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300 - The Tale of the Greeks

Zorkorist

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
So today we are forced to talk about Greece, as this shameful thing, about to default on theiir loans.

When I was growing up, Athens and Sparta, were described as what it is all about.

Civilization. Power, Education and Enlightenment, but here, today we have Greece in chaos.

Is this where Government leads?

-John
 
This quote "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." seems relevant, and especially so given Greece's long history of being a democracy.

I don't think their's is threatened, though, just their immediate government/currency. Sure seems like they will default. I hope for their sake they do it soon before the citizens sell off too much of their public interests trying to fend off the inevitable.
 
As a person, there is no hoping they do it soon, in me.

The question is more what factors are knocking down the citizen, in this truly special state of Greece.

-John
 
Doppel said:
This quote "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." seems relevant, and especially so given Greece's long history of being a democracy.
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Good quote, but Greece has only been a democracy since 1975.

Prior to that they were ruled by the military.
 
Fresh article on CNBC

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43536609

Note that this greece in tragedy situation has been around for a long time and despite many efforts to assuage it has gotten worse, not better. More and more people are of the opinion that they are beyond saving, must default, and likely will pull out of the Euro.

The basic situation is their economy has tons of debt and is not competitive enough to grow quickly enough to pay it off, so they are in a debt spiral. They literally are already, clearly in a debt spiral that is unrecoverable if not for money being thrown at them. So the question is: how much more money will they need thrown at them and at what point do those throwing money say I'm tired of this?

And really the only way to get spending under control is to make such incredible cuts to spending that the populous will revolt, this austerity a condition of further monies.
 
Yeah, Greece is a mess.

But, what I wonder is why?

Greece is not just any state, they are the cradle of modern civilization, and modern Government.

Throughout history, they are the victors, and the civilization to be admired.

But here they are in 2011, unable to sustain themselves in the modern world.

-John
 
Zorkorist said:
Yeah, Greece is a mess.

But, what I wonder is why?

Greece is not just any state, they are the cradle of modern civilization, and modern Government.

Throughout history, they are the victors, and the civilization to be admired.

But here they are in 2011, unable to sustain themselves in the modern world.

-John
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Eventually everybody falls. Also, the sun makes people lazy 🙂
 
Zorkorist said:
Greece is not just any state, they are the cradle of modern civilization, and modern Government.

Throughout history, they are the victors, and the civilization to be admired.
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LOL, you are really exaggerating their role in history.

But here they are in 2011, unable to sustain themselves in the modern world.
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They can be a model for the path of first world to third world status.
 
Which is all we see today, but history tells us that Athenian and Spartans, were strong.

That Greece is not strong today, worries me.

-John
 
CanOWorms said:
LOL, you are really exaggerating their role in history.



They can be a model for the path of first world to third world status.
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But they shouldn't be.

And probably they won't be... because of multi-national help, This is Greece! Sparta, warriors, that brought back Helen.

-John
 
Sparta wasn't the end-all-and-be-all of countries, in fact, it was pretty damn screwed up. Democracy started in Greece but they veered far away from it long before "socialism". The big problem is that they never really developed any industries beyond ship building and olive oil and they don't really have any way to do it.

Going into the Euro was probably the worst decision they ever made. In fact, I think the Euro was a horrible idea for most countries. It just can't succeed. Nothing to do with their government.
 
The Greek currency can't de-value based on it's weak economy so it can't compete on the global market with relatively cheaper goods. It's also locked in to paying 20%+ interest rates on incredible piles of debt.

The best thing it could do is ditch the euro, default, implement austerity and try to find a product it can sell on the global market effectively.

The worst thing it could do is accept the IMF bailout with an ever increasing load of 20%+ loans, stay with the euro, and only use austerity to fix it woes.

IMHO.
 
Zorkorist said:
Yeah, Greece is a mess.

But, what I wonder is why?

Greece is not just any state, they are the cradle of modern civilization, and modern Government.
Click to expand...

Corruption, incompetent politicians, uninterested citizen, etc, etc. There is no single target to blaim, Greece is a major clusterfuck. You can't have socialdemocratic benefits paying right-wing taxes. Greece is a case of politicians promising everything to everyone (which is fine), but keeps taxes low. And even with low taxes, the Greeks cheats their way out of paying them.
Couple this with shady bookkeeping which allowed Greece to sneak their way into the EMU and irresponsible German and French (amongst others) banks giving larger loans than Greece can cover for.

Still in the end, State expenses < State income (on a longer term) or you're in for trouble. A lot of countries have major problems with this basic truth of economics.

CLite said:
The Greek currency can't de-value based on it's weak economy so it can't compete on the global market with relatively cheaper goods. It's also locked in to paying 20%+ interest rates on incredible piles of debt.

The best thing it could do is ditch the euro, default, implement austerity and try to find a product it can sell on the global market effectively.

The worst thing it could do is accept the IMF bailout with an ever increasing load of 20%+ loans, stay with the euro, and only use austerity to fix it woes.

IMHO.
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Do you have any idea how a default would affect Greece and the rest of the world? One would think that the Lehman Brothers crash was bad enough back in 2008, a defaulting Greece would result in a similar situation, if not worse, as the global economy is in a weakened state. The only acceptable way out of this is savings packages, tax increase and new loans until the Greece deficit is under control. Greece can't default and therefor can't leave the Euro.

Default = not an option
 
The only acceptable way out of this is savings packages, tax increase and new loans until the Greece deficit is under control.
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Don't you realize Greece is getting worse? The only way out for it is default or people forgive loans (which really amounts to the same thing). Its economy is deteriorating, not getting better. It is trending in the wrong direction.
 
Yes, Greece's economy is in recession. Not surprising.

The major saving package is not put into effect yet and after it's been accepted by parliament it will take some time (weeks, months) before you see big changes in the numbers. Gotta think on a longer term here, saving Greece doesn't happen overnight.
 
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PingviN said:
Do you have any idea how a default would affect Greece and the rest of the world? One would think that the Lehman Brothers crash was bad enough back in 2008, a defaulting Greece would result in a similar situation, if not worse, as the global economy is in a weakened state. The only acceptable way out of this is savings packages, tax increase and new loans until the Greece deficit is under control. Greece can't default and therefor can't leave the Euro.

Default = not an option
Click to expand...

I understand the world-wide consequences. I was just offering an opinion that taking on more debt at 20%+ rates while staying with a strong currency is not in Greece's best interest. I didn't say it was not in the best interest of the rest of the world and debt-holders.

They will never get debt under control without defaulting, the absurd interest rates they are facing will just keep them strung out until they eventually default in the future.
 
They will never get debt under control without defaulting, the absurd interest rates they are facing will just keep them strung out until they eventually default in the future.
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Yes, they absolutely will not be able to get out of this without defaulting or debt forgiveness. Their economy is too weak and too debt laden and interest rates are sick. Do you know 2 year bonds went as high as 30&#37; recently? THIRTY PERCENT. How can more time possibly help that?
 
Zorkorist said:
Yeah, Greece is a mess.

But, what I wonder is why?

Greece is not just any state, they are the cradle of modern civilization, and modern Government.

Throughout history, they are the victors, and the civilization to be admired.

But here they are in 2011, unable to sustain themselves in the modern world.

-John
Click to expand...

The modern world has many benefits built on pyramid schemes. Those schemes run their course and bankruptcy is ensured. The cradled populace, thinking those benefits are their birth right, riot and destroy civilization.

The entitlement mentality killed democracy. The United States WILL go the way of Greece.
 
I think that most of the world needs to be concerned when a European country slides into third world status. This type of situation will likely lead in genocide or other sorts of European aggression. The US should place an aircraft carrier group outside of Greece as a sign that the world is tired of European violence, especially since this is the direction that most European countries are going.
 
RabidMongoose said:
I think that most of the world needs to be concerned when a European country slides into third world status. This type of situation will likely lead in genocide or other sorts of European aggression. The US should place an aircraft carrier group outside of Greece as a sign that the world is tired of European violence, especially since this is the direction that most European countries are going.
Click to expand...

translation - blah blah, dem euros are bad mckay.
 
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