4 degrees warming "likely" without CO2 cuts-study

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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Ok... mild correction... whether we have had warming in the last 10 years is based on what chart or report you read.

I saw one study that claims 7 of the 13 warmest years have been in the past decade, but then another that shows 2006 and 1998 has the hottest years, but the next 5-6 hottest occurring some time ago.

There is just so much data from so many sources that it is hard to figure out who is 100% right or wrong.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Here is my problem with studies like this:

Global temps have not gone up at all the last 10 years, I think we have actually got a little bit colder from the late 90s high.

And yet there is not ONE study from before this period that predicted a 10 year long cooling period.

Which makes you wonder how accurate these types of studies are. On top of that you have all the other problems related to GW studies like the outright fraud of that hockey stick graph/equation that got the same results no mater what numbers you inputed into the equation.

Do you know why that is?
 

RU482

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
12,689
3
81
If they want to sell this to me, I need to see maps....detailed, interactive maps.

Show me a world map of where and how the climate will change. Show me a map that depicts where the coastline will be in 2100. something. Get a marketing department.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: ericlp
Makes me wonder why people here are still convinced GW is still a hoax and man has nothing to do with it.

Everyone knows it's warming, however .7 C is well below past natural variation.

Just because someone releases a study saying it will warm 15 degrees in 40 years doesn't mean it will happen. They always make sure the time scales for their calculations are long enough so they have time to come up with an excuse when it ends up increasing only another .7 C (or not at all).

Not to mention it has been an incredibly COLD year. People say "well that's weather, not climate" but around the GLOBE this year has been far colder than average and the last few years averaged out have been outside of projections and much cooler than first thought. So when does this "weather" become "climate" I'm wondering.

No it hasn't been an incredibly cold year. 2009 is currently the fifth warmest year in recorded history. El Nino appears to be contributing to this, but this is also taking place during a period of minimum solar activity which has been pushing temperatures back down.

You're kidding right? There have been recorded record lows all around the globe.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,385
10,694
136
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I know right. A decade is like totally a long time.

Want to talk long term trends? Holocene Maximum. Talk to me about global warming when we've surpassed that.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
The spate of anthropogenic climate change fear mongers is resurgent once again in this forum.

Blinded by their own propaganda, they cannot accept any opinion but that which they have been politically spoon fed. They regurgitate the pablum on demand and then blame all the adults around them for the mush they sit in.

Take a deep breath and repeat after me - the sky is not falling, the sky is not falling, the sky is not falling... :D

A Skeptical Take on Global Warming

A Skeptical Take on Global Warming

Matt Rogers
Founder, President
Commodity Weather Group

BS, Meteorology, Penn State University, 1994, MBA, George Mason University, 2001

MDA EarthSat 1994-2009

Matt?s roles at MDA EarthSat included operational forecasting, Manager of Energy Weather, Deputy Director of Weather, and then Director of Weather. Matt has extensive experience in short-, medium-, and long-range forecasting. He enjoys the challenges of weather forecasting/consulting and loves to develop new products and tools to better the commodity community?s ability to utilize weather information. He regularly speaks to clients and at conferences on various industry-related weather issues.

This Capital Weather Gang blog entry is written with considerable trepidation given the politically-charged atmosphere surrounding human-induced global warming.

I am a meteorologist with a life-long weather fascination. As I'm sure you know, meteorology is an inexact science due to the large number of variables involved in predicting and understanding the weather. I frequently say that weather forecasting is a humbling endeavor, and I have learned to respect its challenges. From this perspective, you might be able to better understand why I wince when hearing pronouncements such as "the science is settled", "the debate is over", or even the "the temperature in the 2050s is projected to be..." I realize that forecasting climate and weather are different, but both involve a large number of moving parts.

There are numerous reasons why I question the consensus view on human-induced climate change covered extensively on this blog by Andrew Freedman. But for this entry, I scaled them down to ten:

(10) Hurricanes: One of the strongest value propositions presented for fighting global warming is to slow tropical cyclone intensity increases. Katrina was cited as a prime example. But the storm only made landfall as a category three (five being strongest) and affected a city built below sea level. Stronger storms have hit North America before, but the Katrina route and the weak levees made this situation much worse. I follow global hurricane activity closely and earlier this summer, we reached a record low. Florida State has a site that tracks global hurricane activity here. Since the 1990s, this activity has been decreasing, which goes against what we were told to expect on a warming planet.

(9) Ice Caps: In 2007, the Northern Hemisphere reached a record low in ice coverage and the Northwest Passage was opened. At that point, we were told melting was occurring faster than expected, and we needed to accelerate our efforts. What you were not told was that the data that triggered this record is only available back to the late 1970s. Prior to that, we did not have the satellite technology to measure areal ice extent. We know the Northwest Passage had been open before. In Antarctica, we had been told that a cooling of the continent was consistent with global climate models until a recent study announced the opposite was true. The lack of information and the inconsistencies do not offer confidence.

(8) El Niño: This feature in the Tropical Pacific Ocean occurs when water temperatures are abnormally warm. Some climate change researchers predicted that global warming would create more and stronger El Niño events like the powerhouse of 1997-98. Indeed in 2006, esteemed climate scientist James Hansen, predicted this. But we are now about to complete an entire decade without a strong El Niño event (three occurred in the 1980s-1990s). So the more recent 2007 IPCC report backtracked from Hansen's prediction, noting that there were too many uncertainties to understand how El Niño will behave with climate change. Recent research speaks to how important El Niño is to climate. In the past two decades, these warm El Niño and opposite cold La Niña events have accentuated the global temperature peaks and valleys highlighting the importance of natural variability and the limitations of the science.

(7) Climate Models: To be blunt, the computer models that policy-makers are using to make key decisions failed to collectively inform us of the flat global land-sea temperatures seen in the 2000s (see more on this in item 5 below). The UN IPCC did offer fair warning of model inadequacies in their 2007 assessment. They mentioned a number of challenges, which is wholly reasonable since countless factors contribute to our global climate system--many of them not fully understood. My belief is that they are over-estimating anthropogenic (human) forcing influences and under-estimating natural variability (like the current cold-phase Pacific Decadal Oscillation and solar cycles). The chaos theory describes why it is far more difficult to project the future than climate scientists may realize (I give them a break here since climate modeling is in its relative infancy). We poor hapless meteorologists learned the chaos theory lesson long ago.

(6) CO2 (Carbon Dioxide): The argument that the air we currently exhale is a bona fide pollutant due to potential impacts on climate change flummoxes me. CO2 is also plant food. Plants release oxygen for us, and we release CO2 for them. Over the summer, CO2 reached almost .04% of our total atmosphere as reported here. Because CO2 is but a sliver of our atmosphere, it is known as a "trace gas." We all agree that it is increasing, but is there a chance that our estimate of its influence on the Greenhouse Effect is overblown given its small atmospheric ratio?

(5) Global Temperatures: As a meteorologist, verification is very important for guiding my work and improving future forecasts. The verification for global warming is struggling. Three of four major datasets that track global estimates show 1998 as the warmest year on record with temperatures flat or falling since then. Even climate change researchers now admit that global temperature has been flat since that peak. As shown above, the CO2 chart continues upwards unabated. If the relationship is as solid as we are told, then why isn't global temperature responding? I'm told by climate change researchers that the current situation is within the bounds of model expectations. However, when I look at the IPCC 2007 AR4 WG1 report, I can see that without major warming in the next 1-2 years, we will fall outside those bounds. This is why I believe James Hansen is predicting a global temperature record in the next two years.

(4) Solar Issue: Look for this issue to get bigger. Our sun is currently becoming very quiet. Not only is the number of sunspots falling dramatically, but the intensity of the sunspots is weakening. The coincident timing of major solar minimums with cooler global temperatures (such as during the Little Ice Age) suggests that maybe the sun is underestimated as a component for influencing climate. The second half of the twentieth century (when we saw lots of warming) was during a major solar maximum period- which is now ending. Total solar irradiance has been steady or sinking similar to our global temperatures over much of this past decade. Indeed, recent research has suggested the solar factor is underestimated (here and here). Perhaps one day, we'll have a different version of James Carville's famous political quote...something like "It's the sun, stupid!"

(3) But what about...? Ultimately after I explain my viewpoint on climate change, I get this question: "But what about all this crazy weather we've been having lately?" As a student of meteorology, we learned about amazing weather events in the past that have not been rivaled in the present. Whether it was the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the 1889 Johnstown Flood, or even the worst tornado outbreak in history (1974), we have and will continue to see crazy weather. Very few statistics are available that correctly show an increase in these "crazy" events.

(2) Silencing Dissent: I believe the climate is always changing. But what percentage of that change is human-induced? Like most, I believe that a more balanced energy supply benefits us politically due to the reduced reliance on foreign sources and benefits us locally due to improved air quality. But several times during debates individuals have told me I should not question the "settled science" due to the moral imperative of "saving the planet". As with a religious debate, I'm told that my disagreement means I do not "care enough" and even if correct, I should not question the science. This frightens me.

(1) Pullback: Does climate change hysteria represent another bubble waiting to burst? From the perspective of the alarmism and the saturation of the message, the answer could be yes. I believe that when our science or economic experts tend to be incorrect, it usually involves predictions that have underperformed expectations (Y2K, SARS, oil supply, etc). Can we think of any other expert-given, consensus-based, long-term predictions that have verified correctly? Not one comes to mind. I believe that predictions of human-caused climate change will continue to be overdone, and we'll discover that natural factors are equally and sometimes even more important.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Here is my problem with studies like this:

Global temps have not gone up at all the last 10 years, I think we have actually got a little bit colder from the late 90s high.

And yet there is not ONE study from before this period that predicted a 10 year long cooling period.

Which makes you wonder how accurate these types of studies are. On top of that you have all the other problems related to GW studies like the outright fraud of that hockey stick graph/equation that got the same results no mater what numbers you inputed into the equation.

The Dog Ate Global Warming - cato.org Apparently the raw data they used to start this alarmism has disappeared..... right...

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: ericlp
Makes me wonder why people here are still convinced GW is still a hoax and man has nothing to do with it.

Everyone knows it's warming, however .7 C is well below past natural variation.

Just because someone releases a study saying it will warm 15 degrees in 40 years doesn't mean it will happen. They always make sure the time scales for their calculations are long enough so they have time to come up with an excuse when it ends up increasing only another .7 C (or not at all).

Not to mention it has been an incredibly COLD year. People say "well that's weather, not climate" but around the GLOBE this year has been far colder than average and the last few years averaged out have been outside of projections and much cooler than first thought. So when does this "weather" become "climate" I'm wondering.

No it hasn't been an incredibly cold year. 2009 is currently the fifth warmest year in recorded history. El Nino appears to be contributing to this, but this is also taking place during a period of minimum solar activity which has been pushing temperatures back down.

You're kidding right? There have been recorded record lows all around the globe.

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: ericlp
Makes me wonder why people here are still convinced GW is still a hoax and man has nothing to do with it.

Everyone knows it's warming, however .7 C is well below past natural variation.

Just because someone releases a study saying it will warm 15 degrees in 40 years doesn't mean it will happen. They always make sure the time scales for their calculations are long enough so they have time to come up with an excuse when it ends up increasing only another .7 C (or not at all).

Not to mention it has been an incredibly COLD year. People say "well that's weather, not climate" but around the GLOBE this year has been far colder than average and the last few years averaged out have been outside of projections and much cooler than first thought. So when does this "weather" become "climate" I'm wondering.

No it hasn't been an incredibly cold year. 2009 is currently the fifth warmest year in recorded history. El Nino appears to be contributing to this, but this is also taking place during a period of minimum solar activity which has been pushing temperatures back down.

You're kidding right? There have been recorded record lows all around the globe.

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Originally posted by: PJABBER
The spate of anthropogenic climate change fear mongers is resurgent once again in this forum.

Blinded by their own propaganda, they cannot accept any opinion but that which they have been politically spoon fed. They regurgitate the pablum on demand and then blame all the adults around them for the mush they sit in.

Take a deep breath and repeat after me - the sky is not falling, the sky is not falling, the sky is not falling... :D

A Skeptical Take on Global Warming

A Skeptical Take on Global Warming

Matt Rogers
Founder, President
Commodity Weather Group

BS, Meteorology, Penn State University, 1994, MBA, George Mason University, 2001

MDA EarthSat 1994-2009

Matt?s roles at MDA EarthSat included operational forecasting, Manager of Energy Weather, Deputy Director of Weather, and then Director of Weather. Matt has extensive experience in short-, medium-, and long-range forecasting. He enjoys the challenges of weather forecasting/consulting and loves to develop new products and tools to better the commodity community?s ability to utilize weather information. He regularly speaks to clients and at conferences on various industry-related weather issues.

This Capital Weather Gang blog entry is written with considerable trepidation given the politically-charged atmosphere surrounding human-induced global warming.

I am a meteorologist with a life-long weather fascination. As I'm sure you know, meteorology is an inexact science due to the large number of variables involved in predicting and understanding the weather. I frequently say that weather forecasting is a humbling endeavor, and I have learned to respect its challenges. From this perspective, you might be able to better understand why I wince when hearing pronouncements such as "the science is settled", "the debate is over", or even the "the temperature in the 2050s is projected to be..." I realize that forecasting climate and weather are different, but both involve a large number of moving parts.

There are numerous reasons why I question the consensus view on human-induced climate change covered extensively on this blog by Andrew Freedman. But for this entry, I scaled them down to ten:

(10) Hurricanes: One of the strongest value propositions presented for fighting global warming is to slow tropical cyclone intensity increases. Katrina was cited as a prime example. But the storm only made landfall as a category three (five being strongest) and affected a city built below sea level. Stronger storms have hit North America before, but the Katrina route and the weak levees made this situation much worse. I follow global hurricane activity closely and earlier this summer, we reached a record low. Florida State has a site that tracks global hurricane activity here. Since the 1990s, this activity has been decreasing, which goes against what we were told to expect on a warming planet.

On the hurricane activity

This does not contradict global warming. As the blogger points out, global warming is only expected to increase cyclonic activity a few percent. That effect has been blown out of the water by the strong La Nina of the last couple of years.

(9) Ice Caps: In 2007, the Northern Hemisphere reached a record low in ice coverage and the Northwest Passage was opened. At that point, we were told melting was occurring faster than expected, and we needed to accelerate our efforts. What you were not told was that the data that triggered this record is only available back to the late 1970s. Prior to that, we did not have the satellite technology to measure areal ice extent. We know the Northwest Passage had been open before. In Antarctica, we had been told that a cooling of the continent was consistent with global climate models until a recent study announced the opposite was true. The lack of information and the inconsistencies do not offer confidence.

This is meaningless. The ice caps have been losing up to 30 feet of thickness per year Link. It's an accelerating phenomena that's obvious to anyone watching.

"The [2000 year] cooling trend was reversed during the 20th century, with four of the five warmest decades of our 2000-year-long reconstruction occurring between 1950 and 2000."

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/...nt/short/325/5945/1236


(8) El Niño: This feature in the Tropical Pacific Ocean occurs when water temperatures are abnormally warm. Some climate change researchers predicted that global warming would create more and stronger El Niño events like the powerhouse of 1997-98. Indeed in 2006, esteemed climate scientist James Hansen, predicted this. But we are now about to complete an entire decade without a strong El Niño event (three occurred in the 1980s-1990s). So the more recent 2007 IPCC report backtracked from Hansen's prediction, noting that there were too many uncertainties to understand how El Niño will behave with climate change. Recent research speaks to how important El Niño is to climate. In the past two decades, these warm El Niño and opposite cold La Niña events have accentuated the global temperature peaks and valleys highlighting the importance of natural variability and the limitations of the science.

This is just drawing a bad conclusion from mostly good facts. It's true that we haven't had an El Nino like 1998's El Nino since. But there are lots of effects and consequences of global warming that are still being studied and worked on. That's different from claiming that the reality of global warming is actually a scientific controversy. It's not.


(7) Climate Models: To be blunt, the computer models that policy-makers are using to make key decisions failed to collectively inform us of the flat global land-sea temperatures seen in the 2000s (see more on this in item 5 below). The UN IPCC did offer fair warning of model inadequacies in their 2007 assessment. They mentioned a number of challenges, which is wholly reasonable since countless factors contribute to our global climate system--many of them not fully understood. My belief is that they are over-estimating anthropogenic (human) forcing influences and under-estimating natural variability (like the current cold-phase Pacific Decadal Oscillation and solar cycles). The chaos theory describes why it is far more difficult to project the future than climate scientists may realize (I give them a break here since climate modeling is in its relative infancy). We poor hapless meteorologists learned the chaos theory lesson long ago.

Flat temperatures over the course of a decade mean very little when you're talking about long term global trends. Especially when that decade is bookended by the strongest El Nino in recorded history at the beginning and a pretty strong La Nina cooling event at the end. Global temperatures may have been "flat" for the last decade, but they remain far higher than they were for the rest of the century.


(6) CO2 (Carbon Dioxide): The argument that the air we currently exhale is a bona fide pollutant due to potential impacts on climate change flummoxes me. CO2 is also plant food. Plants release oxygen for us, and we release CO2 for them. Over the summer, CO2 reached almost .04% of our total atmosphere as reported here. Because CO2 is but a sliver of our atmosphere, it is known as a "trace gas." We all agree that it is increasing, but is there a chance that our estimate of its influence on the Greenhouse Effect is overblown given its small atmospheric ratio?

No, this is well understood. We have a major impact in the amount of CO2 released.

Carbon dioxide (CO2) occurs naturally in our atmosphere at a very low concentration. The concentration of this gas in air has remained fairly static for thousands of years, and natural inputs of CO2 (for example from the respiration of animals, the decomposition of biological material and forest fires) are balanced by natural sinks (the photosynthesis of plants and phytoplankton, and absorption by seawater). As a result of this balance, the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide remained between 260 and 280 parts per million for the 10,000 years between the start of the present interglacial period (the Holocene) and the start of the industrial era two hundred years ago. Since then, of course, it has increased dramatically and is now about 383 parts per million (ppm) and continuing to rise.

Link


(5) Global Temperatures: As a meteorologist, verification is very important for guiding my work and improving future forecasts. The verification for global warming is struggling. Three of four major datasets that track global estimates show 1998 as the warmest year on record with temperatures flat or falling since then. Even climate change researchers now admit that global temperature has been flat since that peak. As shown above, the CO2 chart continues upwards unabated. If the relationship is as solid as we are told, then why isn't global temperature responding? I'm told by climate change researchers that the current situation is within the bounds of model expectations. However, when I look at the IPCC 2007 AR4 WG1 report, I can see that without major warming in the next 1-2 years, we will fall outside those bounds. This is why I believe James Hansen is predicting a global temperature record in the next two years.

The 1998 issue has already been discussed. 1998 was a huge spike in global temperature, and honestly, if that rate of warming had occurred Florida would be underwater by now.


(4) Solar Issue: Look for this issue to get bigger. Our sun is currently becoming very quiet. Not only is the number of sunspots falling dramatically, but the intensity of the sunspots is weakening. The coincident timing of major solar minimums with cooler global temperatures (such as during the Little Ice Age) suggests that maybe the sun is underestimated as a component for influencing climate. The second half of the twentieth century (when we saw lots of warming) was during a major solar maximum period- which is now ending. Total solar irradiance has been steady or sinking similar to our global temperatures over much of this past decade. Indeed, recent research has suggested the solar factor is underestimated (here and here). Perhaps one day, we'll have a different version of James Carville's famous political quote...something like "It's the sun, stupid!"

No, it's not the sun, stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sf_UIQYc20
Quick, 5 minute video


(3) But what about...? Ultimately after I explain my viewpoint on climate change, I get this question: "But what about all this crazy weather we've been having lately?" As a student of meteorology, we learned about amazing weather events in the past that have not been rivaled in the present. Whether it was the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the 1889 Johnstown Flood, or even the worst tornado outbreak in history (1974), we have and will continue to see crazy weather. Very few statistics are available that correctly show an increase in these "crazy" events.

This is completely irrelevant. It's a strawman since no one is claiming that major weather events never happened before.


(2) Silencing Dissent: I believe the climate is always changing. But what percentage of that change is human-induced? Like most, I believe that a more balanced energy supply benefits us politically due to the reduced reliance on foreign sources and benefits us locally due to improved air quality. But several times during debates individuals have told me I should not question the "settled science" due to the moral imperative of "saving the planet". As with a religious debate, I'm told that my disagreement means I do not "care enough" and even if correct, I should not question the science. This frightens me.

What garbage. You should not question the settled science unless you are bringing new and better science to the table to increase our understanding.

(1) Pullback: Does climate change hysteria represent another bubble waiting to burst? From the perspective of the alarmism and the saturation of the message, the answer could be yes. I believe that when our science or economic experts tend to be incorrect, it usually involves predictions that have underperformed expectations (Y2K, SARS, oil supply, etc). Can we think of any other expert-given, consensus-based, long-term predictions that have verified correctly? Not one comes to mind. I believe that predictions of human-caused climate change will continue to be overdone, and we'll discover that natural factors are equally and sometimes even more important.

This is not something that scientists are predicting for the future, this is something that is happening now. Global temperatures remain among the highest recorded in the last century.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,958
3,948
136
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.

That's actually combined ocean and land temperature. For the US, much of the winter was at or below normal, which is probably what Doc Savage is referring to.

Furthermore, I call shens on them saying they have reliable, widespread ocean surface data from 1880. Quality data goes back a few decades at best, so having this year be the third highest on record doesn't strike much fear in me. What's 30-40 years in climactic terms? That doesn't even count as a blip in the timescales we're talking about. Even if we're VERY generous and take ocean data from the 1800s at face value, that's still barely a blip.

In any case we're still well below the Holocene Maximum, and humanity didn't cause or die out from that.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.

That's actually combined ocean and land temperature. For the US, much of the winter was at or below normal, which is probably what Doc Savage is referring to.

Furthermore, I call shens on them saying they have reliable, widespread ocean surface data from 1880. Quality data goes back a few decades at best, so having this year be the third highest on record doesn't strike much fear in me. What's 30-40 years in climactic terms? That doesn't even count as a blip in the timescales we're talking about. Even if we're VERY generous and take ocean data from the 1800s at face value, that's still barely a blip.

In any case we're still well below the Holocene Maximum, and humanity didn't cause or die out from that.

Why would anyone be talking about US temperatures in a discussion of global warming? I didn't know that we based our readings for the world on 16% of its surface.

The rest of your post is dismissal of inconvenient evidence without cause, along with the strawman of the Holocene Maximum.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,958
3,948
136
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The rest of your post is dismissal of inconvenient evidence without cause, along with the strawman of the Holocene Maximum.

I'm not dismissing inconvenient evidence, because there's no inconvenient evidence to dismiss. That was my point. If you have a link to global sea surface temperatures from 1880 I would love to see it. Seriously. I'm sure pro-AGW types would love it too since they'd have something other than guesses or extrapolation to base their models on.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
106
the eco-KOOK religion is based on blaming humans. Expect stories like this once a month. All part of the eco-KOOK drum beat to get their carbon-con revenue flowing.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Originally posted by: dainthomas

Obviously paid off by Chevron.

Originally posted by: bfdd
The Dog Ate Global Warming - cato.org Apparently the raw data they used to start this alarmism has disappeared..... right...

Probably paid off by BP. Or Exxon. Maybe both. That's the only explanation.

:p

I like how you're the only one who said anything about it and you were joking around.

How can you trust the science when NO ONE has the raw data anymore that the original conclusions were based on?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The rest of your post is dismissal of inconvenient evidence without cause, along with the strawman of the Holocene Maximum.

I'm not dismissing inconvenient evidence, because there's no inconvenient evidence to dismiss. That was my point. If you have a link to global sea surface temperatures from 1880 I would love to see it. Seriously. I'm sure pro-AGW types would love it too since they'd have something other than guesses or extrapolation to base their models on.

Uhmm, yes there is.

The data isn't perfect from 1880 onwards, but that's the generally accepted point at which it became high quality enough to use. What did you think they were doing, and why did you think they chose that date?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: bfdd
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: ericlp
Makes me wonder why people here are still convinced GW is still a hoax and man has nothing to do with it.

Everyone knows it's warming, however .7 C is well below past natural variation.

Just because someone releases a study saying it will warm 15 degrees in 40 years doesn't mean it will happen. They always make sure the time scales for their calculations are long enough so they have time to come up with an excuse when it ends up increasing only another .7 C (or not at all).

Not to mention it has been an incredibly COLD year. People say "well that's weather, not climate" but around the GLOBE this year has been far colder than average and the last few years averaged out have been outside of projections and much cooler than first thought. So when does this "weather" become "climate" I'm wondering.

No it hasn't been an incredibly cold year. 2009 is currently the fifth warmest year in recorded history. El Nino appears to be contributing to this, but this is also taking place during a period of minimum solar activity which has been pushing temperatures back down.

You're kidding right? There have been recorded record lows all around the globe.

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?

bfdd is confused. Apparently he thinks record lows are the same thing as low average global temperatures. And he doesn't understand that EVERY year has record lows (and highs) SOMEWHERE on the globe, regardless of the global average temperature.
 

imported_inspire

Senior member
Jun 29, 2006
986
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.

I disagree,; I think you guys are confusing terminology here. Global temperature measurements are not as straightforward as you seem to think. Let me try to explain this.

You wake up, check the weather, and the weatherman says, 'Today is 13 degrees hotter than normal' - what does that mean? Does that mean it's uncharacteristically hot today? What about the high? What is the norm?

He could be referring to the average low for September 29 over the past 50 years - or maybe 100 years. He could be referring to the average high. He could be referring to the temperature at 3pm on days in September when it's not raining. Is he talking about where you live, or the other side of of the city near the lake?

On a broader scale, the complications increase. Are the measurements accurately wieghted to account for geographic location rather than instrument density? Are the recorded temperatures from the ocean surface or the land surface? Or maybe from the atmosphere? Have the measurements been adjusted for altitude, urban expansion, etc.

Any analysis wherein these factors are considered is a study - not something so straightforward that could be assessed using an Excel scatterplot.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,238
55,791
136
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.

I disagree,; I think you guys are confusing terminology here. Global temperature measurements are not as straightforward as you seem to think. Let me try to explain this.

You wake up, check the weather, and the weatherman says, 'Today is 13 degrees hotter than normal' - what does that mean? Does that mean it's uncharacteristically hot today? What about the high? What is the norm?

He could be referring to the average low for September 29 over the past 50 years - or maybe 100 years. He could be referring to the average high. He could be referring to the temperature at 3pm on days in September when it's not raining. Is he talking about where you live, or the other side of of the city near the lake?

On a broader scale, the complications increase. Are the measurements accurately wieghted to account for geographic location rather than instrument density? Are the recorded temperatures from the ocean surface or the land surface? Or maybe from the atmosphere? Have the measurements been adjusted for altitude, urban expansion, etc.

Any analysis wherein these factors are considered is a study - not something so straightforward that could be assessed using an Excel scatterplot.

No, there really isn't any confusion. Pretty much all of that is accounted for by NOAA. It's a preliminary finding that is refined over time into their actual recorded values for the time period, but it's still the best data available right now.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,958
3,948
136
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The rest of your post is dismissal of inconvenient evidence without cause, along with the strawman of the Holocene Maximum.

I'm not dismissing inconvenient evidence, because there's no inconvenient evidence to dismiss. That was my point. If you have a link to global sea surface temperatures from 1880 I would love to see it. Seriously. I'm sure pro-AGW types would love it too since they'd have something other than guesses or extrapolation to base their models on.

Uhmm, yes there is.

The data isn't perfect from 1880 onwards, but that's the generally accepted point at which it became high quality enough to use. What did you think they were doing, and why did you think they chose that date?

Thanks for the link.

The uncertainty in annual measurements of the global average temperature (95% range) is estimated to be ~0.05°C since 1950 and as much as ~0.15°C in the earliest portions of the instrumental record.

So the admitted increase during the last 130 years is .7 C, and we have a potential uncertainty of .2 C. Then we're supposed to be confident in their prediction that in only the next 40 years we'll see an increase of 4 full degrees?

Early records also have a substantial uncertainty driven by systematic concerns over the accuracy of sea surface temperature measurements

No kidding. Is some guy measuring out of a bucket supposed to be as accurate as infrared satellites?

A 2006 paper analyzed a subset of U.S. surface stations, 366 stations, and found that 95% displayed a warming trend after land use/land cover (LULC) changes. The authors stated "this does not necessarily imply that the LULC changes are the causative factor."[29] Another study [30] has documented examples of well and poorly sited monitoring stations in the United States, including ones near buildings, roadways, and air conditioning exhausts.

I've always wondered how accurate the supposed corrections for urban heat island effect really are. So much of this stuff is just guesswork.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't switch from fossil fuels. There are many reasons we should, including air and water pollution. But lets not base it on these apocalyptic computer models warning of an imminent disaster that never quite seems to materialize.

 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy

No, I'm not kidding. Do you have some data from a respectable source that says 2009 has been colder than average?
No way 2009 is 5th warmest on record. Article doesn't link to study. I call shens.

Of course you do. It's information that is inconvenient to your world view. It's not a study, it's straight temperature measurement from NOAA, and the report was easy to find on their website.

I disagree,; I think you guys are confusing terminology here. Global temperature measurements are not as straightforward as you seem to think. Let me try to explain this.

You wake up, check the weather, and the weatherman says, 'Today is 13 degrees hotter than normal' - what does that mean? Does that mean it's uncharacteristically hot today? What about the high? What is the norm?

He could be referring to the average low for September 29 over the past 50 years - or maybe 100 years. He could be referring to the average high. He could be referring to the temperature at 3pm on days in September when it's not raining. Is he talking about where you live, or the other side of of the city near the lake?

On a broader scale, the complications increase. Are the measurements accurately wieghted to account for geographic location rather than instrument density? Are the recorded temperatures from the ocean surface or the land surface? Or maybe from the atmosphere? Have the measurements been adjusted for altitude, urban expansion, etc.

Any analysis wherein these factors are considered is a study - not something so straightforward that could be assessed using an Excel scatterplot.

No, there really isn't any confusion. Pretty much all of that is accounted for by NOAA. It's a preliminary finding that is refined over time into their actual recorded values for the time period, but it's still the best data available right now.

Only a graduate student in political "science" can have such faith in uncertainty. :D
 

imported_inspire

Senior member
Jun 29, 2006
986
0
0
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The rest of your post is dismissal of inconvenient evidence without cause, along with the strawman of the Holocene Maximum.

I'm not dismissing inconvenient evidence, because there's no inconvenient evidence to dismiss. That was my point. If you have a link to global sea surface temperatures from 1880 I would love to see it. Seriously. I'm sure pro-AGW types would love it too since they'd have something other than guesses or extrapolation to base their models on.

Uhmm, yes there is.

The data isn't perfect from 1880 onwards, but that's the generally accepted point at which it became high quality enough to use. What did you think they were doing, and why did you think they chose that date?

Thanks for the link.

The uncertainty in annual measurements of the global average temperature (95% range) is estimated to be ~0.05°C since 1950 and as much as ~0.15°C in the earliest portions of the instrumental record.

So the admitted increase during the last 130 years is .7 C, and we have a potential uncertainty of .2 C. Then we're supposed to be confident in their prediction that in only the next 40 years we'll see an increase of 4 full degrees?

Early records also have a substantial uncertainty driven by systematic concerns over the accuracy of sea surface temperature measurements

No kidding. Is some guy measuring out of a bucket supposed to be as accurate as infrared satellites?

A 2006 paper analyzed a subset of U.S. surface stations, 366 stations, and found that 95% displayed a warming trend after land use/land cover (LULC) changes. The authors stated "this does not necessarily imply that the LULC changes are the causative factor."[29] Another study [30] has documented examples of well and poorly sited monitoring stations in the United States, including ones near buildings, roadways, and air conditioning exhausts.

I've always wondered how accurate the supposed corrections for urban heat island effect really are. So much of this stuff is just guesswork.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't switch from fossil fuels. There are many reasons we should, including air and water pollution. But lets not base it on these apocalyptic computer models warning of an imminent disaster that never quite seems to materialize.

Frequently in modelling, including a factor, like UHI effects is done long before a causal relationship is proven. Typical confirmatory tests for significance set the type I error at 0.05, but in model selection, people frequently use 0.15 as an entrance criteria. Thus, it would be expected that UHI effects would still be strongly considered for inclusion into any modelling, even without a causal link.

EDIT: I wasn't very clear - many climate models are frequently criticized for not including UHI effects. I confess I'm somewhat removed from the particulars of that specific debate, but thought I'd chip in.