V rail that's powering my CPU.
Yes!!!! I don't want to target any one vendor, but take a look at Antec for example. They have a knack for blowing caps. Why? Caps swell after prolonged heat exposure. For the sake of making a quieter PSU, they use slower running fans. The fans may keep the FET's cool so voltages are stable, but the long term effects that's going to have on a PSU's caps is DEVISTATING. That's why I think what SPCR does is great in terms of thoroughness, but I'll skip using "the world's quietest PSU" in favor of something "reasonable" that moves enough air to keep the PSU cool.
I agree. For the money, I would rather whip out the plastic for a Silverstone or Enermax Liberty if I'm going to spend almost $200 on a PSU. PCP&C's are no doubt the best power supply on the face of the Earth.... but Bentley's are nice cars too.. I just don't need one!
Thanks for the answers, but i'm too tired to think them all through at the moment
I do have more questions, but i think i'll read your site to see if i can't find them there first. Cheers.
I do have more questions, but i think i'll read your site to see if i can't find them there first. Cheers.
jonnyGURU, doesn't Enhance make the Silverstones.?
Have you tested any Zippy/Emacs.? They are the only PSU manufactuare I've seen that
posts all their certs in pdf form. I ask because I use two. A HP-2 6460P and a HG-2 6400P.
I've been studying over at badcaps.net and they speak of knock-off/counterfit caps entering the supply stream.
They have to double check what they get over there. It was noted that CWT is in love with less-than good caps.
If I can find that post, I'll PM it to you.
TIA, Galvanized
Have you tested any Zippy/Emacs.? They are the only PSU manufactuare I've seen that
posts all their certs in pdf form. I ask because I use two. A HP-2 6460P and a HG-2 6400P.
I've been studying over at badcaps.net and they speak of knock-off/counterfit caps entering the supply stream.
They have to double check what they get over there. It was noted that CWT is in love with less-than good caps.
If I can find that post, I'll PM it to you.
TIA, Galvanized
Not to thread hijack...
But what if my vCore voltages are fluctuating? From ~1.221-1.235, every 1-10 seconds.
Some of the other voltages are fluctuating as well:
+5v From ~5.208-5.182, every few seconds
+12v From ~12.188-12.125, every few seconds
+3.3v From ~3.28-3.3, every few seconds
I am using Intel Desktop Utilities Version 2.1 (Light), see sig for rig, I'm surfing a bit and watching TV on my second monitor, Running some other items.
CPU is floating around ~10%, Memory is ~640MB used..
Thanks!
But what if my vCore voltages are fluctuating? From ~1.221-1.235, every 1-10 seconds.
Some of the other voltages are fluctuating as well:
+5v From ~5.208-5.182, every few seconds
+12v From ~12.188-12.125, every few seconds
+3.3v From ~3.28-3.3, every few seconds
I am using Intel Desktop Utilities Version 2.1 (Light), see sig for rig, I'm surfing a bit and watching TV on my second monitor, Running some other items.
CPU is floating around ~10%, Memory is ~640MB used..
Thanks!
- Oct 30, 1999
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Yes! And no shame in that either.
In fact, I'm putting the finishing touches on the ST60F review as we type. Straightest line on the O-scope I've ever seen.
And I pushed it BEYOND it's rating for the low 3.3+5V crossload test and it STILL passed!No. Nobody that I know that can hook me up carries them and I don't have the flow to just go out and buy one.
Yeah. That's too bad for longevity reasons. Although I don't think CWT is so much to blame as it is Antec. The PCB layout is designated by the manufacturer. The grade of components used is designated by the "assembler." And even though a certain UL and MTBF have been given to a manufacturer, that doesn't necessarily apply to the finished product after it's put in the housing with fans, etc.
Know what I mean? That's actually quite normal for a Pentium 4. That's actually a controlled fluctuation in an effort to cool down a potentially overheating CPU. I'm not an Intel user so I can't say for sure, but I think you can disable it. Same reason why you'd disable Cool n' Quiet on an AMD if you're going to overvolt to overclock it.
Personally, I wouldn't think 10% CPU would cause this, but then again.. you're using software to monitor these voltages. The problem with that is ALL monitoring is done via one chip and all of the rails are being monitored through one connector: The ATX connector. The resistance between point A and point B alone is enough to cause such fluctuations. Considering the fluctuations are so small (small enough to contribute to resistance between the ATX connector and the IC)... I simply wouldn't sweat it.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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cause trouble...Im just quoting you...from other threads....
Bob.....
Your not very good a covering your trail of misinformation...now are you?
Also concerning reviews.....
Alot of individuals who have bought the Seasonic S12`series have posted on other forums that it is a loud PSU....
Yet you claim that the reviews say its not loud at all.....
Whose right...the apples or the oranges???
Bob.....
Your not very good a covering your trail of misinformation...now are you?
Also concerning reviews.....
Alot of individuals who have bought the Seasonic S12`series have posted on other forums that it is a loud PSU....
Yet you claim that the reviews say its not loud at all.....
Whose right...the apples or the oranges???
haha i dunno much about power supplies but i believe johnnyguru just pwned bobthelost lol. gg?
as for OP i got the FSP 600 watt from newegg for about $140. was deciding between that and PCPC forever lol and too many people said the PCPC was too loud. the FSP will be used to power DFI lanpart nf4-ultra, 4800+, 1900xt
as for OP i got the FSP 600 watt from newegg for about $140. was deciding between that and PCPC forever lol and too many people said the PCPC was too loud. the FSP will be used to power DFI lanpart nf4-ultra, 4800+, 1900xt
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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why in this very thread Bob....you state...
Yes you're utterly wrong i'm afraid . The S12 range are the quietest active cooling PSU around, (passive is obviously quieter, but that's another story).
Look at silent PC review if you care about noise at all.
hmmmmm
WTF are you on about?
You say that it's supposed to be loud.
I ask for a source.
...
And here we are then, a single source that shows it as being loud?
Both of you guys are thread killers.
Your like childern fighting over a playground sandbox.
I'm in my late 50's, I know that you JEDI, are not that far behind me in age and Bob
your no youngster posting late at night from the UK.
Your constant fighting has removed any cred either of you might have had.
JEDI, your a one trick pony with your PCP&C PSU.
This thread needs locking*shakes head*
...Galvanized
Your like childern fighting over a playground sandbox.
I'm in my late 50's, I know that you JEDI, are not that far behind me in age and Bob
your no youngster posting late at night from the UK.
Your constant fighting has removed any cred either of you might have had.
JEDI, your a one trick pony with your PCP&C PSU.
This thread needs locking*shakes head*
...Galvanized
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