2012 M5 Will be Automatic Only

[RavenSEAL]

Someone at BMW deserves a big neck right now. Honestly, if want a damn AT, i'll go buy a freaking ford fusion. If i got 500hp~ under the hood, i want MT damn it.

 

[exdeath]

What we are lamenting is that there may not be the option. A lot of us would like to think we might own an M5 one of these days... and would love if the option of a manual is there. The fact that BMW is possibly cutting out manuals completely for the M5...and may be only doing a slushbox (not even DCT) is just disheartening.

I understand that it's a business decision, but BMW does bill itself as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Some of us don't feel the driving experience is not the same without controlling the clutch and feel if any company can understand it, it is BMW. We're sad that they seem to be neglecting this. Up until this point, BMW has almost always given the option of a manual with the exception of a couple of their huge SUV's and executive sedans.

I'm not an auto hater. The ZF unit in my wife's car is fantastic and on days when I'm in horrible traffic and just want to veg...I appreciate it. I've driven a 2010 M3 with a DCT trans on a track and it is the one I'd have if bought my car purely for tracking. That being said, on days I just want to enjoy driving...I want to be in my car rowing my own gear and working my own clutch. That is all.

This. Like I said the M5 is more a touring car, so lets hope they don't do the same thing with the M3.

When/If I get a E46 M3, I already want the license plate to say "LAST I6" (playing off the Mad Max "LAST V8" theme with the I6 being the only proper engine for an M3), I hope it doesn't end up saying "LST I6MT"

 

[punjabiplaya]

This. Like I said the M5 is more a touring car, so lets hope they don't do the same thing with the M3.

When/If I get a E46 M3, I already want the license plate to say "LAST I6" (playing off the Mad Max "LAST V8" theme with the I6 being the only proper engine for an M3), I hope it doesn't end up saying "LST I6MT"

it's not the last i6, unless you're referring to the last i6 m3

 

[exdeath]

it's not the last i6, unless you're referring to the last i6 m3

Yes. Anyone and everyone can and does shove a V8/V10/V12 into something to make it powerful, big deal.

It's like I say about people who prefer socialism and no guns; there are many countries in the world that suit your tastes, pick one and move there, but don't destroy the ONE place in the world that suits me.

Likewise, there are dozens of cars to choose from if I want a V8.

But the BMW I6 M was unique and special, and only they did it.

With a V8 or V10 it's just another Mercedes, Caddilac, etc, it's not a BMW M anymore; no more than a mid engine AWD "Corvette" is still a Corvette.

 

[SSSnail]

Same here, as soon as our living situation allows for a dual parking space without me having to shell out beaucoup bucks for an additional lot, I'm getting a MANUAL E46 M3.

Or, possibly an E30 M3.

 

[punjabiplaya]

Yes. Anyone and everyone can and does shove a V8/V10/V12 into something to make it powerful, big deal.

It's like I say about people who prefer socialism and no guns; there are many countries in the world that suit your tastes, pick one and move there, but don't destroy the ONE place in the world that suits me.

Likewise, there are dozens of cars to choose from if I want a V8.

But the BMW I6 M was unique and special.

yep. It makes a sound and a smoothness that is just unique. It's still small and you can get decent fuel econ but still flog the shit out it.

 

[exdeath]

I'm of the opinion that some of the best classic modern cars peaked in an automotive golden age during the mid 90s to mid 00s. EFI reached perfection in this era as well. After that it's just been a slide downhill (sideways and sidegrades at best) for the most part: increases in power continually being offset by disproportionate increases in weight (and price) thus not being faster (sometimes slower) than previous models, manual transmission options removed, more regulations and mandatory shit on cars, packing in more shit and changing things that don't need to be changed just for the sake of calling it a new model or putting more buzzwords on the brochure, etc.

Basic luxuries in even the rawest of street cars, like power windows and door locks and keyless entry, great, love them. But now we are running out of shit to stick in cars, so now we have power assisted window switches that push themselves to activate the powered windows...oh and the power door lock switches have their own built in heated spas and 10393848-way swivel LCD TVs... enough is enough already.

I'll say it again, my top 3 cars are 03/04 Cobra, 93-98 Supra Turbo, and E46 M3. After that, current successor models are just ... bleh. Side grades, porkers, 10 lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag, and dozens of bland me too copy cats where nearly every car made from every vendor is the same, but just looks different. I don't care if it's .01 seconds faster around a track on the other side of the world if it loses it's uniqueness and character and just becomes a cold numb perfect formula that every auto maker follows and duplicates like a science.

It's like the 03 Cobra and the GT500. Sure the GT500 has a bigger engine and a power advantage mod per mod, but it's canceled out by the added size and weight of the new platform thus no faster, it lost the IRS that made the Cobra unique while weighing MORE with a lighter solid axle, engine internals aren't quite as good, costs twice as much for the same performance, and looks and interior styling are subjective. It's like you gain a few things but give up a few things at the same time and what do you gain, other than being able to say you have a new car. Contrast this with 03 Cobra vs 99 Cobra: you didn't lose anything that you already had, it was 100% upgrade, and what little weight it did grow, didn't grow as big as the increase in power, so it was still faster, etc.

It's like playing an RPG where you don't get any real upgrades, every new piece of gear has some green and some red numbers on the stat screen, and you never really find anything that is definitively ALL GREEN, or if you do, its +.0001 in everything but looks like total shit!

What a coincidence, my "golden age" includes the prior generation M5 🙂

 

[Castiel]

8 speed auto? Wow

 

[Malak]

If only there was some kind of system where a clutch was not needed but the gears could still be manually selected....

So basically you hate old style automatics. Because a lot of cars for at least the last 7 years have been able to be automatic without clutch but give you option to switch gears manually. My '04 even has an S mode where it goes automatic, but it waits to shift at red line so you stay at higher RPM's rather than it just shifting.

 

[Demo24]

Did you buy a manual because you like manuals or did you buy a manual because you hate automatics?

I just hate automatics. Constant gear hunting, they never knows what gear to be in or what I'm trying to do. Hit the gas a bit too hard and it drops 2 gears then spins the one tire then I lift my foot off the gas and it revs down a little without picking a gear then I touch the gas again and it slams the transmission into third as hard as possible. Fucking automatics suck. If only there was some kind of system where a clutch was not needed but the gears could still be manually selected....

This is because its a 4spd Corolla that sounds like either a)you arent driving it properly, or b)theres something wrong with it. I find it somewhat improbable your spinning Corolla tires once moving unless you have very bad tires. I've never consistently had any of the problems you are describing with any automatic car I've driven in the past 7 years. In my moms accord, push the gas from the stop and leave your foot in the position(depending on accel wanted) until it reaches right speed. Push it down more to either hold the gears longer or initiate a downshift. Floor it, and it goes to lowest possible gear and holds it to nearly redline before moving on until you let off. Every other car I've driven does this. Some cars, VW's in particular, have a little extra travel to say 'I want to accel as fast as possible, hold the gears' and it does this.


It's hardly surprising that the M5 is auto only. What's more interesting is that it's not an automated manual type. Then again the last gen one was only good when going hard. And from the sound of it the BMW DCT's aren't terribly good either. Mercedes seems to get away just fine with 'slushbox' type autos in their AMG models, they shift very quick, are smooth, and in some will let you hold gears. I guarantee there will be an ///M mode in this M5 that will let you choose what gear you want and stay there.

 

[PricklyPete]

So basically you hate old style automatics. Because a lot of cars for at least the last 7 years have been able to be automatic without clutch but give you option to switch gears manually. My '04 even has an S mode where it goes automatic, but it waits to shift at red line so you stay at higher RPM's rather than it just shifting.

My wife's car has the updated version of your car's transmission...and yes the S mode is nice for keeping the 2.0T in its prime, but it is no match for being able to shift exactly when you want. Even in manual mode, the ZF transmission is fairly responsive...but still leaves a buffer in there to make its own decisions (like when it wants to kick down).

 

[exar333]

What we are lamenting is that there may not be the option. A lot of us would like to think we might own an M5 one of these days... and would love if the option of a manual is there. The fact that BMW is possibly cutting out manuals completely for the M5...and may be only doing a slushbox (not even DCT) is just disheartening.

I understand that it's a business decision, but BMW does bill itself as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Some of us don't feel the driving experience is not the same without controlling the clutch and feel if any company can understand it, it is BMW. We're sad that they seem to be neglecting this. Up until this point, BMW has almost always given the option of a manual with the exception of a couple of their huge SUV's and executive sedans.

I'm not an auto hater. The ZF unit in my wife's car is fantastic and on days when I'm in horrible traffic and just want to veg...I appreciate it. I've driven a 2010 M3 with a DCT trans on a track and it is the one I'd have if bought my car purely for tracking. That being said, on days I just want to enjoy driving...I want to be in my car rowing my own gear and working my own clutch. That is all.

You nailed it here. I don't hate autos myself, but I certainly would not buy one for myself. It is like choosing two different tools that do the same action, if you like one and the other is 'meh' which would you choose? The travesty here IMHO is the lack of options. Even if they offered the option at 5k, thats still an option. You are already optioning-out these cars with 10k+ in extras, if the MT is worth-it, then go ahead. The slushbox-only approach is just crappy IMHO.

 

[ShawnD1]

This is because its a 4spd Corolla that sounds like either a)you arent driving it properly, .

That's exactly the problem. Automatics are ridiculously hard to drive because everything about them is so counter-intuitive. In a standard you get a wide range of control over how the car accelerates. There might be 3 or 4 gears that work at any given speed and you can control the throttle from 0% to 100%. In an automatic the gears and throttle are clumped together and cannot be separated. Pushing the pedal down 10% might give 10% throttle. Pushing twice as hard will give 20% throttle but also drop a gear so you get 4x as much power instead of 2x as much power. For those times when I'm trying to get out of a slow lane and into a fast moving lane, stomping on the gas makes it drop 2 gears, lag out for half a second while it makes this change, then it moves. You can't help but think your car is broken when you stomp on the gas and nothing happens for half a second, but that's the way it's designed.

The other annoying thing is how every automatic I have ever driven requires me to ride the brakes. The flow of traffic will be 40mph then there's a slight slow down. In a manual you just stop hitting the gas and it slows itself down. In automatics, it doesn't. The rpm might drop from 2000 to 1000 but the car isn't slowing down. I need to move my foot off the gas, then hit the brakes, then go back to the gas. wtf is this bullshit? It makes driving a lot more difficult than it should be.
It tends to happen a lot at speeds slower than 40mph.

 

[mb]

I've had none of those problems, Shawn, in any car I've owned. Most automatics are no where near that bad - I've certainly never experienced one. Stop comparing the toy transmission in your toy car to a more sophisticated auto.

 

[Demo24]

That's exactly the problem. Automatics are ridiculously hard to drive because everything about them is so counter-intuitive. In a standard you get a wide range of control over how the car accelerates. There might be 3 or 4 gears that work at any given speed and you can control the throttle from 0% to 100%. In an automatic the gears and throttle are clumped together and cannot be separated. Pushing the pedal down 10% might give 10% throttle. Pushing twice as hard will give 20% throttle but also drop a gear so you get 4x as much power instead of 2x as much power. For those times when I'm trying to get out of a slow lane and into a fast moving lane, stomping on the gas makes it drop 2 gears, lag out for half a second while it makes this change, then it moves. You can't help but think your car is broken when you stomp on the gas and nothing happens for half a second, but that's the way it's designed.

The other annoying thing is how every automatic I have ever driven requires me to ride the brakes. The flow of traffic will be 40mph then there's a slight slow down. In a manual you just stop hitting the gas and it slows itself down. In automatics, it doesn't. The rpm might drop from 2000 to 1000 but the car isn't slowing down. I need to move my foot off the gas, then hit the brakes, then go back to the gas. wtf is this bullshit? It makes driving a lot more difficult than it should be.
It tends to happen a lot at speeds slower than 40mph.

I still think theres something wrong with your car, or you. You know you can downshift an automatic manually and it will hold gear. More modern ones will downsift on hills and hold giving you some engine brake.

 

[Cheesetogo]

sigh. Let's be honest though, the last M5 basically was automatic only. They only stuck a manual in for the NA market...and it was not a good match.

The E60 was not a standard automatic, it was an SMG. While it didn't have a clutch, it was still closer to a manual than what it sounds like the new M5 has.

 

[ShawnD1]

I still think theres something wrong with your car, or you. You know you can downshift an automatic manually and it will hold gear. More modern ones will downsift on hills and hold giving you some engine brake.

I've never seen a car do that. I think the worst transmission I've ever seen was in a Ford Explorer. Going up a hill was just brutal because it could either be low throttle high gear and not have enough power to get up the hill or if you push on the gas just a little harder it would drop a gear and start accelerating like mad up the hill. Setting cruise control on the hill would make it shift back and forth every few seconds.

 

[MrWizzard]

The E39 M5 (MT) was seriously a classic and amazing to drive. Interesting that Cadillac is becoming more of a driver's company these days. This makes the CTS-V even more attractive if you want power + MT. Boo...

Yep the E39 was the last M5 I was interested in. My dads got one with only 15k miles on it. I really wish I could afford buying that from him. Sigh....someday maybe.

 

[PricklyPete]

The other annoying thing is how every automatic I have ever driven requires me to ride the brakes. The flow of traffic will be 40mph then there's a slight slow down. In a manual you just stop hitting the gas and it slows itself down. In automatics, it doesn't. The rpm might drop from 2000 to 1000 but the car isn't slowing down. I need to move my foot off the gas, then hit the brakes, then go back to the gas. wtf is this bullshit? It makes driving a lot more difficult than it should be.
It tends to happen a lot at speeds slower than 40mph.

Newer/higher-end automatics deal a lot better with this. The ZF in my wife's car regularly downshifts to help slow the car down once you start braking. My wife has actually complained because she feels the brakes are not linear...but I explain to her that is the downshifting of the car to trying to "save" the breaks. For me it is great (as it attempts to mimic what I would do in a manual) and increases the chance that the car is in the right gear if I choose to floor it.

As I said, I'm very impressed with modern automatics and would even choose them in certain conditions. The new 8spd ZF unit is supposed to be even better than the 6spd I'm now familiar with. That being said, I'd still take a manual for my DD and/or weekend car. If I had to take my DD in traffic for 2 hours each day, I might change my mind and go for a modern automatic or DSG/DCT.

 

[PricklyPete]

Yep the E39 was the last M5 I was interested in. My dads got one with only 15k miles on it. I really wish I could afford buying that from him. Sigh....someday maybe.

What color and is it garaged? Can you send me your dad's number? :sneaky:

 

[PricklyPete]

The E60 was not a standard automatic, it was an SMG. While it didn't have a clutch, it was still closer to a manual than what it sounds like the new M5 has.

Agreed...but for me, the thrill of a manual has a lot to do with how much control I have using the clutch. I can be as smooth or as abrupt as I want. The problem with an automated manual like the SMG in the M3/M5 is that it just doesn't have that "human touch" and makes you feel like you have less control. For me, the love of the manual is because I feel like I'm connected to the car and completely in control (even if it is not true). As you start subtracting inputs (clutch, gearshift), that feeling of control diminishes.

 

[ayabe]

The M-DCT cannot handle the TQ this thing is going to put out that's why they're going with the 8 speed. No need to discuss the lack of a 6 speed manny, they only gave us one in the E60 after some serious bitchin and then it was gimped in that you couldn't go into full M mode.

 

[MrWizzard]

What color and is it garaged? Can you send me your dad's number? :sneaky:

Looks exactly like this, garadged and covered. I am trying to convince him to hold off on selling it till I can buy it sooo, no number ATM. HEH

 

[mb]

Looks exactly like this, garadged and covered. I am trying to convince him to hold off on selling it till I can buy it sooo, no number ATM. HEH

mmm sexy!!

 

[PricklyPete]

Looks exactly like this, garadged and covered. I am trying to convince him to hold off on selling it till I can buy it sooo, no number ATM. HEH

Gorgeous. Please send contact if you ever change your mind 😀