40 hr work week.

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: Corn

I think the reason unemployment is so high is that employers are making workers work longer and longer hours so they don't have to hire new workers. Should we basically have a mandated 40 hr work week to resolve this issue?

Good luck getting unions to agree..........

BOBDN sez:

Right now everyone is running scared and that's just the way the Republicans want it.

That's about as ignorant a statement as I've read. But seeing where it came from, not suprised in the least. Your whole post reeks of bullsh1t, and since your track record is rife with misrepresentations and half-truths as it is, I'm gonna be hard pressed to believe a single word of it.

Strange how I work for one of the largest corporate entities ever in the history of the industrialized world, run by die hard Republicans, and yet we've one of the most generous white collar (read: salaried) benefit packages around. For example: A new hire clerk receives 23 days paid time off after 6 months of service, in addition to 8 paid holidays (thats nearly 6 weeks of time off per year!). Hours are flex time (within reason) and even though that clerk is a salaried employee, hours worked overtime (including hours worked at home) are paid at the equivalent of time and a half.

Are we asked to work overtime occasionally? Hell yes we are. One of the main reasons for this is because layoffs are painfull. When workflow demands more bodies we hire temps to complete non-technical/non-skilled tasks and the "regular" employees are able to focus their skills and talents more precisely. Yeah, sometimes it's a bitch, but in an industry that is rife with turnover, most of my co-workers have double digit years tenure at my employer. Our employer is loyal, and our employees are loyal.

The corporate world is full of incompentance. My Republican (LOL, are they all Republicans? Of course not, but those that know whom I work for know how "republican friendly" my employer is) employers are interested in hiring and KEEPING talent. *This* is the way that Republicans (or simply good capitalists) want it.

Sounds to me like BOBDN's shop is run by Democrats.

Now, if only unions were honest.

If only..............

Your company may be an exception but even though by your authority all my opinions are BS I'll stick by them. I've been working for over 36 years, part time as a student, self employed for a few years, union jobs and non-union jobs, labor and management positions the rest of the time. The company I work for now is one of the most staunchly Republican comapnies in the USA started by people intent on killing the transportation industry union - the Teamsters. And they are succeeding.

Now with the "consolidation" of the transportation industry they have their choice of drivers and management personnel. Several MAJOR long time union transportation companies have gone under in the past few years and the non-union companies with the assistance of the US government are the reason.

The only reason non-union transportation company's pay scale and benefits are comparable to union pay scale and benefits is the UNIONS. With the weakening of the Teamsters the non-union companies are tightening the screws on their workers. I can see the writing on the wall. With any luck I'll be able to retire before the wages and benefits in the transportation industry - previously one of the best paying blue collar occupations in the USA - start to slide to WalMart levels.

My boss is a Republican stalwart. His boss is too. As well as his boss. All the way up to the top of the company. They know my views and they try to convince me to change. I don't mince words there just as I don't mince words here. When I tell them just what I printed above - the Republicans want people to run scared for their jobs - they don't deny it. A look of realization comes over their faces. The realization people aren't fooled by them, only powerless to do anything about it.

I've told the same to anyone in our corporation who asks my opinion. Up to and including the CEO. I've never heard a denial. Just that look they get when they realize the people they're trying to sell this to know they're being sold a line of BS.

I told anyone who would listen in 2000 we had to keep the Bush administration out of the White House. "Don't you remember what happened to us the last time a Bush was in the White House?" Well, here we are again. Recession, war, unemployment, poverty, corporate collusion, attack on the environment etc. etc. And the fact that Republican administration and the corporate criminals they are in collusion with want working people to be afraid for their jobs. Just keep your mouth shut and do what you're told. That's their idea of America. Your rights end at the front door.

If you don't like it you can always go find another job, right?

 

[BOBDN]

PS

Unions are honest. They brought the American worker into the middle class. They are responsible for the pay scale and benefits most people who still have a decent wage and benefits enjoy today.

You people who constantly knock unions forget they were formed to combat the dishonesty of the corporate criminals who abused workers for years.

You want to return the American worker to those days? You want to make America a third world country? You're doing a great job.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: drag

Look at Germany. It's a good example of a decent socialist state. They are technically savy, highly educated people, with a strong tradition of hard work and it is a rather large economy in it's own right. Were does all this Government meddeling in the private business affairs of the average person got them? Nowhere. Their ecomony is going nowhere. It doesn't grow it doesn't decline. One quarter it's up .2% the next it's down .2%. No chance for change, you can't adapt to new situations or grab at new opertunities. No hope for it to ever improve. Now it's probably as good as it will get for the next decade. Once something is a law or a rule, how easy is it to change? It's almost impossible to repeil something like that, so all you can do is throw more tax money at it or pass new regulations to counteract the effect. Then you get even more ingrained and inflexable.

Just think. What until some legislator or Leader makes a real bonehead move that seems a good idea at the time. It's going to happen and there is nothing anybody can do about it. It's human nature to make mistakes occasionally, even if you have 300 people in the senate agreeing with you.

The difference is that in a capitolist/freedom-based economy if somebody makes a mistake it's their problem. Only them and their company is going to suffer. Probably have a side effect of openning opertunitie for others, anyways. The effect on the whole is minor. A mistake in the Government then EVERYBODY is screwed by law!

In the United States economy, a 2.3% growth rate is a bad thing. It's something kinda slow and dreadfull and not much realy going on. This is what our economy is at right now.

Anyways. Personal Freedom is more important then the economy is anyways. Business dealings are just one faction of it, which is what liberty means; you have the right to do with the results of your labor what you will. Weither it's working for money, starting your own business, or growing potatoes, it makes no difference.

Personally I would rather be dirt poor and hungry then be a ward of the state. If somebody wants to be taken care of and coddled after, there is a whole world full of people that would love to tell you what you can and can't do with your life.

No one is saying the U.S. should adopt the ways of Germany. No one is saying that Government should control business either or become a "Ward of the State".

Just saying that since Unions have gone by way of the Do Do bird that there obviously needs to be some protections put in place to protect the citizens from being expolited by Corporations exploiting the system.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
PS

Unions are honest. They brought the American worker into the middle class. They are responsible for the pay scale and benefits most people who still have a decent wage and benefits enjoy today.

You people who constantly knock unions forget they were formed to combat the dishonesty of the corporate criminals who abused workers for years.

You want to return the American worker to those days? You want to make America a third world country? You're doing a great job.

Yes, unions had a place in the workplace way back when. But today Unions are destroying worker responsibility and rights. Every little bitch and moan goes to the union steward - not to the person's manager. Workers work for a company - NOT a Union. The Union doesn't pay their bills - the Company does and infact the Union scams money from the people it claims it is helping. Now again - there is a time and place for Unions but in today's society Unions are enablers not protectors. If you ask me - Unions of today are exactly why companies are moving elsewhere - Unions demand and drive up wages here so the company has no choice but to look for cheaper help. Unions seem to forget who is the granter of Jobs - the company. So yes - If you don't like it - find a better employer - don't give up your individual rights as a worker just because a Union claims it'll take care of you because YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS once you join a union. YOU can't go after the company - the Union has to. I won't give my individual working rights to anyone because I take responsibility for my own work and job choices.

CkG

 

[drag]

Unions are Ok. We need all types and for different businesses will actually benifit from the services that Unions can offer. Like being able find workers on demand or being able to move workforces from one part of the country to another and be garrenteed a certian amount workers that will be there, be skilled, and be willing to work.

However the cloat that the Unions have in local and federal governments are absured. Out of the countries work force only about 15% of the workforce is actually unionized, but to hear about it in the news or new public monuments you'd think that everybody in their mom needs to have a union to survive.

This causes some resentment from people that are perfectly capable of looking out for themselves with no help from a large political group.

For some, the time of Unions have passed, but I don't know. Maybe stuff like guilds are better, like a plummers guild or a electical workers guild. Like the bar associations for lawyers. Some thing independent from government but still being relevent to the people that belong to it.

My personal opinion is that some Unions are living in the past. A independent and educated workforce is the key to developing a fair and balanced employment/employer relationships. Some are still needed, escpecially in places were more then 20-30 percent of the population works for only one or two companies.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: drag
Unions are Ok. We need all types and for different businesses will actually benifit from the services that Unions can offer. Like being able find workers on demand or being able to move workforces from one part of the country to another and be garrenteed a certian amount workers that will be there, be skilled, and be willing to work.

However the cloat that the Unions have in local and federal governments are absured. Out of the countries work force only about 15% of the workforce is actually unionized, but to hear about it in the news or new public monuments you'd think that everybody in their mom needs to have a union to survive.

This causes some resentment from people that are perfectly capable of looking out for themselves with no help from a large political group.

For some, the time of Unions have passed, but I don't know. Maybe stuff like guilds are better, like a plummers guild or a electical workers guild. Like the bar associations for lawyers. Some thing independent from government but still being relevent to the people that belong to it.

My personal opinion is that some Unions are living in the past. A independent and educated workforce is the key to developing a fair and balanced employment/employer relationships. Some are still needed, escpecially in places were more then 20-30 percent of the population works for only one or two companies.

Unions have their place, but they can be terrible organizations when they get too much power.

 

[Moonbeam]

Unions have their place, but they can be terrible organizations when they get too much power.
------------------------------
Ahahahahahahaha. Yup, power is bad. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I can't wait till I figure out why that's funny.

 

[LunarRay]

You belong to the clown union and clowns are funny... cept when on strike and have to walk in them funny big shoes but, with all that understanding you'd think they'd simply honk their noses and go back to greeting folks at McDonald's..

 

[JellyBaby]

Unions have their place, but they can be terrible organizations when they get too much power.

Your worldview has too much power and I am terrified of it.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN
PS

Unions are honest. They brought the American worker into the middle class. They are responsible for the pay scale and benefits most people who still have a decent wage and benefits enjoy today.

You people who constantly knock unions forget they were formed to combat the dishonesty of the corporate criminals who abused workers for years.

You want to return the American worker to those days? You want to make America a third world country? You're doing a great job.

Yes, unions had a place in the workplace way back when. But today Unions are destroying worker responsibility and rights. Every little bitch and moan goes to the union steward - not to the person's manager. Workers work for a company - NOT a Union. The Union doesn't pay their bills - the Company does and infact the Union scams money from the people it claims it is helping. Now again - there is a time and place for Unions but in today's society Unions are enablers not protectors. If you ask me - Unions of today are exactly why companies are moving elsewhere - Unions demand and drive up wages here so the company has no choice but to look for cheaper help. Unions seem to forget who is the granter of Jobs - the company. So yes - If you don't like it - find a better employer - don't give up your individual rights as a worker just because a Union claims it'll take care of you because YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS once you join a union. YOU can't go after the company - the Union has to. I won't give my individual working rights to anyone because I take responsibility for my own work and job choices.

CkG

I'll guarantee you this - when the corporate criminals finally realize their goal of putting all unions out of business your chances of going to management and excercising your individual rights will be zero.

You forget why unions became a necessity and how employers treated workers befor the advent of unions in America.

By the time you remember it'll be too late.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: BOBDN
PS

Unions are honest. They brought the American worker into the middle class. They are responsible for the pay scale and benefits most people who still have a decent wage and benefits enjoy today.

You people who constantly knock unions forget they were formed to combat the dishonesty of the corporate criminals who abused workers for years.

You want to return the American worker to those days? You want to make America a third world country? You're doing a great job.

Yes, unions had a place in the workplace way back when. But today Unions are destroying worker responsibility and rights. Every little bitch and moan goes to the union steward - not to the person's manager. Workers work for a company - NOT a Union. The Union doesn't pay their bills - the Company does and infact the Union scams money from the people it claims it is helping. Now again - there is a time and place for Unions but in today's society Unions are enablers not protectors. If you ask me - Unions of today are exactly why companies are moving elsewhere - Unions demand and drive up wages here so the company has no choice but to look for cheaper help. Unions seem to forget who is the granter of Jobs - the company. So yes - If you don't like it - find a better employer - don't give up your individual rights as a worker just because a Union claims it'll take care of you because YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS once you join a union. YOU can't go after the company - the Union has to. I won't give my individual working rights to anyone because I take responsibility for my own work and job choices.

CkG

I'll guarantee you this - when the corporate criminals finally realize their goal of putting all unions out of business your chances of going to management and excercising your individual rights will be zero.

You forget why unions became a necessity and how employers treated workers befor the advent of unions in America.

By the time you remember it'll be too late.

You again fail to read and comprehend my post. I said Unions have their time and place. I just don't think that they need to be everywhere and all consuming.
You can't guarentee squat - management will always have to listen to their employees otherwise they will leave and the company will spiral downward. Your individual rights as a worker will NEVER be "zero" unless you are literally a slave(not figuratively). You can always exercise your right to LEAVE. Remember - YOU CHOOSE your employer.
There are "bad" companies out there - I choose not to work for them as should others. People shouldn't cower in fear and run to a Union because they feel threatened. They should buck-up and take personal responsibility for placing themselves in a bad organization. Corporations will soon realize that they need to change their ways if they want good quality workers.
BOBDN - I will NEVER join a union and will NEVER allow a union into any business I may run. I will hire workers, fire workers, set their pay, and set their benefits - if they don't like what I have to offer - then they can find their own way to the door. I don't want a worker who can't stand up for themself and call sh!t - sh!t. I want a productive worker who offers all they can - and will be rewarded when they do so.
Now as to joining a union - I will never - because I will not give up my right to address management myself. If they won't listen - I leave. It's the company's loss. I value my individual rights as an employee and won't give them up to any group who may or may not represent what I believe.
I guess the difference here is in attitude. I feel that the worker owes the company an honest days work and in return the company pay them an amount agreeable to both(since the worker CHOSE to accept the job offer). I feel my work more than fulfills my end of the bargain so I don't need "protection" because if this company doesn't see my value - there certainly will be a different one who does.
It's interesting - because I'm currently at this very point with my current employer. I've been treated well and been given the opportunity to prove myself - and I have more than done so. It's now time for them to hold up to their end of the bargain and pay up If not - there are others who will see my experience as valuable.

CkG

 

[BOBDN]

Let's put a few ideas together here.

First you have a job climate created by the current administration where people find themselves lucky to have any job.

Now let's apply your idea of people being free to choose their employer.

Now try telling the millions of unemployed workers they have the right to choose who they work for along with the right to walk out if they don't like their employer.

Try coming home from walking out of your job, facing your wife and kids and explaining to them you did it because you didn't like working for your employer. And then explain to them why you can't find another job.

You may be in the enviable position of providing a rare skill. There are millions of workers who are not in your position. There are millions of jobs that don't require a rare skill. People who fill these positions are at the mercy of their employer because under the current Republican administraion's economic devastation policy there are millions of unemployed workers who would be happy to replace them.

This is why Republicans like it when people are in fear of losing their jobs and why we need unions to keep employers from abusing workers.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Let's put a few ideas together here.

First you have a job climate created by the current administration where people find themselves lucky to have any job.

Now let's apply your idea of people being free to choose their employer.

Now try telling the millions of unemployed workers they have the right to choose who they work for along with the right to walk out if they don't like their employer.

Try coming home from walking out of your job, facing your wife and kids and explaining to them you did it because you didn't like working for your employer. And then explain to them why you can't find another job.

You may be in the enviable position of providing a rare skill. There are millions of workers who are not in your position. There are millions of jobs that don't require a rare skill. People who fill these positions are at the mercy of their employer because under the current Republican administraion's economic devastation policy there are millions of unemployed workers who would be happy to replace them.

This is why Republicans like it when people are in fear of losing their jobs and why we need unions to keep employers from abusing workers.

No - these people are in that position because they put themselves there. PERIOD. You can't blame what a company does on Bush or his supposed "economic devastation policy"

I posses no "rare" skill I'm just "motivated" and seek challenges. My company saw such and made it possible for me to prove things. I have done such(IMO) and now it's time for them to pay up If not - I'll go elsewhere.
Oh, and I have come home and faced a wife and an infant after leaving a job with nothing in the works. So don't give me that emotional rhetoric.

CkG

 

[JellyBaby]

I posses no "rare" skill

That's true enough since most people believe their situation is exactly the same as everyone else's, just as you do.

But open the curtain and look around a bit. There are employees out there with job security, true enough. But there are also people working 60-80 hours hours per week just to provide job security through that week. They fear losing their jobs that much. And these aren't underskilled, poorly educated folk either.

Could Bush be doing more? Absolutely. Will he? Heh, he should already pushed to eliminate H-1 and L-1 visa programs at the very least. Congress is asleep as well. They're so completely out of touch with the experience of an average America it's stunning. They just gave themselves a nice raise, too.

So don't give me that emotional rhetoric.

Are you afraid to feel? Your brothers and sisters are hurting and it really isn't their fault. Bush can help but he's got tee times and PNAC briefings to read. Congress is dreaming about next term when they cash in safe and sound. What will CadGuy do?

 

[LunarRay]

CAD said:
Oh, and I have come home and faced a wife and an infant after leaving a job with nothing in the works. So don't give me that emotional rhetoric
**************

You have a very positive mind set regarding not only your ability but the market in which you function. You believe in the Current Policy (ies) and that the leadership of the company you work in can and will survive and provide you the positive results of your effort.
BUT! There are many who for whatever reason (other than being lazy) don't have the same 'feeling' or are unable to take the risk, don't have the same talents, less self esteem and on and on.. These folks languish not because they are lazy but because their management 'blew' it... or the policy 'blew' it or the competition from where ever did the Company in.. These are real feelings and or conditions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD said:
Oh, and I have come home and faced a wife and an infant after leaving a job with nothing in the works. So don't give me that emotional rhetoric
**************

You have a very positive mind set regarding not only your ability but the market in which you function. You believe in the Current Policy (ies) and that the leadership of the company you work in can and will survive and provide you the positive results of your effort.
BUT! There are many who for whatever reason (other than being lazy) don't have the same 'feeling' or are unable to take the risk, don't have the same talents, less self esteem and on and on.. These folks languish not because they are lazy but because their management 'blew' it... or the policy 'blew' it or the competition from where ever did the Company in.. These are real feelings and or conditions.

Luny - I left one "market" and ended up in another. I didn't limit my possibilities. If I choose to leave my current situation - I won't limit myself to what I currently do When I started doing what I do now - I had NO knowledge of PLCs, knew very little electrical code(still basically only know the stuff relevant to what I do), and had very little experience using AutoCAD. My job was simple though and I am 100% positive I could take an illiterate bum off the street and teach him what I did/do. I however took things a tad further and looked to improve my knowledge and can now do things better and faster than some of our Engineers. I took the responsibility for my well being - and didn't rely on just "doing my job" - I made myself stand out(or attempted too). I understand some people don't have my drive and motivation - but that is 100% their responsibility - not the gov't or employers. It's time for people to take the responsibility of their own well being upon themselves. Yes, there is a time and place for gov't intervention (welfare and unemployment benefits) but both should be temporary except for very rare occasions.

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic. To base decisions on emotions and feelings is silly because emotions change quickly - reasoned logic does not. I have been in that situation(unemployed by choice) and did what had to be done. Did it suck? hell yes (just don't eat any Kraft cheese snack cubes - well you can now - but 4-5 years ago I wouldn't have) Being laid off isn't necessarily someone's fault directly but it is their fault if they don't do every thing in their power to find employment(whatever level it might be). I hated 3rd shift at a cheese packaging plant cleaning the processing lines and slicers - But I did it because I chose to leave a "bad" employer. But hell - I'd do the same again if necessary. I'll do whatever it takes to provide for myself and my family - I suggest others do the same.

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

CAD,
I don't personally know you but do know you. In the Engineering side of the Companies (before we split them up) there was a person who didn't know jack about either electrical or mechanical engineering from the drafter's or any perspective. She worked in Admin )) was a self taught bookkeeper but wanted more. I hired her because I saw potential. Anyhow, she'd bug me to death about Accounting, Finance, Economics everything... even asked if she could audit the class I taught.. A really impressive person. To get anywhere in my world the crap on the wall means alot..So, I asked her to take some tests to determine skill fields and like that. It turned out there was a greater than 100 percentile in Engineering. So, I talked to the Principal Electrical Engineer and talked him into letting her split her time in his CAD operation... Well split became split in two days... No CAD experience to Designer to multi discipline CAD to designing HVAC, Piping, Electrical and some mechanical... in the span of three years and a bit. From a 10$ an hour bookkeeper to 34$ multi talented Asset. She took classes in the field at university and someday will get her BSEE and go on to get her license I'm sure.. She gave up playing and all that fun stuff to become somebody who maximized their potential (or will). If someone griped about this or that she'd shake her head and say... I did it and you could too... maybe they could and maybe they couldn't. You cannot put in what God left out... all aspects of life must fall into place to enable a person like her to achieve what she achieved. If one piece is missing the entirety cannot make it up elsewhere. It simply cannot. If a child or other issue is introduced into the equation... she'd still be a bookkeeper, I think.

 

[JellyBaby]

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic.

Ah, CADGuy, you have a wife no? Did you use reasoned logic when you decided to last make love to her?

Anyway, you've managed to deflect the discussion from Bush and Congress to your personal story of success. How about the other questions and comments I made. Agree? Disagree? Gimme some of that Old Time reasoned logic.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic.

Ah, CADGuy, you have a wife no? Did you use reasoned logic when you decided to last make love to her?

Anyway, you've managed to deflect the discussion from Bush and Congress to your personal story of success. How about the other questions and comments I made. Agree? Disagree? Gimme some of that Old Time reasoned logic.

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

I addressed your other comments and questions - it's all there - you may just have to decipher it. Come on - You CAN do it but seriously - I don't see what you want me to address. Bush? How can he "create jobs" without making making Corporations happy? And if he does that then you'll blast him for catering to his evil rich corporate buddies. It's just like all the other Bush bashing - people just hate him(admin and Repubs) and don't care about their actual position on the issue - their position is anti-bush - "whatever it takes".
Got something you will take a stand on? If so then we can debate it - otherwise it's just a waste of time.

CkG

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD said:
Oh, and I have come home and faced a wife and an infant after leaving a job with nothing in the works. So don't give me that emotional rhetoric
**************

You have a very positive mind set regarding not only your ability but the market in which you function. You believe in the Current Policy (ies) and that the leadership of the company you work in can and will survive and provide you the positive results of your effort.
BUT! There are many who for whatever reason (other than being lazy) don't have the same 'feeling' or are unable to take the risk, don't have the same talents, less self esteem and on and on.. These folks languish not because they are lazy but because their management 'blew' it... or the policy 'blew' it or the competition from where ever did the Company in.. These are real feelings and or conditions.

Luny - I left one "market" and ended up in another. I didn't limit my possibilities. If I choose to leave my current situation - I won't limit myself to what I currently do When I started doing what I do now - I had NO knowledge of PLCs, knew very little electrical code(still basically only know the stuff relevant to what I do), and had very little experience using AutoCAD. My job was simple though and I am 100% positive I could take an illiterate bum off the street and teach him what I did/do. I however took things a tad further and looked to improve my knowledge and can now do things better and faster than some of our Engineers. I took the responsibility for my well being - and didn't rely on just "doing my job" - I made myself stand out(or attempted too). I understand some people don't have my drive and motivation - but that is 100% their responsibility - not the gov't or employers. It's time for people to take the responsibility of their own well being upon themselves. Yes, there is a time and place for gov't intervention (welfare and unemployment benefits) but both should be temporary except for very rare occasions.

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic. To base decisions on emotions and feelings is silly because emotions change quickly - reasoned logic does not. I have been in that situation(unemployed by choice) and did what had to be done. Did it suck? hell yes (just don't eat any Kraft cheese snack cubes - well you can now - but 4-5 years ago I wouldn't have) Being laid off isn't necessarily someone's fault directly but it is their fault if they don't do every thing in their power to find employment(whatever level it might be). I hated 3rd shift at a cheese packaging plant cleaning the processing lines and slicers - But I did it because I chose to leave a "bad" employer. But hell - I'd do the same again if necessary. I'll do whatever it takes to provide for myself and my family - I suggest others do the same.

CkG

Did you clean the Cheese slicers for $6 hr ???

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic.

Ah, CADGuy, you have a wife no? Did you use reasoned logic when you decided to last make love to her?

Anyway, you've managed to deflect the discussion from Bush and Congress to your personal story of success. How about the other questions and comments I made. Agree? Disagree? Gimme some of that Old Time reasoned logic.

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

I addressed your other comments and questions - it's all there - you may just have to decipher it. Come on - You CAN do it but seriously - I don't see what you want me to address. Bush? How can he "create jobs" without making making Corporations happy? And if he does that then you'll blast him for catering to his evil rich corporate buddies. It's just like all the other Bush bashing - people just hate him(admin and Repubs) and don't care about their actual position on the issue - their position is anti-bush - "whatever it takes".
Got something you will take a stand on? If so then we can debate it - otherwise it's just a waste of time.

CkG

He did make the Corporations "Happy". They thanked him and the American public by shipping the jobs overseas.

 

[JellyBaby]

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

There's no shame in admitting you're a feeling person as well as a thinking one. Emotion enhances, not restricts. Feeling guides, it doesn't control.

I don't see what you want me to address.

I will then ask a specific question.

1) The H-1A, L-1 visa process was designed with the stated notion of supplying IT businesses with foreign workers during shortages. We don't have a shortage of IT workers. We now have a gross oversupply. Why hasn't Congress eliminated it? Why isn't Bush doing the right thing by pushing for this?

 

[Ferocious]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

There's no shame in admitting you're a feeling person as well as a thinking one. Emotion enhances, not restricts. Feeling guides, it doesn't control.

I don't see what you want me to address.

I will then ask a specific question.

1) The H-1A, L-1 visa process was designed with the stated notion of supplying IT businesses with foreign workers during shortages. We don't have a shortage of IT workers. We now have a gross oversupply. Why hasn't Congress eliminated it? Why isn't Bush doing the right thing by pushing for this?

ummm the answer should be obvious.

Corporations want to pay the least possible wages. And it's Bush's main job as President to see that this occurs.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Jelly - I do not lack emotion - that argument just doesn't work on me because I don't use emotion as the basis of my decisions - I use reasoned logic.

Ah, CADGuy, you have a wife no? Did you use reasoned logic when you decided to last make love to her?

Anyway, you've managed to deflect the discussion from Bush and Congress to your personal story of success. How about the other questions and comments I made. Agree? Disagree? Gimme some of that Old Time reasoned logic.

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

I addressed your other comments and questions - it's all there - you may just have to decipher it. Come on - You CAN do it but seriously - I don't see what you want me to address. Bush? How can he "create jobs" without making making Corporations happy? And if he does that then you'll blast him for catering to his evil rich corporate buddies. It's just like all the other Bush bashing - people just hate him(admin and Repubs) and don't care about their actual position on the issue - their position is anti-bush - "whatever it takes".
Got something you will take a stand on? If so then we can debate it - otherwise it's just a waste of time.

CkG

He did make the Corporations "Happy". They thanked him and the American public by shipping the jobs overseas.

Dave..Dave...Dave... Always the Evil corporations...

/ me shakes head

CkG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Yes I do. I must "do the deed" otherwise I will have to sleep on the couch and I don't get a good night's sleep because I don't conform to it's moldings.

There's no shame in admitting you're a feeling person as well as a thinking one. Emotion enhances, not restricts. Feeling guides, it doesn't control.

I don't see what you want me to address.

I will then ask a specific question.

1) The H-1A, L-1 visa process was designed with the stated notion of supplying IT businesses with foreign workers during shortages. We don't have a shortage of IT workers. We now have a gross oversupply. Why hasn't Congress eliminated it? Why isn't Bush doing the right thing by pushing for this?

Is there are reason you don't mention the H-1B? Or was the 'A' a typo since it deals with nursing.

Seems that there is a rumbling in Congress about the L-1 visa too

I'd support any push to do such things. If the talent is here - it should be cultivated.

CkG