$35,000 Tesla Model III Is Coming In 2017

[BarkingGhostar]

I wonder what similar 20 year old car companies are doing in terms of quality.

 

[Aikouka]

Tesla released an update that sort of added in full self-driving. There's an option now in the Autopilot section to submit yourself for the beta. Of course, you need the FSD package to even take part, but when you select the option, you have to go through a dialog that explains the basics of it. Essentially, they will rate your driving and give you a score based upon factors such as "excessive" turning G-forces, hard stops, improper use of AutoPilot, follow distance, etc. If your score is good enough, you have a better (or the only?) chance to get into the beta. Of course, they denote that you can have your access to the beta revoked at any time.

I signed up to get into it, and I read that your "Safety Score" is supposed to show up in the app (mine is up to date), but I don't see anything yet. (I heard it can take a few hours to show up.) They also gave me what amounts to two separate updates where the previous one also includes the use of the in-cabin camera to watch and ensure the driver is being attentive. To be frank, I don't know how well it works, because the car still uses force to determine that you're actively keeping your hands on the wheel. (It yelled at me earlier even though I had my hands on the wheel.)

So, I guess it's a bit of a waiting game at this point!

 

[Paratus]

Tesla released an update that sort of added in full self-driving. There's an option now in the Autopilot section to submit yourself for the beta. Of course, you need the FSD package to even take part, but when you select the option, you have to go through a dialog that explains the basics of it. Essentially, they will rate your driving and give you a score based upon factors such as "excessive" turning G-forces, hard stops, improper use of AutoPilot, follow distance, etc. If your score is good enough, you have a better (or the only?) chance to get into the beta. Of course, they denote that you can have your access to the beta revoked at any time.

I signed up to get into it, and I read that your "Safety Score" is supposed to show up in the app (mine is up to date), but I don't see anything yet. (I heard it can take a few hours to show up.) They also gave me what amounts to two separate updates where the previous one also includes the use of the in-cabin camera to watch and ensure the driver is being attentive. To be frank, I don't know how well it works, because the car still uses force to determine that you're actively keeping your hands on the wheel. (It yelled at me earlier even though I had my hands on the wheel.)

So, I guess it's a bit of a waiting game at this point!

Interesting. I’ve got a model 3 but I’m not paying for FSD as I’m just not driving enough to make it worthwhile. Still I’m interested in how the actual FSD ends up working. You’ll have to let us know if you get in.

 

[KentState]

Tesla released an update that sort of added in full self-driving. There's an option now in the Autopilot section to submit yourself for the beta. Of course, you need the FSD package to even take part, but when you select the option, you have to go through a dialog that explains the basics of it. Essentially, they will rate your driving and give you a score based upon factors such as "excessive" turning G-forces, hard stops, improper use of AutoPilot, follow distance, etc. If your score is good enough, you have a better (or the only?) chance to get into the beta. Of course, they denote that you can have your access to the beta revoked at any time.

I signed up to get into it, and I read that your "Safety Score" is supposed to show up in the app (mine is up to date), but I don't see anything yet. (I heard it can take a few hours to show up.) They also gave me what amounts to two separate updates where the previous one also includes the use of the in-cabin camera to watch and ensure the driver is being attentive. To be frank, I don't know how well it works, because the car still uses force to determine that you're actively keeping your hands on the wheel. (It yelled at me earlier even though I had my hands on the wheel.)

So, I guess it's a bit of a waiting game at this point!

We opted-in on the Y and will see how it goes. I decided against FSD on the 3 seeing how we barely used any of the advanced features. The only thing that I miss is auto lane change on the highway.

 

[Aikouka]

I’ve finally got my safety score to work, and I’m at an average of 98 right now. Honestly, it’s kind of awkward given how there are some factors that you really can’t control well. For example, on my drives today, I knew one segment would likely feature a high "follows too closely" percentage because I was driving on a highway that tends to see higher congestion at that time. I had to merge on in between another car, which immediately put me at an unsafe distance. Even trying to create good, safe distances, I still ended up with around 55% for that segment.

 

[KentState]

I’ve finally got my safety score to work, and I’m at an average of 98 right now. Honestly, it’s kind of awkward given how there are some factors that you really can’t control well. For example, on my drives today, I knew one segment would likely feature a high "follows too closely" percentage because I was driving on a highway that tends to see higher congestion at that time. I had to merge on in between another car, which immediately put me at an unsafe distance. Even trying to create good, safe distances, I still ended up with around 55% for that segment.

Just my opinion, but don't get too caught up in the score. Unless you are a "bad" driver (< 80%) the ding here or there won't matter. Tesla wants to get this beta into a good amount of hands to start gathering feedback and they just don't want idiots crashing the car.

As far as the grading, it was meant for insurance, which does factor into things like people that drive in congested areas. You are more likely to get into an accident, even if a good driver, than a person that drives in light traffic. I know that the State Farm app drives me crazy with similar metrics like cornering or acceleration which my 3 Performance does with ease. On one hand, a car that does 0-60 in the low 3 second range is quick even when not flooring it, but on the other hand I have a car that's pretty quick.

 

[Kaido]

you have to go through a dialog that explains the basics of it. Essentially, they will rate your driving and give you a score based upon factors such as "excessive" turning G-forces, hard stops, improper use of AutoPilot, follow distance, etc.

What's the point of having a sports car that goes 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds if you're not gonna drive it like a sports car?? Tesla you make me lol sometimes

 

[Kaido]

Just my opinion, but don't get too caught up in the score. Unless you are a "bad" driver (< 80%) the ding here or there won't matter. Tesla wants to get this beta into a good amount of hands to start gathering feedback and they just don't want idiots crashing the car.

As far as the grading, it was meant for insurance, which does factor into things like people that drive in congested areas. You are more likely to get into an accident, even if a good driver, than a person that drives in light traffic. I know that the State Farm app drives me crazy with similar metrics like cornering or acceleration which my 3 Performance does with ease. On one hand, a car that does 0-60 in the low 3 second range is quick even when not flooring it, but on the other hand I have a car that's pretty quick.

What I want is machine learning that drives the way I drive, plus a blend of safety, sort of like how the newer voice assistants are learning "your voice" for per-person commands in multi-user households. That way it won't drive like a Tesla, it will drive like me.

 

[Aikouka]

Just my opinion, but don't get too caught up in the score. Unless you are a "bad" driver (< 80%) the ding here or there won't matter. Tesla wants to get this beta into a good amount of hands to start gathering feedback and they just don't want idiots crashing the car.

I think that's a fair point. Before I read the Ars article, one thing I didn't know about was that the driving assessment period is supposedly only for seven days. At first, I figured it was a "keep driving well and you'll randomly get it" process. Although, it sounds like they may keep monitoring you, and revoke it if needed? However, I'm not sure if that's strictly for violations (e.g. not being attentive while using it) or a poor safety score.

What's the point of having a sports car that goes 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds if you're not gonna drive it like a sports car?? Tesla you make me lol sometimes

Hard turns is probably my second worst stat after following closely. The latter is something that is, at times, hard to control, but I will admit that I do enjoy a little bit of G's when I turn. I don't get to the point where I'm screeching tires though, and of course, you need to be safe about it and take into account things like blind corners and such.

 

[Kaido]

Hard turns is probably my second worst stat after following closely. The latter is something that is, at times, hard to control, but I will admit that I do enjoy a little bit of G's when I turn. I don't get to the point where I'm screeching tires though, and of course, you need to be safe about it and take into account things like blind corners and such.

This will be interesting legally at some point...like, how much is Tesla liable for here? Are they violating any rights by monitoring your driving all the time? I'd imagine because people opt-in, it's a moot point. iirc, there was some car insurance place that had an OBD-II monitor or something to detect driving habits & would lower your insurance rate if you were a good driver...in return for monitoring every single place you went & how you drove, haha!

How long do you think it's going to take before we see true FSD? At this point, I think it's going to be another decade, particularly for true, actual hands-free city driving.

 

[KentState]

This will be interesting legally at some point...like, how much is Tesla liable for here? Are they violating any rights by monitoring your driving all the time? I'd imagine because people opt-in, it's a moot point. iirc, there was some car insurance place that had an OBD-II monitor or something to detect driving habits & would lower your insurance rate if you were a good driver...in return for monitoring every single place you went & how you drove, haha!

How long do you think it's going to take before we see true FSD? At this point, I think it's going to be another decade, particularly for true, actual hands-free city driving.

I did it for a month or so with State Farm and threw it in the trash. They stopped doing ODBC and instead use a little GPS transmitter that sits in the window and connects to an app on the phone. The $200 savings a year wasn't worth the constant down grading because I drove cautiously but not perfect. Stupid stuff like dinging me for using my phone to pay for coffee or lunch in the drive thru or accelerating to 60mph in under 5 seconds (not even a hard launch).

 

[manly]

What's the point of having a sports car that goes 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds if you're not gonna drive it like a sports car?? Tesla you make me lol sometimes

Besides merging onto a freeway, when exactly can you take advantage of that acceleration?

What I want is machine learning that drives the way I drive, plus a blend of safety, sort of like how the newer voice assistants are learning "your voice" for per-person commands in multi-user households. That way it won't drive like a Tesla, it will drive like me.

The last thing we need is AI that drives like humans do. It wouldn't be very intelligent if it did mimic humans.

This will be interesting legally at some point...like, how much is Tesla liable for here? Are they violating any rights by monitoring your driving all the time? I'd imagine because people opt-in, it's a moot point. iirc, there was some car insurance place that had an OBD-II monitor or something to detect driving habits & would lower your insurance rate if you were a good driver...in return for monitoring every single place you went & how you drove, haha!

How long do you think it's going to take before we see true FSD? At this point, I think it's going to be another decade, particularly for true, actual hands-free city driving.

Well that's the billion dollar question. I believe Waymo is much closer than Tesla is, and I'm a fanboy of neither. I feel it's technically feasible for Waymo to have fairly ubiquitous robotaxis within 5 years. The fact that they're now operating in SF is very telling. They'll only be in population centers that can justify the investments (the Waymo cars aren't exactly cheap and increasingly will be reliant on EV charging infrastructure). If you're wondering when Tesla will offer Level 4 FSD, I don't think anybody really knows the answer to that. It could be between 4 years and never?

 

[Aikouka]

This will be interesting legally at some point...like, how much is Tesla liable for here? Are they violating any rights by monitoring your driving all the time? I'd imagine because people opt-in, it's a moot point. iirc, there was some car insurance place that had an OBD-II monitor or something to detect driving habits & would lower your insurance rate if you were a good driver...in return for monitoring every single place you went & how you drove, haha!

The big part there is that the dialog that you get when you press the button to opt-in has you accepting that Tesla will monitor your driving.

How long do you think it's going to take before we see true FSD? At this point, I think it's going to be another decade, particularly for true, actual hands-free city driving.

This may sound pessimistic, but in the current implementation... never. Tesla's current push is to head toward a camera-only implementation, which is theoretically similar to what we do as humans. Albeit, we also use sound to a degree and maybe even things like smell to a far lesser degree. However, there is one huge limitation to Tesla's implementation... their cameras have no ability to remove obstructions. If you've ever driven a Tesla in inclement weather, you've likely seen notifications about one or more cameras being blocked/obscured. How is a vision-based system supposed to work when it cannot see? If I remember correctly, the front-facing camera is technically hit by the front wipers, but there's nothing to help the fender, B-pillar, or rear cameras.

Another big thing that isn't impossible, but I don't know how far Tesla has come is determinations based upon reduced datasets. An example would be earlier today when I was leaving a strip mall that has been having a vast amount of work done around it, and one part of that work involved repaving and reworking one entrance/exit's entire mouth. This left the mouth with absolutely no lane markings to work with. So, what would Tesla do with this? It could see the lack of a sign denoting no turns in a specific direction (commonly seen when turning onto one-way roads). This could help it determine that this unmarked mouth should have at least one inlet and one outlet where the outlet can go left and right (there is no straight option). It could also take the size of it to determine that there should likely be two outlets (left and right).

 

[Kaido]

Besides merging onto a freeway, when exactly can you take advantage of that acceleration?

Well, this gets into the viability of cars in general. Probably like 90% of the population could get by with a Nissan Sentra, but there are a lot of non-tangibles, like the experience of owning a car you like, driving a performance-packing vehicle, etc. I definitely don't "need" a stick-shift in my car, but it makes my commute way more fun every day! Nobody needs a Tesla S Plaid that goes zero to 60 in 1.99 seconds, but it sure is cool! lol

Personally, I would be really interested in a FSD vehicle that matched my driving patterns, because then I'd know what to expect more. I still get nervous in my buddy's Tesla because it stays right in the middle of the lane, even when an 18-wheeler is bobbing into our lane...yikes!

 

[Kaido]

The big part there is that the dialog that you get when you press the button to opt-in has you accepting that Tesla will monitor your driving.



This may sound pessimistic, but in the current implementation... never. Tesla's current push is to head toward a camera-only implementation, which is theoretically similar to what we do as humans. Albeit, we also use sound to a degree and maybe even things like smell to a far lesser degree. However, there is one huge limitation to Tesla's implementation... their cameras have no ability to remove obstructions. If you've ever driven a Tesla in inclement weather, you've likely seen notifications about one or more cameras being blocked/obscured. How is a vision-based system supposed to work when it cannot see? If I remember correctly, the front-facing camera is technically hit by the front wipers, but there's nothing to help the fender, B-pillar, or rear cameras.

Another big thing that isn't impossible, but I don't know how far Tesla has come is determinations based upon reduced datasets. An example would be earlier today when I was leaving a strip mall that has been having a vast amount of work done around it, and one part of that work involved repaving and reworking one entrance/exit's entire mouth. This left the mouth with absolutely no lane markings to work with. So, what would Tesla do with this? It could see the lack of a sign denoting no turns in a specific direction (commonly seen when turning onto one-way roads). This could help it determine that this unmarked mouth should have at least one inlet and one outlet where the outlet can go left and right (there is no straight option). It could also take the size of it to determine that there should likely be two outlets (left and right).

And I mean, can it really be called FSD if it only works on nice clear days? If heavy rain & snow shuts the system down, I'd argue that it's a driver assist program, not a driver replacement program. tbh it seems like lidar is going to be huge in the future, especially with how much it's shrunk & how much the price has come down.

Do you plan on keeping your Tesla long-term, and if you replace it with another one, would you pay for any sort of FSD package on it? I'm still stuck in a rental with outdoor parking & no charging, so unless I'm really determined to get into a 500+ mile Cybertruck, an EV would be a pretty big hassle for me at the moment

 

[manly]

Well, this gets into the viability of cars in general. Probably like 90% of the population could get by with a Nissan Sentra, but there are a lot of non-tangibles, like the experience of owning a car you like, driving a performance-packing vehicle, etc. I definitely don't "need" a stick-shift in my car, but it makes my commute way more fun every day! Nobody needs a Tesla S Plaid that goes zero to 60 in 1.99 seconds, but it sure is cool! lol

Personally, I would be really interested in a FSD vehicle that matched my driving patterns, because then I'd know what to expect more. I still get nervous in my buddy's Tesla because it stays right in the middle of the lane, even when an 18-wheeler is bobbing into our lane...yikes!

No I get it, boys and their toys. Half this forum likes fast cars; all I'm saying is that realistically you have few opportunities to do anything with 0-60 in 3.2s except merging onto the highway. Or track days, which I've never done. I know a few people do it, but launching at intersections is terribly dangerous. I've owned slow 4-bangers in the past, and if you ever have to drive up a grade, it's annoying AF. My first car had 63hp lol.

As for how Tesla FSD operates, I think you're alluding to something different. Perhaps you truly do want FSD to mimic your style, but I interpret what you wrote as saying the current implementation is dumb or not confidence-inspiring. And not to criticize your driving techniques; my general point is we do not want autonomous driving to mimic human drivers.

As for utility, it would still be useful to have FSD even if only during good weather days. Although ideally you can drive with a stick on those nice days, and FSD can do the driving on days with poor conditions. Do we know what Waymo's business model is? Are they only going to do robotaxis, or is their goal to sell the kit to the auto manufacturers?

 

[repoman0]

Or track days, which I've never done.

I do lots of these … you don’t max out 0-60 at those either, pretty much ever unless you’re in a Miata Maybe once per session depending on the track, but more often it’s a slower careful merge.

 

[manly]

I do lots of these … you don’t max out 0-60 at those either, pretty much ever unless you’re in a Miata Maybe once per session depending on the track, but more often it’s a slower careful merge.

Well that's your fault for having an E39 M5 that sadly won't depreciate enough for me to take off your hands. I don't know anything about track days tbh, but was merely opining that modern fast cars are generally too quick for our roads. There was a YouTube review of the Cayman (IIRC by Throttle House?) that was particularly telling. They said that with the manual gearbox, you'll spend all your time in 1st and then 2nd gear. On public roads, you'll never get to shift into 3rd gear.

To veer off topic, Vox has a good piece about road deaths:

America’s car crash epidemic

Driving kills as many Americans each year as guns do. Experts say that’s preventable.

www.vox.com

 

[repoman0]

Well that's your fault for having an E39 M5 that sadly won't depreciate enough for me to take off your hands. I don't know anything about track days tbh, but was merely opining that modern fast cars are generally too quick for our roads. There was a YouTube review of the Cayman (IIRC by Throttle House?) that was particularly telling. They said that with the manual gearbox, you'll spend all your time in 1st and then 2nd gear. On public roads, you'll never get to shift into 3rd gear.

To veer off topic, Vox has a good piece about road deaths:

America’s car crash epidemic

Driving kills as many Americans each year as guns do. Experts say that’s preventable.

www.vox.com

Oh trust me I get your point and agree with it 100%. In fact my ND2 Miata is about the fastest I want or need a street car to be … even it is a little too much, as in you can’t completely thrash it like the older ones without worrying at least a little about jail. The Cayman is even worse with the manual, with second gear redline at like 85mph (I did see that Throttle House review and generally love their videos).

The M5 does NOT go to the track … I’d be broke on tires and brakes lugging that 4000lb fatty around but yeah 60-130 depending on the track is more what matters, and that far less than cornering ability, weight transfer, braking, tires and most of all driver mod. I totally agree with you that 0-60 is at the bottom of the “useful metrics for judging a car” list

 

[BarkingGhostar]

FYI, not a day goes by on Interstate-85 in Gwinnett county that someone is doing 85 MPH or more. No, they are not racing. It is the nature of the collective beast. And "And acceptable response as to why you were speeding is To keep up with traffic." That was from the actual traffic court video they make everyone watch. And it is why everyone speeds in my county and the interstate speed limit is 70, which is interpreted at the minimum speed. So, imagine going from 10-15 MPH at the top of the ramp and needing to get to 85 by the time you actually reach the highway lane.

No one needs any of this. It is all about the wants [and desires]. And my wife speeds more than me.

 

[repoman0]

So, imagine going from 10-15 MPH at the top of the ramp and needing to get to 85 by the time you actually reach the highway lane.

Why the F are you going 10-15 mph at the top of an on ramp?

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Its a common red light with people unwilling to pull up to let you into the turn lane which is a right-hand turn onto the ramp. There's too many people in my county.

 

[Aikouka]

Well, that was certainly not what I expected. On a drive earlier, I had someone brake quickly in front of me, and it set off the Foward Collision Warning alert (no AEB), and I wondered what what would do to my safety score. Well, turns out it was a lot worse than I expected, because I did not have one FCW event... I had 101. Even yesterday, with absolutely zero audible warnings, I still had 101 on a single 15 minute drive resulting in a score of 72 for the day. Every other day has been around 95-99, and now my combined score is less than 80 due to having a ZERO for today.

Honestly, I'm not even entirely sure what's causing this glut of warnings. This is during the trip from work to home, which is the same route as the other days. I think the only difference was in the amount of traffic being much higher yesterday than before. I do notice how there are times when the visualizer will freak out and constantly swap between proximity warning view and the standard driving view, which makes me wonder if the system will start penalizing me if I start moving when it thinks I'm too close.

 

[sdifox]

LoL I would never sign up to one of those things.

<---- part of the implementation team for a multinational insurer.

 

[manly]

Why the F are you going 10-15 mph at the top of an on ramp?

The story is hyperbole anyway. People speed on the freeway, 85 isn't insane. But generally not in the right-most slow lane where merging occurs.

Well, that was certainly not what I expected. On a drive earlier, I had someone brake quickly in front of me, and it set off the Foward Collision Warning alert (no AEB), and I wondered what what would do to my safety score. Well, turns out it was a lot worse than I expected, because I did not have one FCW event... I had 101. Even yesterday, with absolutely zero audible warnings, I still had 101 on a single 15 minute drive resulting in a score of 72 for the day. Every other day has been around 95-99, and now my combined score is less than 80 due to having a ZERO for today.

Honestly, I'm not even entirely sure what's causing this glut of warnings. This is during the trip from work to home, which is the same route as the other days. I think the only difference was in the amount of traffic being much higher yesterday than before. I do notice how there are times when the visualizer will freak out and constantly swap between proximity warning view and the standard driving view, which makes me wonder if the system will start penalizing me if I start moving when it thinks I'm too close.

Tesla AI-powered!