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.22LR not a good round for defense?

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thepd7

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2005
9,429
0
0
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: pontifex

i can shoot a .22 rifle without hearing protection but its still loud. forget a .22 pistol though. tried shooting my ruger single six without protection and that is really loud.
Thepd7, were you referring to a pistol chambered in .22? I've never fired one, so I'll concede that it probably would be loud. I keep thinking rifle, since thats what most weapons chambered in .22 are.
Yes apparantly we were thinking of 2 different guns.

My Dad had a .22LR Ruger Revolver, that is mostly what I shot growing up. When I think harder to the only time I shot a .22 rifle you are right we didn't use hearing protection and it wasn't that loud.

The pistol on the other hand even when we used the .22LR and not the .22magnum shells was loud and needed hearing protection.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: pontifex

i can shoot a .22 rifle without hearing protection but its still loud. forget a .22 pistol though. tried shooting my ruger single six without protection and that is really loud.
Thepd7, were you referring to a pistol chambered in .22? I've never fired one, so I'll concede that it probably would be loud. I keep thinking rifle, since thats what most weapons chambered in .22 are.
Hey TallBill,

I've at least 3 handguns chambered in .22 (LR and magnum). A .22LR pistol is alot louder than my a bolt action .22 rifle. I've got a .22 Baretta with about a 3 - 4 inch barrel, it's hella loud (especially so indoors). It's even way ouder than my single action (wheel) gun, I suppose that has something to do with the Barreta's action mechanism.

Fern
 

SilthDraeth

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2003
2,635
0
71
I have a American made .22LR Luger. It looks like the 9mm German Luger pistol. It is decently loud.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,716
51
91
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: IGBT

..search your conscience for your own answers on what you know or don't know. Credible fire arm instructors know as sectional density increases in a projectile the difficulty of mastering proficiency increases which is why police are required to "qualify" annually or semi annually with their service weapon.

Stop being a retard. If you have any firearm for home defense it is your responsibility to practice with it every so often as well, whether it be chambered in 22LR or 458 socom.

Btw, you are extra retarded for using "sectional density". I've met plenty of "credible firearm instructors" and not one of them has ever said that. Stop talking out of your ass.
..I know your in the military and you do what your told based on your training. So I guess they felt certain aspects of ballistics weren't important for you to know or it's just over your head and they didn't want to confuse you:

Sectional Density
One of the most important factors is determining the degree to which air resistance will affect a projectile is cross-sectional density. One can think of cross-sectional density as a measure of the carrying power of a projectile. For example, if you throw a ping-pong ball through the air, it will experience some air resistance proportional to the cross-sectional area of the ball that comes in contact with the air. The ping-pong ball, which has a small mass, is likely to be affected a great deal by the air resistance it experiences as it travels. An equally sized lead ball thrown through the air experiences an effectively non-existent air resistance, due to the ratio of the lead ball's mass to its cross-sectional area, which is much greater than the ping-pong ball's. It is very important when considering the performance of a projectile to keep in mind the properties of cross-sectional density (Heard, 84).






Text


..I'll bet this is news to you too:
Ballistic Coefficient
To put a quantitative value on the degree that air resistance affects a certain type of bullet, engineers developed the ballistic coefficient:

C= w / (i x d^2)

where C= ballistic coefficient, W= weight of bullet, i= form factor, and d= diameter of the bullet.

Simply put, the form factor corresponds to the shape of the bullet and is inversely proportional to the degree of aerodynamic characteristic of the bullet, i.e. a pointy bullet has a higher number and a flat one has a lower number (Heard, 84).

By revealing the degree to which a bullet will retain its velocity, the ballistic coefficient can indicate the amount of drop of the bullet, and therefore its resulting accuracy. Although it is possible to design bullets with very high ballistic coefficients, this can be both beneficial and detrimental to bullet performance in terminal ballistics.


Terminal Ballistics
When studying terminal ballistics, engineers and scientists are interested in determining the effects of a projectile on a target. The important factors to consider are energy, penetration, and expansion.


Energy
Ironically, the same energy that we are trying to minimize in the recoil found in internal ballistics should be maximized in terminal ballistics. The idea is for the bullet to hit the target with as much energy as possible. Recall the equation for kinetic energy:

K= 1/2 mv^2

This indicates that the higher a projectile's velocity upon hitting a target, the more energy is carried into the target, thus causing more damage.

In the real world, energy is conserved, whereas in the movies it can be created out of thin air. Recall that the kinetic energy released when a bullet hits a target is less than the kinetic energy that the gun imparts on the bullet when it is fired - this is a necessary consequence of air resistance and the associated decrease in velocity. That means that if a bullet were to knock a bad guy off the ground and through a window, it would probably break the shooter's shoulder while sending him flying backwards.


Penetration
Equally important to the energy carried by a bullet is the amount of penetration that can be achieved when it hits a target. African big game hunters will tell you that it is vitally important for bullet to be able to penetrate a target because energy alone cannot take down a large animal. After all, an elephant can absorb much more energy as a result of being hit with a bullet than a shooter can through recoil. A bullet can do no damage to a target if it cannot penetrate the armor.

To remedy this, engineers developed a couple good solutions, most obvious of which simply makes the bullet sharper. Indeed, this is a very good solution because it also makes the ballistic coefficient higher, resulting in all the benefits of increased velocity. Another option is to make bullets harder. A hard bullet will penetrate without breaking into small pieces that are more easily slowed down.

Unfortunately, bullets that penetrate too well also tend to pass through objects without causing much damage. A gun that just makes neat little holes is only useful for target practice; what is needed is a controlled way for a bullet to penetrate an object and then release all of its energy inside.


Expansion
The solution to this dilemma is expansion - we want our highly aerodynamic bullet to enter the target and deform. The deformation will cause the ballistic coefficient of the bullet to decrease, thus transferring the energy of the bullet to the target. In an ideal situation, the bullet penetrates the target to a desired distance and stops. Engineers have created a plethora of different types of bullets with different terminal characteristics for different applications.



 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,328
68
91
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: IGBT

..search your conscience for your own answers on what you know or don't know. Credible fire arm instructors know as sectional density increases in a projectile the difficulty of mastering proficiency increases which is why police are required to "qualify" annually or semi annually with their service weapon.

Stop being a retard. If you have any firearm for home defense it is your responsibility to practice with it every so often as well, whether it be chambered in 22LR or 458 socom.

Btw, you are extra retarded for using "sectional density". I've met plenty of "credible firearm instructors" and not one of them has ever said that. Stop talking out of your ass.
..I know your in the military and you do what your told based on your training. So I guess they felt certain aspects of ballistics weren't important for you to know or it's just over your head and they didn't want to confuse you:

<Sectional Density
One of the most important factors is determining the degree to which air resistance will affect a projectile is cross-sectional density. One can think of cross-sectional density as a measure of the carrying power of a projectile. For example, if you throw a ping-pong ball through the air, it will experience some air resistance proportional to the cross-sectional area of the ball that comes in contact with the air. The ping-pong ball, which has a small mass, is likely to be affected a great deal by the air resistance it experiences as it travels. An equally sized lead ball thrown through the air experiences an effectively non-existent air resistance, due to the ratio of the lead ball's mass to its cross-sectional area, which is much greater than the ping-pong ball's. It is very important when considering the performance of a projectile to keep in mind the properties of cross-sectional density (Heard, 84).






Text


..I'll bet this is news to you too:
<Ballistic Coefficient
To put a quantitative value on the degree that air resistance affects a certain type of bullet, engineers developed the ballistic coefficient:

C= w / (i x d^2)

where C= ballistic coefficient, W= weight of bullet, i= form factor, and d= diameter of the bullet.

Simply put, the form factor corresponds to the shape of the bullet and is inversely proportional to the degree of aerodynamic characteristic of the bullet, i.e. a pointy bullet has a higher number and a flat one has a lower number (Heard, 84).

By revealing the degree to which a bullet will retain its velocity, the ballistic coefficient can indicate the amount of drop of the bullet, and therefore its resulting accuracy. Although it is possible to design bullets with very high ballistic coefficients, this can be both beneficial and detrimental to bullet performance in terminal ballistics.


Terminal Ballistics
When studying terminal ballistics, engineers and scientists are interested in determining the effects of a projectile on a target. The important factors to consider are energy, penetration, and expansion.


Energy
Ironically, the same energy that we are trying to minimize in the recoil found in internal ballistics should be maximized in terminal ballistics. The idea is for the bullet to hit the target with as much energy as possible. Recall the equation for kinetic energy:

K= 1/2 mv^2

This indicates that the higher a projectile's velocity upon hitting a target, the more energy is carried into the target, thus causing more damage.

In the real world, energy is conserved, whereas in the movies it can be created out of thin air. Recall that the kinetic energy released when a bullet hits a target is less than the kinetic energy that the gun imparts on the bullet when it is fired - this is a necessary consequence of air resistance and the associated decrease in velocity. That means that if a bullet were to knock a bad guy off the ground and through a window, it would probably break the shooter's shoulder while sending him flying backwards.


Penetration
Equally important to the energy carried by a bullet is the amount of penetration that can be achieved when it hits a target. African big game hunters will tell you that it is vitally important for bullet to be able to penetrate a target because energy alone cannot take down a large animal. After all, an elephant can absorb much more energy as a result of being hit with a bullet than a shooter can through recoil. A bullet can do no damage to a target if it cannot penetrate the armor.

To remedy this, engineers developed a couple good solutions, most obvious of which simply makes the bullet sharper. Indeed, this is a very good solution because it also makes the ballistic coefficient higher, resulting in all the benefits of increased velocity. Another option is to make bullets harder. A hard bullet will penetrate without breaking into small pieces that are more easily slowed down.

Unfortunately, bullets that penetrate too well also tend to pass through objects without causing much damage. A gun that just makes neat little holes is only useful for target practice; what is needed is a controlled way for a bullet to penetrate an object and then release all of its energy inside.


Expansion
The solution to this dilemma is expansion - we want our highly aerodynamic bullet to enter the target and deform. The deformation will cause the ballistic coefficient of the bullet to decrease, thus transferring the energy of the bullet to the target. In an ideal situation, the bullet penetrates the target to a desired distance and stops. Engineers have created a plethora of different types of bullets with different terminal characteristics for different applications.
LOL
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,131
54
91
I wonder if the people who are saying you need a cannon to stop a person have ever watched the old WWII films of amphibious landings?
Ever see any of the soldiers who get shot (presumably by large machine gun fire mostly) get knocked backwards or turned around?

No, all they do is fall forward, whether it's a sniper, machine gun, or sidearm fire.

A 22 will kill you, for sure. I'd hate to get shot by one. Trouble with those small rounds is, they might hit a bone and richochet around inside you.

Personally, anyone who breaks in my house will have to confront my 12 gauge, not my 22 rifle, but if could only get to the rifle I still bet any intruder would make tracks if I missed with my first shot.

You all keep worrying about an intruder jacked up on PCP all you want. If you live somewhere that being assaulted by such a person is more than a extremely minute possibility, I suggest you move.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
IGBT, you are clueless. Firearms instructors don't talk about sectional density. I didn't ask you what it was. What you don't realize is that you do all the math and science you want, but bullets are still unpredictible to some degree.

Anyways, good job showing us how smart you are. I'd bet a paycheck that I can outshoot you with my weak hand. You are the genious that expects marksmen performance from police after one or two trips to the range per year.

I understand drag coefficient, but that doesn't make me a nascar driver.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
I wonder if the people who are saying you need a cannon to stop a person have ever watched the old WWII films of amphibious landings?
Ever see any of the soldiers who get shot (presumably by large machine gun fire mostly) get knocked backwards or turned around?

No, all they do is fall forward, whether it's a sniper, machine gun, or sidearm fire.

A 22 will kill you, for sure. I'd hate to get shot by one. Trouble with those small rounds is, they might hit a bone and richochet around inside you.

Personally, anyone who breaks in my house will have to confront my 12 gauge, not my 22 rifle, but if could only get to the rifle I still bet any intruder would make tracks if I missed with my first shot.

You all keep worrying about an intruder jacked up on PCP all you want. If you live somewhere that being assaulted by such a person is more than a extremely minute possibility, I suggest you move.
Nobody is arguing that a 22lr wont kill. But that doesn't make it a "good" home defense round. Just like a bow and arrow isn't a "good" solution.

And just so you know, you are being ignorant if you don't think that a break in can't happen anywhere.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,716
51
91
Originally posted by: TallBill
IGBT, you are clueless. Firearms instructors don't talk about sectional density. I didn't ask you what it was. What you don't realize is that you do all the math and science you want, but bullets are still unpredictible to some degree.

Anyways, good job showing us how smart you are. I'd bet a paycheck that I can outshoot you with my weak hand. You are the genious that expects marksmen performance from police after one or two trips to the range per year.

I understand drag coefficient, but that doesn't make me a nascar driver.

..considering your responsibility I hope you can out shoot all of us out here.

 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
shrug.

if all i have is my .22 damn right i will use it. its better then nothing. are there better options? of course there is.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,480
9,430
126
The "obvious" here is that M-16's and AR-15's both use the .223/5.56mm round. I already brought this up some pages back.

And for all the home defense arguments, I personally use a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun.
 

MrColin

Platinum Member
May 21, 2003
2,403
3
81
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
It doesn't cause enough tissue trauma.
wrong. my little brother was attacked by a crackhead last may. He pulled his 5 shot .22LR revolver. As the crackhead was beating my brothers head into the cement my bro put one round into the guy. He subsequently got off of him went and laid down on the sidewalk and died.

Because the attacker was also the son of a state legislator, my bro could get up to 60 years.

Now if you said that .22 LR isn't loud enough to frighten away would be attackers with warning shots fired into the air, I would agree with that.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
44
91
Originally posted by: MrColin
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
It doesn't cause enough tissue trauma.
wrong. my little brother was attacked by a crackhead last may. He pulled his 5 shot .22LR revolver. As the crackhead was beating my brothers head into the cement my bro put one round into the guy. He subsequently got off of him went and laid down on the sidewalk and died.

Because the attacker was also the son of a state legislator, my bro could get up to 60 years.

Now if you said that .22 LR isn't loud enough to frighten away would be attackers with warning shots fired into the air, I would agree with that.
where did he hit him?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
Originally posted by: Vic
The "obvious" here is that M-16's and AR-15's both use the .223/5.56mm round. I already brought this up some pages back.

And for all the home defense arguments, I personally use a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun.
hahah

even I knew that! only gun i have fired is a .22 and a old 12 gauge. (i love .22's though soo much fun, speaking of anyone got one they want to get sale me hehhe).

(seen it on either mail call or a show on the military channel)
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
Originally posted by: Vic
The "obvious" here is that M-16's and AR-15's both use the .223/5.56mm round. I already brought this up some pages back.

And for all the home defense arguments, I personally use a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun.
Actually, ar AR-15 is an amazing home defense weapon in rural settings. Remember not to just think about where you live.

MrColin, did your bro have his concealed carry permit?
 

MrColin

Platinum Member
May 21, 2003
2,403
3
81
Originally posted by: Viper GTS
BTW since we're talking about .22LR...

Some family friends were trying to slaughter pigs with .22LR shots to the head. We're talking close range (a few inches), square in the forehead. They weren't having much luck (dazed them a little, but that's about it).

A .17 HMR dropped them dead in their tracks.

Round Comparison

Viper GTS
I see the problem your friends were having, "square in the forehead" is not the place to do it. the back of the head, just above the last cervical vertebra in a trajectory through the brain stem will drop them. I haven't tried it myself, but I picked that up in some veterinary literature.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Vic
The "obvious" here is that M-16's and AR-15's both use the .223/5.56mm round. I already brought this up some pages back.

And for all the home defense arguments, I personally use a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun.
hahah

even I knew that! only gun i have fired is a .22 and a old 12 gauge. (i love .22's though soo much fun, speaking of anyone got one they want to get sale me hehhe).

(seen it on either mail call or a show on the military channel)
Actually I might have a .22 to sell to you. Savage Mk II, bolt action. Its an absolute tack driver, but I've had trouble finding magazines that like to feed. I'll be in IL in a few months as well.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: Vic
The "obvious" here is that M-16's and AR-15's both use the .223/5.56mm round. I already brought this up some pages back.

And for all the home defense arguments, I personally use a Remington Model 870 12 gauge shotgun.
hahah

even I knew that! only gun i have fired is a .22 and a old 12 gauge. (i love .22's though soo much fun, speaking of anyone got one they want to get sale me hehhe).

(seen it on either mail call or a show on the military channel)
Actually I might have a .22 to sell to you. Savage Mk II, bolt action. Its an absolute tack driver, but I've had trouble finding magazines that like to feed. I'll be in IL in a few months as well.
well if you come to Northern ILL part let me kbnow. i will buy you a beer (or two). if nothing else come out to the house and have a BBQ!
 

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