5 Broken Cameras

[EagleKeeper]

LOL. how ironic. you mean like Israel? always getting America to fight its wars 🙄

When has the united states gone to war for Israel??

Only thing I can think of is when they put patriot missile defense to shoot down scuds in the 1st gulf war.

that in itself was compensation for Israel being ask to sit back and take anything that was thrown at it.

No retaliation was to be done against Iraq by Israel for fear of upsetting the Arbs coalition in place.

 

[Jhhnn]

When has the united states gone to war for Israel??

The two wars with Iraq & sanctions effectively destroyed one of Israel's hostile neighbor's ability to challenge Israel militarily or economically.

Israel benefited more than the US ever will, didn't lift a finger or spend a dime, either. One of the chief reasons given for that invasion was Iraqi support of anti-Israeli terrorists...

It's important to remember that Zionism is a core Neocon value... whether they come right out & say it or not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Its sound like you've conceded that Israel had no right to push the Palestinians out and instead use the 'Palestinian crybaby'/might makes right principle of justifying Israeli expansion of settlements.

Palestinians if anything are the brave ones to use your example. What else would they be for standing up to the biggest military power in the ME since 1948? Until after '67, Egypt was the biggest military power in the ME. Israel was better and planning and executing - she had to be - her life was at stake. And Israel are the ones crying out in the US media that they are in a bitter fight for survival when they are really steamrolling over the last remnants of historical Palestine.




It all boils down to the UN partition of 1948 which was clearly unfair for the Palestinians - pushed by western powers who wanted to wash their hands of the Jewish problem back home, so how are Palestinians picking fights?
The Arabs accepted the partition; intending on destroying Israel and making Palestine pure Arab. The majority of the land was "empty"; no large settlements on it.

I don't see how Palestinians are 'refusing the rules' for statehood when virtually every country in the world is united behind Palestinian demands save for US/Israel/Micronesia and a few lackeys.
The big 5 at the UN had laid out the rules for the Palestinians to obtain recognized statehood. (LL use to crow about that). Palestinians have refused to do so; trying for end arounds. The end around already failed/aborted with the Security Council without the US needing to veto anything.

At least you are not using the might makes right principle for settlements and claim that settlements are only some sort of deterrent against violence from the Palestinians - this is what I got from your statement about uprooting all settlements once Palestine achieves statehood. But this will not be since Israel has no such intentions - read up about the transfer policy in the west bank resulting in 'creating facts' on the ground.

During the '48 war; the Palestinians provided a large amount of manpower on the Arab side.

During the '67 war; the Palestinians were creating incidents prior to the actual conflict; attempting to draw the Arabs into conflict with Israel. It took the soviets to push that over the edge.

After '67, the Palestinians chose to use terror; not to win their territory, but as an excuse to obtain sympathy and support from the Arabs.

The militants choose to sacrifice the civilian population for no military purpose and only for political gain within their organizations.

 

[EagleKeeper]

<snip>

And when hopefully a wiser US President forgets to veto UN sanctions against Israel, then and only then will Israel wake up, smell the coffee, and start making peace with its neighbors. As the wiser and inevitable US policy is to be neutral in the mid-east. Which still does not prevent the USA and the rest of the world from Guaranteeing Israeli security inside its pre 1967 borders as part of the deal.

Israel is at war with only two of it's direct neighbors.
Syria and Lebanon.
Syria is backed by Iran
Lebanon is back by Syria and controlled by Hezbollah.

Syria has been backslapped by Israel every time an actual conflict and embarrassed by other incidents. (Reactor and flybys of Damascus)

Hezbollah wants to be a stick poking the tiger and complaining when the tiger slaps it. supporters will state the Hezbollah beat Israel a few years ago. The truth; Israel was surprised by Hezbollah tactics; quickly adapted and forced Hezbollah into a route back through Lebanon, with Hezbollah crying to the UN for protection from their own mistakes.

Egypt has a treaty; even though the ISlamist have the government, and there was talk about breaking treaties/agreements, it never occurred.

Jordan has economic ties with Israel and neither wants trouble that could aggravate the Palestinian problems.

That takes care of the direct neighbors.
Cyprus - trade agreements have recently been implemented.
Iraq - they have their own issues - no need to be concerned with Israel and the Palestinians
Saudi - they have their own issues - no need to be concerned with Israel and the Palestinians
Iran - paper tiger with exception of the nuke program.
Libya- they have their own issues - no need to be concerned with Israel and the Palestinians


The peace/prosperity and the status quo works well with the direct neighbors and the indirect neighbors also.


So LL - who does Israel have to make peace with to secure their country.
The Palestinians do not want peace nor do they want the status quo.

 

[bononos]

Until after '67, Egypt was the biggest military power in the ME. Israel was better and planning and executing - she had to be - her life was at stake

The Arabs accepted the partition; intending on destroying Israel and making Palestine pure Arab. The majority of the land was "empty"; no large settlements on it.

The big 5 at the UN had laid out the rules for the Palestinians to obtain recognized statehood. (LL use to crow about that). Palestinians have refused to do so; trying for end arounds. The end around already failed/aborted with the Security Council without the US needing to veto anything.

During the '48 war; the Palestinians provided a large amount of manpower on the Arab side.

During the '67 war; the Palestinians were creating incidents prior to the actual conflict; attempting to draw the Arabs into conflict with Israel. It took the soviets to push that over the edge.

After '67, the Palestinians chose to use terror; not to win their territory, but as an excuse to obtain sympathy and support from the Arabs.

The militants choose to sacrifice the civilian population for no military purpose and only for political gain within their organizations.

Israel always had the upper hand militarily, even during the 1948 conflict. American intel forecasted that Israel would win a military conflict with its neighbours during 1967 in ~10 days and Israel managed to do it in less time.

Arabs did not accept the partition as evidenced by their votes in Nov 1947 for the UN partition plan and the fact that much of the world was still under colonialism meant that the big 5 could push the partition plan through. Because Zionism was an offshoot of communism it was in Russia's interest to have a like minded colony in the ME. The Arabs did not go with the 1947 partition plan at all- they rejected it outright. It was the Zionists who accepted the partition plan as a stopgap with the objective of enlargening the territory of Israel in the future.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The two wars with Iraq & sanctions effectively destroyed one of Israel's hostile neighbor's ability to challenge Israel militarily or economically.

Israel benefited more than the US ever will, didn't lift a finger or spend a dime, either. One of the chief reasons given for that invasion was Iraqi support of anti-Israeli terrorists...

it is a moot point who benefited...the US did NOT fight those wars for Israel....

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel always had the upper hand militarily, even during the 1948 conflict. American intel forecasted that Israel would win a military conflict with its neighbours during 1967 in ~10 days and Israel managed to do it in less time.

Arabs did not accept the partition as evidenced by their votes in Nov 1947 for the UN partition plan and the fact that much of the world was still under colonialism meant that the big 5 could push the partition plan through. Because Zionism was an offshoot of communism it was in Russia's interest to have a like minded colony in the ME. The Arabs did not go with the 1947 partition plan at all- they rejected it outright. It was the Zionists who accepted the partition plan as a stopgap with the objective of enlargening the territory of Israel in the future.

I misstated on the Arbs accepting.
They wanted it all; and intended on getting it all even if there was a partition.

Israel always had the "upper hand" because they knew they would get no second chance. It was always a do or die situation for them.

Even if they won, it was a temporary lull; the Arabs would not give up trying.

It took 5 conflicts to finally force safe borders for Israel that the Arabs nations honored.

then you have the Palestinian groups that have demonstrated no desire for peace and continue to attack/harass Israel today.

But even though they harass, they also complain when Israel strikes back.

they pulled the same stunt in Jordan and Jordan treated the PAlestinians much differently than the tolerance the Israel shows.

 

[bononos]

I misstated on the Arbs accepting.
They wanted it all; and intended on getting it all even if there was a partition.

Israel always had the "upper hand" because they knew they would get no second chance. It was always a do or die situation for them.

Even if they won, it was a temporary lull; the Arabs would not give up trying.

It took 5 conflicts to finally force safe borders for Israel that the Arabs nations honored.

then you have the Palestinian groups that have demonstrated no desire for peace and continue to attack/harass Israel today.

But even though they harass, they also complain when Israel strikes back.

they pulled the same stunt in Jordan and Jordan treated the PAlestinians much differently than the tolerance the Israel shows.

Of course they 'wanted it all' since it was all theirs to begin with. Why should the Arabs in Palestine have to cut out half their land for European immigrants in the first place?

""I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?......

 

[EagleKeeper]

Of course they 'wanted it all' since it was all theirs to begin with. Why should the Arabs in Palestine have to cut out half their land for European immigrants in the first place?

""I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?......

The Arabs never cared about those that lived in Palestine and they still do not.

It is the fact that there are non-Arabs in the middle of the Arab world.

Those that lived in the area of Palestine had no real problems living side by side with the Jews the immigrated to the area in the early years.
They traded with the Jews; sold produce and land, etc.
Large empty spaces; people were happy to have neighbors.

The Arabs (excluding the Palestinians) were the ones that had a burr up their asses. It itched so much that they had to scratch the itch which made the area inflamed. Medicine may help reduce the swelling but until that burr is removed; the itch will always be there and the potential for inflamation exists. All that scratching did was to push the burr in so deep that it can not be removed safely; they are going to have to live with the itch.

 

[bononos]

The Arabs never cared about those that lived in Palestine and they still do not.
It is the fact that there are non-Arabs in the middle of the Arab world.

Those that lived in the area of Palestine had no real problems living side by side with the Jews the immigrated to the area in the early years.
They traded with the Jews; sold produce and land, etc.
Large empty spaces; people were happy to have neighbors.

The Arabs (excluding the Palestinians) were the ones that had a burr up their asses.....

Whether the other Arabs states cared about Palestinians is irrelevant. Its a fact that the Jewish population before the zionist migrations were tiny and were not a political threat to Arabs and Palestinians.
All the Arabs including Palestinians were furious that the zionists were immigrating in large numbers and were planning and pushing to carve up Palestine to create Israel, hence Ben Gurion's quote that I posted previously.

 

[Whiskey16]

The Arabs (excluding the Palestinians) were the ones that had a burr up their asses. It itched so much that they had to scratch the itch which made the area inflamed.

A dishonest disconnect, eh? Twisting representation of Palestinians from that of surrounding states when it suits your argument for Israeli illegal mass punishment upon a population, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and colonisation:

Apparently you believe that the Palestinians should be rewarded for picking a fight and losing it. :whiste:

A crime is a crime, EagleKeeper. Israel is either bound by its own ratified international conventions and laws or a rogue state and the exception to all the rules that have come to pass since the conclusion of World War II. Israel is in control. Israel is the problem. A resolution may only come to pass upon the choice of the Israeli state or when enforced upon Israel. Many Israelis and fellow Jews do agree with me.

The sad irony is of lebensraum being official Israeli policy is lost upon many.

The OP's supported film upon the Israeli forced removal of legal land owners from their own land under a guise of the occupiers enforcing a military zone is just that. Many of such Palestinian exclusion zones are then illegally incorporated for Israeli Zionist colonisation.

Israeli colonialisation benefit from and have strategic goals of diminishing the stature of Arabs of Muslims to the Israel population and their Western donors. The overt hatred and bigotry displayed in this thread furthers crimes, from that of the likes of Anders Breivik to Israeli criminal expansion.

 

[EagleKeeper]

some will hate the Arabs
some will hate the Jews/Israelis

Some will hate the Palestinians.

Either way. the UN setup the state of Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians have since conspired to remove it.

The Arabs had no interest in a split solution; that would legitimize Israel.
The Palestinians are a pawn to them and have caused more headaches for multiple Arab countries than they have provided any positive benefits.

They tried to to destroy Jordan.
Actions in Lebanon created a weak government their that has been exploited by Syria, Iran and Hezbollah.
Actions in the Sinai have kept tensions higher than needed between Israel and Egypt.

 

[bononos]

some will hate the Arabs
some will hate the Jews/Israelis
Some will hate the Palestinians.

Either way. the UN setup the state of Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians have since conspired to remove it.

The Arabs had no interest in a split solution; that would legitimize Israel.
The Palestinians are a pawn to them and have caused more headaches for multiple Arab countries than they have provided any positive benefits.

They tried to to destroy Jordan.
Actions in Lebanon created a weak government their that has been exploited by Syria, Iran and Hezbollah.
Actions in the Sinai have kept tensions higher than needed between Israel and Egypt.

If the nation of Israel wasn't bulldozed through the UN by the big 5 in 1947, there wouldn't be the hate you are talking about. The UN vote in 1947 would've failed if was held 20yrs later when most countries under colonialism achieved independence.

You are right that Arabs didn't agree to a 1947 partition - why would they? Its like Mexico annexing Texas today. Ben Gurion was spot on.

Israeli settlers sprouted kibuttzim in the Sinai after 1967 which also escalated tensions way high with Egypt. No doubt they believed that their divine mandate extended from the Nile to the Euphrates.

 

[Druidx]

LOL. how ironic. you mean like Israel? always getting America to fight its wars 🙄

I laughed

 

[EagleKeeper]

If the nation of Israel wasn't bulldozed through the UN by the big 5 in 1947, there wouldn't be the hate you are talking about. The UN vote in 1947 would've failed if was held 20yrs later when most countries under colonialism achieved independence.

You are right that Arabs didn't agree to a 1947 partition - why would they? Its like Mexico annexing Texas today. Ben Gurion was spot on.

Israeli settlers sprouted kibuttzim in the Sinai after 1967 which also escalated tensions way high with Egypt. No doubt they believed that their divine mandate extended from the Nile to the Euphrates.

Amazing what 20/20 hindsight does. The big 5 pushed it through on land that was close to empty and control lost by a group of people that chose the wrong side of a conflict.

The main concept is that the Arabs did not want a non-Arab state in their midst.

They did not care about the Palestinians; they were just a proxy.

 

[bononos]

Amazing what 20/20 hindsight does. The big 5 pushed it through on land that was close to empty and control lost by a group of people that chose the wrong side of a conflict.

The main concept is that the Arabs did not want a non-Arab state in their midst.

They did not care about the Palestinians; they were just a proxy.

I don't think any serious historian would endorse that line of reasoning for a new Zionist state because there are Ottoman records that flatly refute the sparse/empty land myth. Hertzl and Ben Gurion knew full well that Palestine was not a mostly empty land as you think. The Jewish deputation late 19th century went to Palestine and reported back home that "The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man. Ben Gurion - "Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

 

[Whiskey16]

Let's be clear, EagleKeeper, and much of the rest of the forum -- a society is presented and evolves in how it acts and reacts to interaction. AnandTech is apparently damned. You and far too many members here refuse to stand up against and condemn such generically hateful and violent speech such as this:

It's amazing how many people want to protect the same barbaric culture that riots whenever someone makes a silly movie or comic strip about their religion. The same religion that stones women to death for being raped. How people can remain Muslin today and not be ashamed of their religion, I have no idea.

Israel should and could march across the middle east like Alexander the Great and kill every man, women, and child.

Muslims are terrorists though. They even terrorize their own people, they are 10x worse than the nazis. The leader of the muslim world Ilatola whatever is basically Hitler in a turbin. They recruit terrorists in their mosques all over the world.

I presented you an opportunity to present a better character, but you deflected to your more pertinent and argumentative thesis:

the UN setup the state of Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians have since conspired to remove it.

You refuse to condemn the above language as it originates from your partisan side. The violent thugs of above and on through to the likes of Anders Breivik (who we should all be aware posted very similar filth on other internet forums before violently acting his hatred out) serve the equivalent purpose as the Nazi brownshirts.

You and most of this forum will not do the socially and morally correct action to marginalise and condemn them, as they are your partisan comrades. EagleKeeper, they serve a partisan role to rally up discontent against the identified group and thereby push foward the political and strategic cause. In this case, to degrade and dehumanise all Arabs/Muslims to further the Zionist Israeli goal to entrench their power within Israel and expand beyond the Israel state, displacing the local people in favour of their own.

 

[Nebor]

Whiskey, just because you're the most well-spoken of the barbarians doesn't mean we don't recognize you as one of them. Your goals and interests are aligned with theirs, and that is a combined religion & state, and a caliphate.

I realize there are some people dumb enough to fall for your little shame and guilt tactics, but most of us see right through it. You and those like you are the enemy of the West and it's way of life. That's why you're ignored, denigrated and laughed at despite what I'm sure is a significant effort to construct eloquent arguments to make us feel bad. But like I said, those of us with more than an academic knowledge of you and your kind wouldn't mind if you filmed us while we put your entire extended family in one mass grave, because we know eventually it'll be you or us. We either fight now, alongside Israel, or wait until you convince enough idiots to let you gain the upper hand.


Way, way, way over any line.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[SandEagle]

Whiskey, just because you're the most well-spoken of the barbarians doesn't mean we don't recognize you as one of them. Your goals and interests are aligned with theirs, and that is a combined religion & state, and a caliphate.

I realize there are some people dumb enough to fall for your little shame and guilt tactics, but most of us see right through it. You and those like you are the enemy of the West and it's way of life. That's why you're ignored, denigrated and laughed at despite what I'm sure is a significant effort to construct eloquent arguments to make us feel bad. But like I said, those of us with more than an academic knowledge of you and your kind wouldn't mind if you filmed us while we put your entire extended family in one mass grave, because we know eventually it'll be you or us. We either fight now, alongside Israel, or wait until you convince enough idiots to let you gain the upper hand.

lol. typical shill tactic of trying to belittle one's character. grow up boy. if Americans and Zio-supporting Christians really knew how they get treated, they would reconsider this fake friendship that we have with this fake democratic country in the ME.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

 

[Nebor]

lol. typical shill tactic of trying to belittle one's character. grow up boy. if Americans and Zio-supporting Christians really knew how they get treated, they would reconsider this fake friendship that we have with this fake democratic country in the ME.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

And if most bleeding heart types would open their eyes and see how their kind get treated in countries where people like you were in charge, they wouldn't listen to anything you have to say either.

 

[Whiskey16]

Another sad example of how poor this sub-forum society on AnandTech has degraded itself into vitriolic bigotry and of how extremists feel to have gained a free reign to incite to violence:

... knowledge of you and your kind wouldn't mind if you filmed us while we put your entire extended family in one mass grave, because we know eventually it'll be you or us.

I take this as it was written -- a direct and violent personal threat made by one forum member to another.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Either way. the UN setup the state of Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians have since conspired to remove it.

The Arabs had no interest in a split solution; that would legitimize Israel.
The Palestinians are a pawn to them and have caused more headaches for multiple Arab countries than they have provided any positive benefits.

You refuse to condemn the above language as it originates from your partisan side. The violent thugs of above and on through to the likes of Anders Breivik (who we should all be aware posted very similar filth on other internet forums before violently acting his hatred out) serve the equivalent purpose as the Nazi brownshirts.

You and most of this forum will not do the socially and morally correct action to marginalise and condemn them, as they are your partisan comrades. EagleKeeper, they serve a partisan role to rally up discontent against the identified group and thereby push foward the political and strategic cause. In this case, to degrade and dehumanise all Arabs/Muslims to further the Zionist Israeli goal to entrench their power within Israel and expand beyond the Israel state, displacing the local people in favor of their own.

Why should I condemn the language that reflects the truth in the actions of the Palestinians?

The Arab countries from '48 through '67 were very eager to remove Israel from the scene and the Palestinians were will accomplices.

While the Palestinians are people; their leadership does not think of them as such; but rather as cannon fodder to suit the leaderships political aims.

Given the way they are treated in other Arab countries; why blame Israel alone for their plight.

At present, there are two main groups fighting for control of the Palestinian government. Both also have proxies to assist in maintaining their internal political status.

Both promise something to the local population to keep them under control; both know they are unable to deliver.
Hamas - extermination of Israel and a Palestinian state covering the British Mandate
Fatah - Palestinian state covering all the West Bank and Gaza

1) Because both are unrealistic
2) The Arab sponsors will not accept what is actually reasonable.


The Palestinians had chances for statehood - the Arabs would not allow such.
Now the Palestinians must live within the realistic political climate and decide what is best for them; accept that they made mistakes in the past and live with them or continue to follow the path that has put them in the present situation.

It is like those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

or Learn form ones mistakes.

or If one is to continually repeat the same actions with the same result; do not expect the repeat the action again will change the outcome next time.

 

[Whiskey16]

Why should I condemn the language that reflects the truth in the actions of the Palestinians?

Let the record stand that EagleKeeper is in reaffirming support and an advocate for what he characterises the following as being the "truth:"

It's amazing how many people want to protect the same barbaric culture that riots whenever someone makes a silly movie or comic strip about their religion. The same religion that stones women to death for being raped. How people can remain Muslin today and not be ashamed of their religion, I have no idea.

Israel should and could march across the middle east like Alexander the Great and kill every man, women, and child.

Muslims are terrorists though. They even terrorize their own people, they are 10x worse than the nazis. The leader of the muslim world Ilatola whatever is basically Hitler in a turbin. They recruit terrorists in their mosques all over the world.

The generalised hate speech and incitement to violence tolerated and perpetrated in this society of AnandTech is ill. As the written record stands, it is now up to the general membership of AnandTech on through to the moderation and the owners to stand against the very identical bigotry against Arabs/Muslims that is already justly determined to be intolerable against blacks, Jews, and other historically chasticed groups.

This societal toleration for accepted hatred upon a group is what permits the comfortable ease of Nebor to openly warn/threat of "we'll put your entire extended family in one mass grave." That spoken out in violent prejudice upon, unbeknownst to him, a Canadian Jewish man.

These very same hatred and calls to extermination are openly advocated and apparently tolerated on AnandTech. Historically, my family has directly faced identical bigotry on through to portions having suffered under a genocide. I know personally face the same spoken threats at AnandTech.

Does AnandTech stand by these threats and thereby continue support for their hosted publication?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Someone here thinks that he is a lawyer and legal threats will turn off free speech.

You will yet to find a single statement that I hate/despise Arabs/Muslims.

You will find statements that the Palestinians have made poor choices and do not deserve second chances as long as they continue to attempt to exterminate Israel.

 

[trenchfoot]

"Free speech is a double edged sword. A very sharp, unprejudiced double edged sword. Wield this sword with the same consideration as wielding a shield made of crystal glass." <----Forgot where I read this.

Just say'in. 😉