<< If gun control is bad why do we here in Canada have 10X less gun crime than the US per capita. >>
desy,
Your number is probably wrong, but don't worry. At the rate crime is increasing in Canada, while dropping in the US, you'll catch up.
<< If you carry a gun, and you get pissed off at someone, you may in a fit of rage use that gun. >>
DaBoneHead,
Another fallacious assumption. The instances of this actually happening represent less than 1% of the legal gun owning population. This is less than illegal use by uniformed police officers. You have provided yet another example of reacting with emotions instead of facts.
Based on reality, logic, analysis, and FACTS, the gun-grabbers lose every time.
Russ, NCNE
Leave it to Russ to avoid pointing out that crime is decreasing EVERYWHERE in the US, not just in areas where carry laws are enacted. The crime rate always declines during economic booms: more people are working means less people on the streets to do crimes. It is like those who point out that the 55mph speed limit results in lower traffic fatality rates, when in reality it was mandatory seat belt laws and safer car construction.
Well actually violent crime is decreasing in Canada too It peaked in 90 and has been at a steady drop since. Property crimes are going up though. 1994 stats Canada reports for a population of 30 million people there are 975 suicides by firearms 196 homicides with firearms and 38 gun accidents.
Do those numbers appear wrong to you? are you saying there are only 2000 homocides with guns in the US per year? I don't think so. . the FACTS speak for themselves.. .
So please answer my questions, why do you think there is such a diff if some sort of gun control doesn't matter? I'm a gun owner I want to know. I would prefer if we didn't end up with gun laws like Britain and Australia. We are getting stupid bill C-68 cause one nut in Quebec killed 10 women at the Univeristy there over 10 yrs ago. They came up with an incredibly unworkable gun registry. I want to know how I can lobby my legislators to come up with something better?
They are ignoring the fact that guns only accounted for 1/3 of total homicides that you are 20X more likely to die in a car crash. That they hired over 300 burocratic paper pushers in Ottawa to process the registry rather than hire 300 more police officers. Its politically easier to create BS than tackle the real issues. So what do you propose legitimate gun owners can do to appease public concern with reality.
Do those numbers appear wrong to you? are you saying there are only 2000 homocides with guns in the US per year? I don't think so. . the FACTS speak for themselves.. .
So please answer my questions, why do you think there is such a diff if some sort of gun control doesn't matter? I'm a gun owner I want to know. I would prefer if we didn't end up with gun laws like Britain and Australia. We are getting stupid bill C-68 cause one nut in Quebec killed 10 women at the Univeristy there over 10 yrs ago. They came up with an incredibly unworkable gun registry. I want to know how I can lobby my legislators to come up with something better?
They are ignoring the fact that guns only accounted for 1/3 of total homicides that you are 20X more likely to die in a car crash. That they hired over 300 burocratic paper pushers in Ottawa to process the registry rather than hire 300 more police officers. Its politically easier to create BS than tackle the real issues. So what do you propose legitimate gun owners can do to appease public concern with reality.
Typing,
<< Leave it to Russ to avoid pointing out that crime is decreasing EVERYWHERE in the US, not just in areas where carry laws are enacted. >>
It has been decreasing at a HIGHER rate, and over a LONGER period in states with CC laws.
<< The crime rate always declines during economic booms >>
Since apparently, you didn't bother to read through the thread, I'll repeat what I said to Moonbeam a few posts back:
<< Ding, ding. Wrong. This is another fallacy not supported by historical fact. In the 1960's when the economy was booming, crime increased. In the 1930's, in the depths of the Great Depression, crime dropped dramatically from the previous "roaring twenties" decade.
There are many factors involved in the ebb and flow of crime, but the liberal economic "excuse" is not one of them. >>
Russ, NCNE
<< Leave it to Russ to avoid pointing out that crime is decreasing EVERYWHERE in the US, not just in areas where carry laws are enacted. >>
It has been decreasing at a HIGHER rate, and over a LONGER period in states with CC laws.
<< The crime rate always declines during economic booms >>
Since apparently, you didn't bother to read through the thread, I'll repeat what I said to Moonbeam a few posts back:
<< Ding, ding. Wrong. This is another fallacy not supported by historical fact. In the 1960's when the economy was booming, crime increased. In the 1930's, in the depths of the Great Depression, crime dropped dramatically from the previous "roaring twenties" decade.
There are many factors involved in the ebb and flow of crime, but the liberal economic "excuse" is not one of them. >>
Russ, NCNE
DaBoneHead:
"Incidents of road-rage" with firearms don't even occur weekly, let alone daily; But thanks to the media's prevailing attitudes a gang-related inner city "drive-by" shooting can now get covered as a road-rage incident, another "kids with guns" story, or a "tragic victim of gun proliferation" epic, depending on which message they're promoting that day . . .
Better check your "source" again - Pennsylvania has a "shall issue" concealed-carry permit system that's been in effect for about 20 years - and I've had a CCW permit here for the last 15.
Over half the States now have "Shall-Issue" CCW permit systems now, which stipulate that "the State must show a compelling reason why a permit should NOT be issued (within a reasonable time period)"; as opposed to "Needs-based" systems which force the individual to try to convince an un-elected beurocracy that they can be trusted . . . usually resulting in a "Denial", unless, of course, you are well-connected or affluent.
This, despite the fact that CCW holders are statistically even more law-abiding than the average gun owner, who just happen to be more law-abiding than the average population at large.
You are correct on "open carry" in PA - subject to the same restrictions that affect ALL gun owners: You may not carry a firearm on Federal property, in schools, courtrooms, or Post Offices unless you are law enforcement personnel with weapons certification.
PA's Firearms laws specifically allow numerous circumstances where having an unloaded firearm in a vehicle is not a violation - But designating firearms carried in a vehicle as "concealed" (even if they are in plain sight) was meant to provide a legal advantage to Law Enforcement Officers (LEO's) performing a traffic stop - statistically, one of the most dangerous aspects of their job. The legislature (with input from law enforcement agencies) assumes that the LEO on the scene is in the best position to determine if an actual violation of the "spirit" of the law has occured.
This means that an individual travelling in a pick-up truck with a rifle in a gun rack on the back window (and not in transit to a target range, gunsmith or gun shop, or to engage in hunting) is technically in violation of the law. But the cop that stops him may readily determine that the driver has no criminal intent - the public good is not in danger, nor is the public served by citing the individual.
And be careful - If you have a problem with that scenario, what you're saying is that you don't trust the judgement of someone duly authorised by law to apply deadly force on your behalf.
***************************************************
The Texas legislature, with the support of almost 70% of the state population, sent a bill for CCW licensing to former Gov. Ann Richards (George W. Bush's predecessor) after the Luby's Restaurant Massacre, and she vetoed it. Texas citizens then approved a non-binding resolution for a CCW system, which she stated she would never allow while she was Governor. Big mistake. She ruefully credited that position as a major cause for her defeat by Bush.
BTW - Texas law has ALWAYS allowed transport of firearms in a vehicle . . .
****************************************************
Over 175,000 legally owned fully-automatic firearms are possessed by private citizens in the US. Only one has ever been involved in the commission of a crime - An illegal transfer performed by it's owner, a former cop.
The AK-47's and M-16 used in the Beverly Hills bank robbery were fully-automatic firearms illegally imported (i.e. - smuggled, like drugs) into the US.
"Incidents of road-rage" with firearms don't even occur weekly, let alone daily; But thanks to the media's prevailing attitudes a gang-related inner city "drive-by" shooting can now get covered as a road-rage incident, another "kids with guns" story, or a "tragic victim of gun proliferation" epic, depending on which message they're promoting that day . . .
Better check your "source" again - Pennsylvania has a "shall issue" concealed-carry permit system that's been in effect for about 20 years - and I've had a CCW permit here for the last 15.
Over half the States now have "Shall-Issue" CCW permit systems now, which stipulate that "the State must show a compelling reason why a permit should NOT be issued (within a reasonable time period)"; as opposed to "Needs-based" systems which force the individual to try to convince an un-elected beurocracy that they can be trusted . . . usually resulting in a "Denial", unless, of course, you are well-connected or affluent.
This, despite the fact that CCW holders are statistically even more law-abiding than the average gun owner, who just happen to be more law-abiding than the average population at large.
You are correct on "open carry" in PA - subject to the same restrictions that affect ALL gun owners: You may not carry a firearm on Federal property, in schools, courtrooms, or Post Offices unless you are law enforcement personnel with weapons certification.
PA's Firearms laws specifically allow numerous circumstances where having an unloaded firearm in a vehicle is not a violation - But designating firearms carried in a vehicle as "concealed" (even if they are in plain sight) was meant to provide a legal advantage to Law Enforcement Officers (LEO's) performing a traffic stop - statistically, one of the most dangerous aspects of their job. The legislature (with input from law enforcement agencies) assumes that the LEO on the scene is in the best position to determine if an actual violation of the "spirit" of the law has occured.
This means that an individual travelling in a pick-up truck with a rifle in a gun rack on the back window (and not in transit to a target range, gunsmith or gun shop, or to engage in hunting) is technically in violation of the law. But the cop that stops him may readily determine that the driver has no criminal intent - the public good is not in danger, nor is the public served by citing the individual.
And be careful - If you have a problem with that scenario, what you're saying is that you don't trust the judgement of someone duly authorised by law to apply deadly force on your behalf.
***************************************************
The Texas legislature, with the support of almost 70% of the state population, sent a bill for CCW licensing to former Gov. Ann Richards (George W. Bush's predecessor) after the Luby's Restaurant Massacre, and she vetoed it. Texas citizens then approved a non-binding resolution for a CCW system, which she stated she would never allow while she was Governor. Big mistake. She ruefully credited that position as a major cause for her defeat by Bush.
BTW - Texas law has ALWAYS allowed transport of firearms in a vehicle . . .
****************************************************
Over 175,000 legally owned fully-automatic firearms are possessed by private citizens in the US. Only one has ever been involved in the commission of a crime - An illegal transfer performed by it's owner, a former cop.
The AK-47's and M-16 used in the Beverly Hills bank robbery were fully-automatic firearms illegally imported (i.e. - smuggled, like drugs) into the US.
This is FUN! Just reading this post! See the Little Liberals squirm when faced by truth!
Both Bush and Gore dare not touch so hot a topic.....The NRA hasn't even endorsed Bush...yet!
Tripleshot
You are rather new to these Forums. EVERY topic you chose has been discussed ad nausem here. By now, I would have though you Liberals at the very least, could come up with something against Republicans that is new. Just one!
Both Bush and Gore dare not touch so hot a topic.....The NRA hasn't even endorsed Bush...yet!
Tripleshot
You are rather new to these Forums. EVERY topic you chose has been discussed ad nausem here. By now, I would have though you Liberals at the very least, could come up with something against Republicans that is new. Just one!
My vote go's to RUSS for President!
Tripleshot everytime I see a topic that you post you get hammered! I feel for you dude. Dont throw in your Guns to these guys!!!
Grin.....
Tripleshot everytime I see a topic that you post you get hammered! I feel for you dude. Dont throw in your Guns to these guys!!!
Grin.....
"The FBI began collecting crime data nationwide in 1930, but never before has there been such a prolonged period of declining
crime, said Mary Victoria Pyne of the bureau's Uniform Crime Reporting program.
Law enforcement experts credited a variety of factors, including a booming economy and declining unemployment, greater
attention to community-based policing, more prison beds and tougher sentencing in some areas through measures such as
California's "three strikes" law.
The bigest drops are in cities like LA, no hiddy guns there. Gun advocates are gonna quote gun advocate favorable statistics. The above carefully chosen 'facts' clearly demonstrate that Russ is wrong. Just in case, though, I'm keeping my eye on my rich neighbors. Maybe it is them doing all the crime.
crime, said Mary Victoria Pyne of the bureau's Uniform Crime Reporting program.
Law enforcement experts credited a variety of factors, including a booming economy and declining unemployment, greater
attention to community-based policing, more prison beds and tougher sentencing in some areas through measures such as
California's "three strikes" law.
The bigest drops are in cities like LA, no hiddy guns there. Gun advocates are gonna quote gun advocate favorable statistics. The above carefully chosen 'facts' clearly demonstrate that Russ is wrong.
Just in case, though, I'm keeping my eye on my rich neighbors. Maybe it is them doing all the crime.Moonbeam Without the NRA, the "3 Strikes" law probably would not have passed. They [ME!] lobbied hard and spent a TON of money via advertising FOR that law. The NRA spends more money on crime prevention than any other organisation in the US!
Gore wants registration of ALL handguns, followed by confiscation of course.
Gore wants registration of ALL handguns, followed by confiscation of course.
thebestMAX
Diamond Member
- Sep 14, 2000
- 7,519
- 140
- 106
Russ, Tominator-
MOONBEAM lives in San Francisco and her name is also well suited to her.
Lets start a new thread on guns and carry laws. Would do it myself but I just seem to get ignored when WE are right.
Hey, BONEHEAD
Your posts are usually pretty good. What happened on this one??
MOONBEAM lives in San Francisco and her name is also well suited to her.
Lets start a new thread on guns and carry laws. Would do it myself but I just seem to get ignored when WE are right.
Hey, BONEHEAD
Your posts are usually pretty good. What happened on this one??
Torm, I believe the subject I was addressing was the relationship between crime and the economy, not crime and punishment severity. Not implying that your point is wrong or unrelated, only that you changed the subject.
thebestMAX, you are doubtlessly aware that as California goes so will the rest of you eventually and that it's the Bay Area driving the rest of the state. As an androgynous being at the forefront of human cultural evolution you should know that I am quite experienced with the barbs of barb bearers, or barbarians, as they are oft refered to, and have as one inevitable consequence, so to speak, cultivated water repellent feathers.
By the way, it WAS Russ who first commented on that one aspect of the aptness of my name. There are, however, other implications. Hehe!
thebestMAX, you are doubtlessly aware that as California goes so will the rest of you eventually and that it's the Bay Area driving the rest of the state. As an androgynous being at the forefront of human cultural evolution you should know that I am quite experienced with the barbs of barb bearers, or barbarians, as they are oft refered to, and have as one inevitable consequence, so to speak, cultivated water repellent feathers.
By the way, it WAS Russ who first commented on that one aspect of the aptness of my name. There are, however, other implications. Hehe!
<< you are doubtlessly aware that as California goes so will the rest of you eventually and that it's the Bay Area driving the rest of the state. >>
Keep living in your avant garde dream world. Socal controls the state because it has most of the population and your water.
KingHam
I'm not changeing the subject as all are revelant to the discussion.
There are many scary stories about of California's new War On Guns. All are true and it is California where the anti-gunners are pitching there lies and mis-information to a new heights. The rest of the US will not abide by so blatant an attack on our basic rights.
BTW, there are nemerous instances in the Bible where a person protects himself or his family or posessions with violence. Remember the Roman Centurion who was a Christian? He was never decried his profession.
There are many scary stories about of California's new War On Guns. All are true and it is California where the anti-gunners are pitching there lies and mis-information to a new heights. The rest of the US will not abide by so blatant an attack on our basic rights.
BTW, there are nemerous instances in the Bible where a person protects himself or his family or posessions with violence. Remember the Roman Centurion who was a Christian? He was never decried his profession.
Quite frankly, over here in Pennsyltucky, we never much gave a damn how y'all do things in California . . .
I said that it was relevant, but not germane to a refutation of the fact that crime and the economy are also connected, not as Russ implied, disconnected, at least in the eyes of 'experts' such as those from my quote. My point is that dong dong wrong is guess what, ding dong wrong. I'm right or wrong only according to this or that statistic.
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