29 years old and hitting the gym for the first time...

[phucheneh]

Brief background: I'm 6'3, moderate build. Have weighed as much as ~240 and at little as ~185. Went into the Army (Guard) at 18, came out of BCT as fit as I've ever been, but still sporting a bit of a belly and really lacking in upper body. Intermittent spurts of running since then, but I've never maintained a regiment, and never dedicated myself to lifting in the slightest.

I work on cars for a living, which has generally kept me moderately fit. Turning wrenches doesn't build much other than forearms and grip, though. Plus back and legs from being on your feet and lifting heavy stuff.

I started going to Planet Fitness with a buddy at the beginning of this year, and soon decided to go ahead and pay the measly ten bucks a month for my own membership. For anyone not familiar with PF, it's a big chain of 'Average Joes' type gyms with plenty of equipment and (in my area) 24/7 access.

I'm in the 205-210lb range right now, and have already made pretty substantial gains in muscle/strength from the month or so of heavy exercise I've gotten. I've probably added a solid 50% or so in the amount of weight I can use in any exercise, and can see a marked visual difference in most all muscle groups.

However, I can already see the rapid progress slowing down. I guess this is normal given that I was taking under-developed muscle groups and giving them a substantial workout as much as 4-5 times a week.

I'm thinking it's probably time to shift from erratic, unplanned 'do as much as you can' workouts to something with a more strict regimen.

Currently, I start with about 30 minutes of intense cardio on an elliptical (high resistance, moderate speed...I pretty much go at it as hard as I can) and then do an hour or more of weight machines. I'm working my way up to comfort with free weights, but currently (and even more so earlier on) there's just a bit too much risk...to really 'push' means risking failure in the middle of a rep.

I hit as many different areas as I can. I tend to avoid some of the really localized workouts- arm curls are a good example. I can do other exercises that are not bicep-specific, but are definitely still giving them a workout, and my arms end up feeling the same as if I had done dedicated bi or tri stuff.

I'm getting a little long-winded here, but I guess it just boils down to me asking: what should I really be doing to help tack on upper body mass? Should I really be trying to isolate specific muscles with very intense, high weight/low rep sets, or am I better off doing keeping at what I'm doing, which is basically doing more complex movements with as much weight as I can manage while still being able to do technically-correct ~10 rep sets? I also have a habit of starting the weight out at the lowest amount that really still feels like 'work,' which seems to kind of stretch out and 'wake up' the muscles, and ratchet up the weight until I feel like I'm getting close to a failure point. As mentioned, those points have definitely been going way, way up.

I don't neglect the rest of my body...using lots of resistance on the elliptical has been great for my legs as a whole, plus I still do some lower body exercises. And there's an ab machine that I absolutely love...I suck at knowing what things are actually called, but I'm referring to the machine where your whole body moves, not the stationary seat 'fold at the waist' type, which seems a bit silly.

But the majority of my time is spent on upper body stuff. Fly/rear delt, chest press, overhead press (overhead lifting is where I really feel the weakest), pulldown...all the common stuff that you see dedicated machines for.

Be gentle with me. I'm sure there's a lot I could be doing better...all I can say is at least I'm doing something. A lot of 'something.' But I'm sure I could be optimizing my time a bit better.

 

[phucheneh]

Fuck me, that's a long post.

Cliffs:

Want upper body to be more huge, bruh. I barely look like I Even Lift (tm).

I'm still a beginner and hesistant to leave the safety/ease of dedicated machines, but I am 100% committed at this point, and am working damned hard at the gym. Just need to feel like I'm getting the most for my time. And not doing any damage.

Also, on a totally random note, I'm stupid-flexible for my size, but I still recognize that some machines simply do not let me move naturally.

 

[Zivic]

if you can see your abs, skip the cardio. It isn't helping anything. If you are fat enough to "need" the extra calories out, do it smarter. do HIIT sessions after your weights... or better yet, lift weights longer with higher volume/shorter rest periods. On the days you don't train, keep yourself active. the real progress is made with your diet. get that in order first.

I like machines for certain things, but it's good to incorporate both free weights and machines in a workout. focus on the muscle you are working while training. practice flexing and posing (seriously). Get a good mind muscle connection so you have control over the muscles. This will help you concentrate on contracting the specific muscles during a workout.

At the end of the day it's diet and consistency that get results. Not a magic workout, supplement, pill, or technique.

- I know you want a big upper body, but legs are 50% of your mass. at least be aware of that and please do not think for a second that if you did an elliptical session that that equates to training legs... even if it is on level 1000. Learn to squat, be it front squats, back squats or goblet squats.

 

[phucheneh]

No definition in my abs. Little bit of 'love handle,' even. With my shirt off, I've been called things like 'the fattest skinny person I've ever ever seen,' especially during those Army days.

So, I am not thin by a long shot...nor is it really my goal. Sure, I'd like to lose the spare fat on my torso, but I'm not obsessed with it, nor am I with getting tremendous muscle definition...at this point in time, I'm fine with a bit of fat. Perhaps that will change later. But right now, I'd simply like to be a little more toned overall with much more developed muscles above the waist.

I will add in squats. I've just started using a Smith machine for some other exercises like overhead and bench presses, and that's another good one to add into the mix. I know some people say even the Smith machine can cause unnatural movement and slower development, but at this point, it seems like a good stepping stone to actual free weights. And it's a hell of a lot better than machines [dedicated to one exercise]...my elbows are already thanking me for getting rid of chest and overhead press machines.

 

[z1ggy]

Like Zivic said.... and I'll second the mind muscle thing. You gotta "feel" the pump when it's going on.

Sounds weird but I like to stare at my muscles when I lift whenever possible. Not even because "I lift brah" but because when I look at them, I feel more connected mentally, and maybe it's placebo, but I swear it helps. Obviously can't do it for things like bench press where you lay down, but if I can find a mirror... I'll use it.

Also... Eat to grow.

 

[Zivic]

No definition in my abs. Little bit of 'love handle,' even. With my shirt off, I've been called things like 'the fattest skinny person I've ever ever seen,' especially during those Army days.

So, I am not thin by a long shot...nor is it really my goal. Sure, I'd like to lose the spare fat on my torso, but I'm not obsessed with it, nor am I with getting tremendous muscle definition...at this point in time, I'm fine with a bit of fat. Perhaps that will change later. But right now, I'd simply like to be a little more toned overall with much more developed muscles above the waist.

You sound like you are already thin.... that's kind of what skinny fat is

Toned? You tone a piano. What you are wanting is to get lean. You know how you get lean? you lose the fat around your muscles. Your problem sounds like even if you lost the fat around your muscles you have nothing there to show

I will add in squats. I've just started using a Smith machine for some other exercises like overhead and bench presses, and that's another good one to add into the mix. I know some people say even the Smith machine can cause unnatural movement and slower development, but at this point, it seems like a good stepping stone to actual free weights. And it's a hell of a lot better than machines [dedicated to one exercise]...my elbows are already thanking me for getting rid of chest and overhead press machines.

You have the advantage of being a newbie. and this day in age there is tons of info out there about how to train, eat, sleep, f^ck... we should all be experts at everything we do given how much readily available info we have at our finger tips. Sadly people still say, I want to get "toned" and consider an elliptical session a leg day :sadface:

Back to the advantage of being a newbie with all the info available. You have the advantage of being a clean slate. You can learn from the beginning how to do the movements properly. Maybe that's a lost cause with you having spent time on the machines? You can learn how to do the lift correctly just as easily as incorrectly. It's easier to learn, upfront, the right way than have to go back after you have lifted for a while and try to correct bad form/habits.

I would personally start doing goblet squats. and get your diet in check. learn your maintenance calorie level -> how much your can eat without losing or gaining weight. You want more muscle, but to do so, you need to eat more calories than you burn. the bad thing is, you are already a higher % bodyfat than you would like to. Adding extra calories will help you build muscle, but will also add fat. Given that you sound like you have little to no muscle, you likely need to sacrifice getting fatter for the sake of building some muscle.

I would get a game plan. plan out a diet, get on a decent program. I still recommend AST's MAX-OT for a lot of people. and learn how to lift

 

[blackdogdeek]

The fat-loss sticky at the top of this forum has a good introduction to the basics of diet and fitness regimens.

 

[inachu]

It really depends on how you want to do. Current real life fitness trainers will always brag about your "CORE" strength. While they are absolutely correct I would ask are you going to do any ass kicking or IRONMAN triathlons?

If not then you do not have to worry about your core strength. Its just they snicker at guys at the gym who heave up dumbells and rest them on their legs between sets which denotes lack of core strength.

I would say you are doing just fine for now and I would say buy some books/magazines to really point yourself in health fitness in the way that fits yourself the way you want to look.

 

[schmuckley]

Get your gymwear right!
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xrez_kiss-paul-stanley-workout-tape_music

 

[Kaido]

At the end of the day it's diet and consistency that get results.

That's pretty much it, be super consistent to a proven workout plan & EAT is the fastest path I've seen. Changing my diet has given me more visible results than anything I did previously. And even with food, there's such a variety of ways to achieve results. I know people who have visible abs who eat tons of junk food, simply because they watch their daily calorie intake, eat a lot of protein, & lift. You can maintain any kind of body state if you're consistent, and unless you're competing, you don't have to be super strict with what you eat, if you're willing to follow a maintenance plan in regards to your daily caloric intake. There's no magic in abs, it's just low bodyfat & hypertrophy.

...as I balance some donuts on my gut as I type this :awe:

 

[schmuckley]

3-4 sets of 8-12 per exercise.
benches,military press,curls,1 of watever tricep exercise..I like on-bench curlbar close-grip to the forehead extensions.
..maybe some rows..
probably deadlifts too,because everyone should do deadlifts.









Oh.. I don't even lift
:awe:

 

[phucheneh]

Deadlifts never really made any sense to me. It seems like more a benchmark or demonstration that a legit exercise.

I mean, I know it can build strength like anything else, but it seems like a lot of unecessary risk.

...if you can't tell, I'm paranoid about messing my back up, giving myself a hernia, tearing a muscle or ligament, ect.

 

[phucheneh]

Oh, and 3-4 sets of 8-12 per exercise is pretty much where I'm at. Sometimes more like 5-6 sets of 10 if I started the weight out pretty low.

Here's a stupid question: when am I 'done' with something? Should I push to failure or avoid it?

Example: say I'm benching an amount that is requiring substantial effort, but that I am definitely able to rep 10 times. Now, I could do another good set with that weight, then maybe struggle with a third set as I start to get worn out. Or I could deem the first set 'too easy' and add a little weight, and maybe struggle to do two 5 rep sets with it.

I am still so much in a phase of experimentation and initial growth, so it's very hard to just say, 'okay, I've going to do 'x' sets of 'x' reps with 'x' weight.' I may find out in the middle of that that I have set a goal that is, on that day, impossible. Or I could get done and say 'well, that was easier than I thought, and now I feel like I haven't really tried.'

Does that kinda make sense? It's hard to just follow a plan laid out by someone else, 'cause they're not me and they don't know what I can handle. And I myself simply do not have the knowledge to take the numbers I come up with and say 'okay, this is how I should be lifting.'



On diet...yeah, I'm pretty bad there. I won't lie: one motivator for doing what I'm doing right now is the fact that it allows me to eat what I want. I don't count calories, and I'm maintaining total weight while building muscle. If I'm just a BIT more thoughtful, I could actually start dropping weight. Right now I'm just trying to not eat complete shit, and focus on getting lots of protein.

 

[blackdogdeek]

Check out Starting Strength or StrongLifts 5x5.

 

[phucheneh]

Oh, and lemme get one more question in here for Zivic or anyone who may agree with his goblet squat rec: Why? Not 'why squats,' but why the goblet over a standard squat with a bar? I always thought using a dumbell, kettlebells, or what-have-you was more for convenience rather than actually doing something difference from a standard squat with a bar.

 

[Zivic]

http://www.ast-ss.com/maxot.php

sign up and read through that. It is a great starting point. If you follow that, you will be YEARS ahead of the average gym goer.

you want progressive overload.

for example.

first set - 100 lbs X 12 reps
second set - 110 lbs for 8-10 reps
third set - 125 for 8 reps
maybe a 4th - 135 for 6-8 reps

there are times to go to failure, forced reps, drop sets, ect. Read up on Max-OT it will talk a lot about reasons why to do certain things. at the heart of training is progressive overload. the easiest way to accomplish this is by increasing weight.

again, with all the info we have, people still think that if you workout you can eat what you want. THAT IS THE BIGGEST PILE OF BULL SH!T LIE A PERSON CAN EVER BELIEVE!!!!!! I cannot stress that enough. YOU CANNOT OUTWORK A BAD DIET

yes calories in/calories out is what it comes down to, but calories burned during a workout don't equate to extra calories you can consume. You have a ton of other variables that come into play that it isn't a straight one to one... I had an extra beer last night, so an extra 15 minutes will negate that <- if that were true, there would be a HELL of a lot more people walking around with impressive physiques.

You will lose weight by taking control of your food consumption. you didn't get fat by missing elliptical sessions. You got fat by eating too damn much. GET YOUR DIET UNDER CONTROL

if you take anything away from this; if you do every single other thing correctly, but your diet is off, it will all be for not. Diet is the single most important thing. Put all your efforts there. Once it's in order, then put that effort into your training. when you have your training in order, get your stress levels/sleep in order... then supplements, then cardio....

 

[phucheneh]

I hate to say 'I'm new to this/I need advice' and 'I disagree' in the same breath. Makes me seem like an ungrateful arrogant prick (...those who know me from OT can prolly agree on the 'prick' part and probably the 'arrogant' too). That is not my desire.

However...I disagree. :\

To an extent, I do agree with you, but I think you're being a bit too severe there. Remember, I'm not out to do anything other than 1) feel better and 2) look better. I feel like I can accomplish both of those without getting crazy with my diet. Yeah, I'm being stupid if I don't cut out soda and junk food. Those kinds of relatively simple changes are what I need.

Not a super-strict diet regimen engineered for maximum muscle gain and fat loss. I'm not Christian Bale trying to go from The Machinist to Batman in three months.

 

[Carson Dyle]

if you can see your abs, skip the cardio. It isn't helping anything.

Except your actual physical fitness.

Don't be a meathead.

 

[phucheneh]

I do hear that a lot when someone hears your primary goal is building muscle. I feel like I could certainly use the cardio. But in the interest of clarity:

Is cardio really going to do anything non-trivial to inhibit the desired muscle development?

It just doesn't seem likely to me...seems more like a tip for people with very low body fat trying to really maximize size/definition, i.e. 'get fucking ripped.'

And that ain't me.

 

[Kaido]

To an extent, I do agree with you, but I think you're being a bit too severe there. Remember, I'm not out to do anything other than 1) feel better and 2) look better. I feel like I can accomplish both of those without getting crazy with my diet. Yeah, I'm being stupid if I don't cut out soda and junk food. Those kinds of relatively simple changes are what I need.

Not a super-strict diet regimen engineered for maximum muscle gain and fat loss. I'm not Christian Bale trying to go from The Machinist to Batman in three months.

Exactly. A quick search on the discussion of abs vs. junk food:

http://www.reddit.com/r/xxfitness/comments/2vfqwc/ladies_who_have_abs_what_do_you_eat/

Example #1:

You don't have to be actively cutting to have abs: you can maintain them, just like any bodily state. I'm 5' 2" and currently maintaining-ish on around 1900 cals a day, shooting for close to 150g protein, and don't care about the rest. I eat meat, veggies, and a solid helping of processed/"junk" food most days and lift 3x a week, currently doing Texas Method.

Ab selfie this morning: http://instagram.com/p/y7ZrNSTGVE/

Example #2:

I am seconding this, this is almost what I do exactly.

Also to add to this, once you have abs you can go on a slight surplus and still retain them as long as your gaining weight in primarily muscle and not fat. I am 5'5 and around 120lbs, I eat 1800 for maintenance and around 2000 on my bulk, aiming for at least 100g of protein and the rest from wherever. I will even eat coconut oil if I am short on calories!

Current abs about a month and a half into my bulk

This dude lost 27 pounds on the Twinkie diet:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/

For a class project, Haub limited himself to less than 1,800 calories a day. A man of Haub's pre-dieting size usually consumes about 2,600 calories daily. So he followed a basic principle of weight loss: He consumed significantly fewer calories than he burned.

His body mass index went from 28.8, considered overweight, to 24.9, which is normal. He now weighs 174 pounds.

But you might expect other indicators of health would have suffered. Not so.
Haub's "bad" cholesterol, or LDL, dropped 20 percent and his "good" cholesterol, or HDL, increased by 20 percent. He reduced the level of triglycerides, which are a form of fat, by 39 percent.

...

Two-thirds of his total intake came from junk food. He also took a multivitamin pill and drank a protein shake daily. And he ate vegetables, typically a can of green beans or three to four celery stalks.

...


Haub's body fat dropped from 33.4 to 24.9 percent.

Healthy? Not really, but because he took the numbers game approach, he made out pretty well. Note that this is one of MANY approaches - there's calorie deficit, there's working out a truckload like Michael Phelps, there's simply eating clean all the time, etc. You can get results in a variety of ways.

As per the first two examples, you can get visible results & still eat junk food if you're willing to watch your calorie intake for the day, exercise, and eat a pretty good amount of protein. So the only thing you need to do is figure out what your goals are, and then figure out which approach you're willing to take to get them.

 

[PenguinPower]

Except your actual physical fitness.

Don't be a meathead.

Who are you kidding? Heart disease isn't the leading cause of death in the US, and cardio exercise does nothing to negate that.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Who are you kidding? Heart disease isn't the leading cause of death in the US, and cardio exercise does nothing to negate that.

Sure. Keep telling yourself that cardiovascular health is unimportant. It's better to look good than to feel good, right?

 

[schmuckley]

Oh, and 3-4 sets of 8-12 per exercise is pretty much where I'm at. Sometimes more like 5-6 sets of 10 if I started the weight out pretty low.

Here's a stupid question: when am I 'done' with something? Should I push to failure or avoid it?

Example: say I'm benching an amount that is requiring substantial effort, but that I am definitely able to rep 10 times. Now, I could do another good set with that weight, then maybe struggle with a third set as I start to get worn out. Or I could deem the first set 'too easy' and add a little weight, and maybe struggle to do two 5 rep sets with it.

I am still so much in a phase of experimentation and initial growth, so it's very hard to just say, 'okay, I've going to do 'x' sets of 'x' reps with 'x' weight.' I may find out in the middle of that that I have set a goal that is, on that day, impossible. Or I could get done and say 'well, that was easier than I thought, and now I feel like I haven't really tried.'

Does that kinda make sense? It's hard to just follow a plan laid out by someone else, 'cause they're not me and they don't know what I can handle. And I myself simply do not have the knowledge to take the numbers I come up with and say 'okay, this is how I should be lifting.'



On diet...yeah, I'm pretty bad there. I won't lie: one motivator for doing what I'm doing right now is the fact that it allows me to eat what I want. I don't count calories, and I'm maintaining total weight while building muscle. If I'm just a BIT more thoughtful, I could actually start dropping weight. Right now I'm just trying to not eat complete shit, and focus on getting lots of protein.

You should be doing as much weight as you can handle for the reps you are doing.
If you're doing 6-12 reps and you could do 20..you're doing it wrong.
Don't go to total failure if..say ..you're benching and don't have a spotter.

 

[Zivic]

Except your actual physical fitness.

Don't be a meathead.

You are obviously well versed in training :sarcasm: Please don't talk about things you have no idea about. You may want to reread what I posted. You can very effectively get your cardio work in through weight training. Increase intensity/volume while decreasing rest periods between sets. This is better than doing what the vast majority of idiots do for cardio.... Half ass steady state cardio on an elliptical at level 1.

 

[Zivic]

Put your efforts into the things that yeild the best/most notable results. First and foremost it's your diet. Don't listen to idiots that have nothing to show for their efforts.