2011 Lost year for America Middle Class

[davmat787]

You are a DIPO then. Who cares. Anyone with half a brain views political parties as a Trojan. Lighten up Francis. 🙂

I just don't want my good name tainted by association with either party right now. D:

 

[Spikesoldier]

I just don't want my good name tainted by association with either party right now. D:

haha i know right, if you disagree with a partisan you must automatically be a member of the opposing party. not one of us, one of them.

 

[davmat787]

haha i know right, if you disagree with a partisan you must automatically be a member of the opposing party. not one of us, one of them.

Exactly, it is so frustrating. I guess to some people though labels and what group someone belongs too is more important than the truth or the issues.

 

[Jhhnn]

Guys coming back from war have to do with it? Are you serious? Who do you think filled many positions when the guys went off to war? That's right - women. Christ you are stupid. I suppose they just went back home to the kitchen... :roll;
I didn't say it was the "norm", but it expanded significantly which drove consumer demand, urban sprawl, etc.

BTW, your Great Depression claims and the blabbering after that is laughable, but you can hold that ignorant opinion if you wish. 🙂

Heh. So, uhh, you're saying that returning soldiers replaced women workers after WW2 & that's why the economy grew? Wouldn't that just be a 1 for 1 relationship? Or did something else happen?

Maybe the Wagner act had something to do with people's ability to organize & demand better wages?

Maybe the FHA, VA, & HOLC had revolutionized mortgages?

Maybe Glass-Steagal & the SEC held financial chicanery in check, previously the biggest money maker for the rich?

Maybe the FDIC helped stabilize banking?

Maybe farm subsidies & insurance helped stabilize commodity prices?

Maybe SS kept seniors out of abject poverty?

Maybe the fair labor standards act of 1938 had something to do with it?

Nevermind that Repubs of the day fought every bit of that tooth and nail in pursuit of the ideological purity of Free Market Capitalism, which cause the Depression in the first place.

Oh, and, uhh, nice dodge wrt the income share of the rich, too. If you have no counter, just pretend countervailing facts never existed, right? Bluster a little while you're at it, insult everybody's intelligence.

 

[gingermeggs]

Heh. So, uhh, you're saying that returning soldiers replaced women workers after WW2 & that's why the economy grew? Wouldn't that just be a 1 for 1 relationship? Or did something else happen?

Maybe the Wagner act had something to do with people's ability to organize & demand better wages?

Maybe the FHA, VA, & HOLC had revolutionized mortgages?

Maybe Glass-Steagal & the SEC held financial chicanery in check, previously the biggest money maker for the rich?

Maybe the FDIC helped stabilize banking?

Maybe farm subsidies & insurance helped stabilize commodity prices?

Maybe SS kept seniors out of abject poverty?

Maybe the fair labor standards act of 1938 had something to do with it?

Nevermind that Repubs of the day fought every bit of that tooth and nail in pursuit of the ideological purity of Free Market Capitalism, which cause the Depression in the first place.

Oh, and, uhh, nice dodge wrt the income share of the rich, too. If you have no counter, just pretend countervailing facts never existed, right? Bluster a little while you're at it, insult everybody's intelligence.

Absolutely +1
So do you think "they" would listen to this? "partizan hacks"
Do you think those laws/regs will return?
People can't afford to pick and choose if they have no money to spend in the first place, I guess that why the mega rich want everyone else to be poor- then they can't afford to disagree about anything.
Obama was full of promise but is going out without doing anything to strengthen the plight of those he misled to vote him in and the next guy (or Hillary) will do exactly the same...
The only thing you can do is not spend your money with multi-nationals(or bank with them) and vote for anybody other then the party political duopolies that puppeteer all the world's democracies nowadays.

The first man I would add to the list of enemies to a fair, honest and free world would be Ruport Merdoch(and his mini me ugly lill' Jimmyboy).
The next would be the high up staffers and cronies of G&S, then the rest of the big investment bankers/stock brokerages. After that big oil, mining and gun manufacturers

 

[Corporate Thug]

Jobs: The market I'm in has been hiring for quite a few years. Sure, overpaid positions may not be as plentiful as they once were but seriously people - just because you have a piece of paper doesn't mean you are entitled to a comfy life - you have to work hard and always look to expand and grow yourself.

Great for you and your field, but I know a lot of talented and hard working people that are not as fortunate in their respective fields and it isn't for lack of effort.

Fiscal: A bloated gov't is in serious need of cutting. We don't want or need a cradle to grave gov't.

Agreed

Housing: If you bought right and within your means - you are likely not in trouble here. Sure some got caught but with the way people run their finances I have little sympathy for those extremely upsidedown in their houses.

It has nothing to do with buying within your means. Again, I know plenty of people who can afford their mortgages just fine and have no problem making payments but are still upside down in their house because of the tumble in the housing market.

Higher education: Most overpriced "investment" that everyone thinks they need and thus the prices have done nothing but go up. It seems that no one wants to work hard after school and just expects to be given $ and jobs.

Cost of education is skyrocketing...for many fields, 4 year degrees are the new standard to even be considered for a position, esp. due to so much competition.

Healthcare: We have the best in the world here. INSURANCE is a different story but seriously it's not as bad as some think. It needs to be unhitched from employment but having the gov't controlling MORE of the INSURANCE market is by far the worst thing that we could do to try to "fix" it.

We most definitely do not have the best healthcare in the work. I'm not sure what subjective measure you are using.

replies in bold.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

replies in bold.

Couldn't agree more with your replies.

It's easy to take a narrow minded view of the wold as it applies to oneself and assume that everyone else's experience must match yours. This is exactly what CAD and other conservatives do, and it's why they cannot see the world beyond their own bubbles.

 

[dmcowen674]

It's easy to take a narrow minded view of the wold as it applies to oneself and assume that everyone else's experience must match yours. This is exactly what CAD and other conservatives do, and it's why they cannot see the world beyond their own bubbles.

Well the nice part of the Internets is their hate is out there in black and white for the world to see how much they hate Americans and America.

The people they hate are getting larger in numbers not through faults of their own but because of the people writing the hate about them and they are starting to gather together and rise up against the haters.

 

[Macamus Prime]

OP has it wrong; the conservative scumbags on these forums are NOT rich - they just praise and worship those who have destroyed this country. They scream about socialism and communism, yet don't utter a peep when the very people they praise and worship send American jobs to communist China.

This filth is so hateful of people that they deem to be "lesser", that they are OK with everything being destroyed. I guess they think they will be rewarded somehow? Or, they will herald in a new age?

They don't know what to do with the billions of people that are less fortunate than themselves. However, they do know that that ONE poor person they saw (who had a tattoo, iPhone and nice sneakers) means that every other poor person is like "that".

They hide their hate behind; "survival of the fittest". Now, who will survive when your capitalist heroes have fucked over the US so hard and so raw, that the masses will have no other choice but to come after you and your masters for food?

You will most likely enjoy defending yourself. But, there won't be much defending when a mass of angry poor people wash all over you.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

replies in bold.

*Yeah, and? The point here is that just because SOME areas aren't good doesn't mean others aren't. One needs to be wise when they pick their career - know the benefits and risks. - It's one of those personal responsibility things.

*🙂

*Someone being upsidedown in their house doesn't mean anything unless they have a non-traditional mortgage - OR bought at the top of the market and now have PMI or other such fees due to the drop. However if one made wise decisions before jumping into a big purchase they'd likely be in a better spot. People jumped on the housing bandwagon and forgot to ask themselves the "what ifs"...

*? And? One must weigh the benefits and risks involved with higher education just like any other major decision in life. IF you choose to overspend on your education - it's no one's fault but your own. Choose your path wisely.

*Uh, healthcare we most certainly do have the best. We have access to the widest range of care and have "specialists" in every area imaginable. I think you may be thinking INSURANCE instead of healthcare. It may be a bit subjective but I don't see how anyone can say they have more or better than what we have here.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Couldn't agree more with your replies.

It's easy to take a narrow minded view of the wold as it applies to oneself and assume that everyone else's experience must match yours. This is exactly what CAD and other conservatives do, and it's why they cannot see the world beyond their own bubbles.

lol, keep trying junior. I see much beyond my "bubble" and I see what the gov't has done to ruin things and how people no longer strive to be independent. This entitlement cancer is ruining America.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

*Yeah, and? The point here is that just because SOME areas aren't good doesn't mean others aren't. One needs to be wise when they pick their career - know the benefits and risks. - It's one of those personal responsibility things.

*🙂

*Someone being upsidedown in their house doesn't mean anything unless they have a non-traditional mortgage - OR bought at the top of the market and now have PMI or other such fees due to the drop. However if one made wise decisions before jumping into a big purchase they'd likely be in a better spot. People jumped on the housing bandwagon and forgot to ask themselves the "what ifs"...

*? And? One must weigh the benefits and risks involved with higher education just like any other major decision in life. IF you choose to overspend on your education - it's no one's fault but your own. Choose your path wisely.

*Uh, healthcare we most certainly do have the best. We have access to the widest range of care and have "specialists" in every area imaginable. I think you may be thinking INSURANCE instead of healthcare. It may be a bit subjective but I don't see how anyone can say they have more or better than what we have here.

And here for our viewing pleasure is everything wrong with American politics.

For Conservatives like CAD, the world HAS to be black and white. They simply don't understand their bubble unless it IS that way. They can't see that our world is actually incredibly nuanced and that to lead this country effectively we have to take an incredibly naunced position for nearly every major issue. It is never cut and dry, it is never black and white, this is why governance is so difficult.

You have a whole half of the voting population who are blindly duped into thinking that all they need to care about is themselves and their own well-being.

This is why Conservative America must die. The anti-science, anti-intellectualism, racist, xenophobic, and homophobic GOP must die a miserable death before we achieve any real progress in this country. We are slowly getting passed by our rivals, and the main reason is because we have half of Congress that believes abolishing the EPA would be a good thing.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Heh. So, uhh, you're saying that returning soldiers replaced women workers after WW2 & that's why the economy grew? Wouldn't that just be a 1 for 1 relationship? Or did something else happen?

Maybe the Wagner act had something to do with people's ability to organize & demand better wages?

Maybe the FHA, VA, & HOLC had revolutionized mortgages?

Maybe Glass-Steagal & the SEC held financial chicanery in check, previously the biggest money maker for the rich?

Maybe the FDIC helped stabilize banking?

Maybe farm subsidies & insurance helped stabilize commodity prices?

Maybe SS kept seniors out of abject poverty?

Maybe the fair labor standards act of 1938 had something to do with it?

Nevermind that Repubs of the day fought every bit of that tooth and nail in pursuit of the ideological purity of Free Market Capitalism, which cause the Depression in the first place.

Oh, and, uhh, nice dodge wrt the income share of the rich, too. If you have no counter, just pretend countervailing facts never existed, right? Bluster a little while you're at it, insult everybody's intelligence.

Clearly you are not following along. Income share has NOTHING to do with anything other than there was a short period where the middle class was up which just so happened to be after WW2 when dual incomes and consumerism grew.

SS is a ponzi scheme and should never have been implemented. If you want a social network to take care of those who can't take care of themselves - fine but SS is a joke. It's not the gov'ts responsibility to take care of people just because they made it to the "old" stage in their life.

Some of the things you mentioned helped our economy for sure, but again, to use the boom time for the middle class as a baseline is stupid - just as using a point in the Great depression is to baseline poverty or whatever else. Try seening the bigger picture instead of just bleeting your leftist talking points about how the gov't is the best and how nothing good can come without it. It's BS.

Lol at the attempt to claim Republicans caused the GD and the wonderful saviour gov't/FDR ended it. Only a twisted hack would attempt to claim such things. Sheesh...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

And here for our viewing pleasure is everything wrong with American politics.

For Conservatives like CAD, the world HAS to be black and white. They simply don't understand their bubble unless it IS that way. They can't see that our world is actually incredibly nuanced and that to lead this country effectively we have to take an incredibly naunced position for nearly every major issue. It is never cut and dry, it is never black and white, this is why governance is so difficult.

You have a whole half of the voting population who are blindly duped into thinking that all they need to care about is themselves and their own well-being.

This is why Conservative America must die. The anti-science, anti-intellectualism, racist, xenophobic, and homophobic GOP must die a miserable death before we achieve any real progress in this country. We are slowly getting passed by our rivals, and the main reason is because we have half of Congress that believes abolishing the EPA would be a good thing.

lol, you seem to be under the impression that I "ONLY" care about myself - you couldn't be further off in your ASSumption.

As to the black/white thing. People who refuse to accept that there can be a right/wrong are the ones who are misguided. I've had this conversation over the years here and it's amusing every time. Just because I have a known set of principles that guide me does not mean I refuse to see gray - It just means I have more black and white than some of you people who use other or less principles to guide themselves. Oh well, I'm sure you won't understand what I wrote - many supposedly "middle" people don't but it's ok - someday you might "get it". 🙂

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by CADsortaGUY
*Yeah, and? The point here is that just because SOME areas aren't good doesn't mean others aren't. One needs to be wise when they pick their career - know the benefits and risks. - It's one of those personal responsibility things.

*🙂

*Someone being upsidedown in their house doesn't mean anything unless they have a non-traditional mortgage - OR bought at the top of the market and now have PMI or other such fees due to the drop. However if one made wise decisions before jumping into a big purchase they'd likely be in a better spot. People jumped on the housing bandwagon and forgot to ask themselves the "what ifs"...

*? And? One must weigh the benefits and risks involved with higher education just like any other major decision in life. IF you choose to overspend on your education - it's no one's fault but your own. Choose your path wisely.

*Uh, healthcare we most certainly do have the best. We have access to the widest range of care and have "specialists" in every area imaginable. I think you may be thinking INSURANCE instead of healthcare. It may be a bit subjective but I don't see how anyone can say they have more or better than what we have here.

And here for our viewing pleasure is everything wrong with American politics.

For Conservatives like CAD, the world HAS to be black and white. They simply don't understand their bubble unless it IS that way. They can't see that our world is actually incredibly nuanced and that to lead this country effectively we have to take an incredibly naunced position for nearly every major issue. It is never cut and dry, it is never black and white, this is why governance is so difficult.

You have a whole half of the voting population who are blindly duped into thinking that all they need to care about is themselves and their own well-being.

This is why Conservative America must die.

The anti-science, anti-intellectualism, racist, xenophobic, and homophobic GOP must die a miserable death before we achieve any real progress in this country.

We are slowly getting passed by our rivals, and the main reason is because we have half of Congress that believes abolishing the EPA would be a good thing.

The Occupy movement is a step towards that end.

People are finally waking up and seeing the enemy.

 

[Jhhnn]

Clearly you are not following along. Income share has NOTHING to do with anything other than there was a short period where the middle class was up which just so happened to be after WW2 when dual incomes and consumerism grew.

SS is a ponzi scheme and should never have been implemented. If you want a social network to take care of those who can't take care of themselves - fine but SS is a joke. It's not the gov'ts responsibility to take care of people just because they made it to the "old" stage in their life.

Some of the things you mentioned helped our economy for sure, but again, to use the boom time for the middle class as a baseline is stupid - just as using a point in the Great depression is to baseline poverty or whatever else. Try seening the bigger picture instead of just bleeting your leftist talking points about how the gov't is the best and how nothing good can come without it. It's BS.

Lol at the attempt to claim Republicans caused the GD and the wonderful saviour gov't/FDR ended it. Only a twisted hack would attempt to claim such things. Sheesh...

Pure denial. Unsurprising, as well.

The broad middle class of today simply didn't exist prior to the New Deal, which formed the policy framework for post-WW2 America. There wasn't much of a middle class at all, so it's only reasonable to use that time period as a baseline if we're talking about the middle class, and to reference those policies if our goal is to maintain the middle class. Those policies are very much the same as those adopted by other successful democracies during the same period of time. Those who didn't never developed the same sort of thriving middle class as our own.

To the extent that we abandon those policies, return to policies favoring capital over labor extant prior to the New Deal, then we'll also diminish the fortunes of the middle class in favor of the financial elite. Which is precisely what Reaganomics set out to do, and is accomplishing today.

Only the illusions of debt have allowed it to advance to where we are today, debt created in lieu of wages by the financial elite, which reached critical mass & crashed at the end of the Bush years. Had they not reversed their non-interference policies, bailed out the banks, we'd be right back to the same sort of financial collapse of the early 1930's, which was also a balance sheet depression, driven by the over extension of credit/ concentration of income in the previous years.

As Colbert offers, facts have a Liberal Bias, and just because your own ideology is biased the other way doesn't mean they're not facts.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Well put

You always post pretty partisan neutral :thumbsup:

hahaha, good one.

 

[Jhhnn]

*Yeah, and? The point here is that just because SOME areas aren't good doesn't mean others aren't. One needs to be wise when they pick their career - know the benefits and risks. - It's one of those personal responsibility things.

*🙂

*Someone being upsidedown in their house doesn't mean anything unless they have a non-traditional mortgage - OR bought at the top of the market and now have PMI or other such fees due to the drop. However if one made wise decisions before jumping into a big purchase they'd likely be in a better spot. People jumped on the housing bandwagon and forgot to ask themselves the "what ifs"...

*? And? One must weigh the benefits and risks involved with higher education just like any other major decision in life. IF you choose to overspend on your education - it's no one's fault but your own. Choose your path wisely.

*Uh, healthcare we most certainly do have the best. We have access to the widest range of care and have "specialists" in every area imaginable. I think you may be thinking INSURANCE instead of healthcare. It may be a bit subjective but I don't see how anyone can say they have more or better than what we have here.

Being upside down actually means a great deal. It means negative equity. It was the great inflated valuation/ cashout refi craze of 2004 & 2005 that helped drive the false economy to greater heights, and it was the same thing that helped more sensible people pay off higher interest debt run up during extended periods of unemployment following the tech bust. There's no refi possible for people underwater, even when lower rates/ lower payments make it more likely they can meet their obligations.

Negative equity means that empty nest seniors can't cashout their five bedroom house where they raised their kids, downsize to something more suitable, or move to a warmer climate. It means that young families can't move up, either, because negative equity holds prices at a false high level & restricts the availability. Can't sell for less than you owe, after all.

It also restricts people's ability to borrow against equity to send the kids to college, or to meet unexpected expenses like medical bills, pay for in-home care for seniors, finance nursing home care.

It also locks people into their current dwelling, restricts their ability to move to better opportunities. They can't take that promotion if they need to move cross country to get it. They can't even move up when their employment position improves & they can afford higher payments.

Lots of people, not just greedy & stupid people, are so far underwater ATM that they won't come to break even for a decade or more, given the way that modern mortgages load interest on the front end. What was once a store of value, home equity, no longer exists for many. They've moved a big step closer to financial catastrophe as a result.

Healthcare? Yeh, sure, it's peachy, if you have good insurance, which is the problem in a nutshell. Employers are cutting benefits, offering more not so hot plans, and an increasing number of families can't afford the out of pocket expense-

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/13/news/economy/census_bureau_health_insurance/index.htm

People in Massachusetts w/ Romneycare have the highest % of coverage, unsurprisingly. Go Figure.

 

[davmat787]

Sorry about your neck. That does suck no doubt.

Thank you. And you are right, it does suck more than you can imagine. Be thankful for your health, all those cliches about your health are true. But, my point is that this is the hand I am dealt, blaming others, even though I could as it was the direct fault of someone else, does not help me. Doing so will only make me bitter and full of hate. I was trying to draw a parallel, that maybe your blaming problems on others could lead to the same dark path, and actually make your situation worse.

I respond to what people post. You must not post like a Democrat.

What does this mean?

You are right, there is nothing hold me back personally other than being too nice and my New Years Resolution is for that to change.

Hopefully I am successful and become the Meanest Rotten Bastard the U.S. or the world has ever seen. Time will tell.

We all have to play the hands we are dealt with in life. If you have ever played poker, you make the most out of whatever hand you get. Sometimes the best is to simply fold, other times you might take a chance, and others you get a straight flush. But you don't blame the dealer do you?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Don't expect CAD to reply. Once facts start getting in the way he disappears into the night.

 

[Jhhnn]

We all have to play the hands we are dealt with in life. If you have ever played poker, you make the most out of whatever hand you get. Sometimes the best is to simply fold, other times you might take a chance, and others you get a straight flush. But you don't blame the dealer do you?

You assume an honest game, one that hasn't been dealt for over 30 years.

 

[davmat787]

You assume an honest game, one that hasn't been dealt for over 30 years.

Yet, you still have to play the game right? And its not like we can't change the dealer or game if we really wanted to do everything that would entail. Anyway, enough with stretching my silly analogy, only trying to help Dave.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yet, you still have to play the game right? And its not like we can't change the dealer or game if we really wanted to do everything that would entail. Anyway, enough with stretching my silly analogy, only trying to help Dave.

I understand your efforts towards Dave.

OTOH, the game has been changed many times before, and will be again. The fewer the people who speak out against it and the longer the current game has to become entrenched, the longer it's likely to last. This is still a very wealthy country, but so is Mexico, although you'd never know it from the way that the vast majority live.

 

[Hugo Drax]

maybe he should only own 6 clothing stores then.

He probably had a pretty successful business in the beginning. I suspect he leveraged himself by borrowing to the hilt so he can expand rapidly. The thought process being "hey if I make X profit with 2 stores, I can increase profits 500%+ by opening 8 more"

Things become too big to be managed successfully and the cost to service the debt ends eating into profits until they end up going out of business.

 

[Hugo Drax]

A lot of the Middle class shot themselves in the foot in some ways. ie: Perma leasing automobiles to keep up with the jones, buying zero lot McMansions for the purposes of totem building. Borrowing to the hilt trying to keep up appearences of wealth. ie: "Fake it till you make it"

As Warren Buffet says. "It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked."

And the tide sure went down during this recession and lots of people ended up stark naked.