2011 Lost year for America Middle Class

[guyver01]

Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise? yes.. $9000 more a year than previous

Did your health benefits not go up? no. they went down. i went from paying $80/month for med/dental/vision to $20/month.. and the coverage is better

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you? no. food went down, gas went down, insurance went down

How did you accomplish all that? by working hard and earning it. unlike you

not that you'll see it... but my answers are above in bold.

was a good year for this democratic middle class family

 

[dmcowen674]

I think you're right, to a point, and so is Dave, although he puts it poorly. At best, the aggregate fortunes of the middle class have merely been sustained at a lower level than in the past.

While some of us may have done well over the last year, those who have were bucking the trend of a slow decline in middle class fortunes. Our problems are systemic, structural.

Systemic problems are clearly the result of poor policy decisions, and those are the kind of thing that often take decades to unfold. Policy has direction and origins, so if we pursue more of the same, we'll get more of the same.

We also need to recognize that policy creates winners & losers- always has, always will. It creates the economic environment we all function in. Applying game theory, we can have a system with a lot of small winners, or a system with a lot fewer really big winners. As play progresses, the latter system inevitably creates fewer & fewer winners by its very nature.

While the latter functions fine for a Lottery or a bingo pull tab game, the games of Risk & Monopoly, it's really no way to run an economy, for obvious reasons. We don't want to create a game that has an end, or one that disenfranchises more & more players over time, but rather one that plays continuously. In order to do that, we must not only limit how badly players can lose, but how spectacularly they can win, too. We have to keep everybody in the game, something we're not doing well atm.

Well put

You always post pretty partisan neutral :thumbsup:

 

[guyver01]

One friend owns 11 women's clothing stores and can't pay his bills.

maybe he should only own 6 clothing stores then.

 

[XZeroII]

Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise?

Did your health benefits not go up?

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you?

How did you accomplish all that?

I did not get a raise.

The company I work for has only 6 employees and doesn't offer health insurance. My private premiums did jump almost 20% though.

The price of things did go up.

How did I accomplish what? These are facts. I don't judge the quality of my life by the size of my paycheck. I find other ways to lift myself up. I saved my money. I looked for ways to improve my life without having to cry about how unfair it is that someone else has more than me. Despite the fact that I didn't get a raise and that my insurance went up, I still managed to save money and come out ahead this year. I probably worked harder this past year than any previous year in order to accomplish it.

But I guess that since I am better off this year than last year, I must have screwed a bunch of people to get where I am. Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Anyone who had a good year last year did it at the expense of everyone else?
"No surprise that's for sure except of course of you are a rich Republican ATPNer."


You quoted someone else's post earlier about how you agreed that there is a systemic problem and that politics work like game theory. I agree. In game theory there are always winners and losers. However, in game theory you have to take into account that people are selfish. In game theory, everyone always looks out for themselves and acts based on what is their own best interest. This doesn't breed an ideal utopia. It isn't surprising that there are more winners than losers because that how game theory works. We elect officials who are supposed to act on our behalfs but it's not surprising that they all (democrats AND republicans) only look out for their own best interests. THIS is why I don't like you so much. You refuse to believe that democrats are as selfish as republicans. You seems to think that democrats are above human nature and are truly altruistic when in fact they are just as selfish as their counterparts. You label anyone who acts selfishly as republican and anyone who acts altruistically as democrat. You live in a fantasy world. Yes, it would be nice if we could change human nature, but it's not going to happen. The game will never be rigged in favor of the poor or middle class. It's up to the poor and middle class to fend for themselves and pull themselves out of the systemic problems. How do they do this? In most cases it is by educating themselves and then using the knowledge that you gained to go from a loser in the game to a winner. When I say that people need to educate themselves, I don't mean that they need to get a degree. Degree's from universities are worthless. They are handed out like tissue paper. If you want to be successful, you need to have more knowledge that the average person and you need to use it. I work in the software industry and just because someone has a degree doesn't mean that they can do anything.

I'm sorry for the long run-on paragraph.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise?

Did your health benefits not go up?

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you?

How did you accomplish all that?

I did not get a raise.

The company I work for has only 6 employees and doesn't offer health insurance. My private premiums did jump almost 20% though.

The price of things did go up.

How did I accomplish what? These are facts. I don't judge the quality of my life by the size of my paycheck. I find other ways to lift myself up. I saved my money. I looked for ways to improve my life without having to cry about how unfair it is that someone else has more than me. Despite the fact that I didn't get a raise and that my insurance went up, I still managed to save money and come out ahead this year. I probably worked harder this past year than any previous year in order to accomplish it.

But I guess that since I am better off this year than last year, I must have screwed a bunch of people to get where I am. Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Anyone who had a good year last year did it at the expense of everyone else?
"No surprise that's for sure except of course of you are a rich Republican ATPNer."

Congrats

Keep voting Republican

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Well put

You always post pretty partisan neutral :thumbsup:

lol, saying that about Jhhhn shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Sheesh dave - you have to be trying to be this stupid, no?

 

[dmcowen674]

lol, saying that about Jhhhn shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Sheesh dave - you have to be trying to be this stupid, no?

This coming from one of the worst rabid America hating Republican posters on here is a great compliment, thanks :thumbsup:

 

[CADsortaGUY]

This coming from one of the worst rabid America hating Republican posters on here is a great compliment, thanks :thumbsup:

As I said... out of touch with reality.

Hopefully someday you'll grow up dave...

 

[Xenon]

As I said... out of touch with reality.

Hopefully someday you'll grow up dave...

Says the guy with the Raygun avatar...

 

[JS80]

Bring on more socialism. Rich get richer and poor get poorer and complacent.

 

[Jhhnn]

The game will never be rigged in favor of the poor or middle class. It's up to the poor and middle class to fend for themselves and pull themselves out of the systemic problems. How do they do this? In most cases it is by educating themselves and then using the knowledge that you gained to go from a loser in the game to a winner.

None of that is really true. The middle and working class made substantially greater economic gains than the wealthy during the 1950-1980 timeframe than in the 1980-2010 period. There were a variety of policy mechanisms that promoted it. A largely closed economy, strong labor unions, high taxes on very large incomes, & much stronger financial regulations among them.

All too many people see only the ways to prosper within a given system rather than seeing the system. In Medieval Europe, the system was created to benefit Royalty at the expense of the rest. In the industrial revolution, it benefited capitalist wealth holders. In the antebellum South, it benefited slave holders. In N Korea, it benefits the Kim family & cronies. In each of those systems, the people at the bottom saw ways to improve themselves, even if only slightly.

In modern representative democracies, the people have the ability to change the game, the system, to benefit more or fewer people. That was the basis of the American revolution itself. And that has happened more than once in this country, in the progressive era & the trust busters of 100 years ago, in the New Deal, and in the civil rights acts, as well.

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

 

[dmcowen674]

None of that is really true. The middle and working class made substantially greater economic gains than the wealthy during the 1950-1980 timeframe than in the 1980-2010 period. There were a variety of policy mechanisms that promoted it. A largely closed economy, strong labor unions, high taxes on very large incomes, & much stronger financial regulations among them.

All too many people see only the ways to prosper within a given system rather than seeing the system. In Medieval Europe, the system was created to benefit Royalty at the expense of the rest. In the industrial revolution, it benefited capitalist wealth holders. In the antebellum South, it benefited slave holders. In N Korea, it benefits the Kim family & cronies. In each of those systems, the people at the bottom saw ways to improve themselves, even if only slightly.

In modern representative democracies, the people have the ability to change the game, the system, to benefit more or fewer people. That was the basis of the American revolution itself. And that has happened more than once in this country, in the progressive era & the trust busters of 100 years ago, in the New Deal, and in the civil rights acts, as well.

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

Damn you are are a roll today.

Really pissing the likes of Cad off. :thumbsup:

 

[bfdd]

Jhhnn, I believe to many people want to much for to little work. If you're not willing to break your back earning your money, the money you have shouldn't break your back when holding it.

 

[Engineer]

I did not get a raise.

The company I work for has only 6 employees and doesn't offer health insurance. My private premiums did jump almost 20% though.

The price of things did go up.

How did I accomplish what? These are facts. I don't judge the quality of my life by the size of my paycheck. I find other ways to lift myself up. I saved my money. I looked for ways to improve my life without having to cry about how unfair it is that someone else has more than me. Despite the fact that I didn't get a raise and that my insurance went up, I still managed to save money and come out ahead this year. I probably worked harder this past year than any previous year in order to accomplish it.

But I guess that since I am better off this year than last year, I must have screwed a bunch of people to get where I am. Isn't that the point you were trying to make? Anyone who had a good year last year did it at the expense of everyone else?
"No surprise that's for sure except of course of you are a rich Republican ATPNer."

While I commend you on working hard, your situation sounds exactly like a middle class person who has lost ground during 2011 (if not more). You're exactly what the OP is all about, IMO. I also think that this is becoming systemic and will eventually hit a head. Can't keep tearing the foundation out at the bottom and middle and not expect the building to fall at some point. Only those at the top with helicopters will get out.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

None of that is really true. The middle and working class made substantially greater economic gains than the wealthy during the 1950-1980 timeframe than in the 1980-2010 period. There were a variety of policy mechanisms that promoted it. A largely closed economy, strong labor unions, high taxes on very large incomes, & much stronger financial regulations among them.

All too many people see only the ways to prosper within a given system rather than seeing the system. In Medieval Europe, the system was created to benefit Royalty at the expense of the rest. In the industrial revolution, it benefited capitalist wealth holders. In the antebellum South, it benefited slave holders. In N Korea, it benefits the Kim family & cronies. In each of those systems, the people at the bottom saw ways to improve themselves, even if only slightly.

In modern representative democracies, the people have the ability to change the game, the system, to benefit more or fewer people. That was the basis of the American revolution itself. And that has happened more than once in this country, in the progressive era & the trust busters of 100 years ago, in the New Deal, and in the civil rights acts, as well.

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

A major concern is that our economy is based on the Pozni scheme of consumerism. For the better part of the last hundred years depends more and more on us buying things we don't need and indeed do not really want after the fact. In the early phase it allowed improved transportation, communication, food, etc. Now? The ability to text more? A nicer monitor? A faster video card? 600 channels of garbage? Manypeople will
cry if they lost any of those. Well most "stuff" is just that and it will be made cheaper elsewhere. The greatest problem is that a vast number of jobs are redundant. China doesn't need you. Automation doesn't require you. This goes beyond what we're been discussing and most definitely beyond dems and reps.

 

[Infohawk]

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

The problem is partisan hacks on both sides blame each other when there's larger systemic
issues like the diminishing natural resources and outsourcing going on.

The greatest problem is that a vast number of jobs are redundant. China doesn't need you. Automation doesn't require you. This goes beyond what we're been discussing and most definitely beyond dems and reps.

Right except I don't see how the consumer economy is a ponzi scheme. It gave tremendous growth. A lot of basic wealth comes from consumerism like dishwashing machines and cell phones. These are things that people seem to use a lot.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

None of that is really true. The middle and working class made substantially greater economic gains than the wealthy during the 1950-1980 timeframe than in the 1980-2010 period. There were a variety of policy mechanisms that promoted it. A largely closed economy, strong labor unions, high taxes on very large incomes, & much stronger financial regulations among them.

All too many people see only the ways to prosper within a given system rather than seeing the system. In Medieval Europe, the system was created to benefit Royalty at the expense of the rest. In the industrial revolution, it benefited capitalist wealth holders. In the antebellum South, it benefited slave holders. In N Korea, it benefits the Kim family & cronies. In each of those systems, the people at the bottom saw ways to improve themselves, even if only slightly.

In modern representative democracies, the people have the ability to change the game, the system, to benefit more or fewer people. That was the basis of the American revolution itself. And that has happened more than once in this country, in the progressive era & the trust busters of 100 years ago, in the New Deal, and in the civil rights acts, as well.

It has shifted back the other way over the last 30 years, simply because enough people forgot some of the things their grandparents & great grandparents learned long ago.

No shit sherlock. The late 40 and early 50s is when the guys were coming back from the war and the advent of the 2 income households across this country. Ofcourse the middle class made a jump - but only a moron(like leftists) would use those boom years of the middle class as the baseline. The things you listed don't come close to having the impact the 2 income household did.

I do agree, too many people like you and dave have forgotten what your parents and grandparents learned and instead want the gov't to solve your problems and feel entitled to things instead of working hard being happy with what you have.

 

[cybrsage]

Explain what you did different from the rest of middle class Americans that are getting kicked down.

Did you get a raise?

Did your health benefits not go up?

Did prices of just about everything not go up for you?

How did you accomplish all that?

I got a raise.
The cost of my health benefits went down.
The cost of gasoline went down this year, I also started using public transportation, which allows me to register my car as pleasure only thereby greatly reducing my insurance costs.
I accomplished this by being good at my job and not just accepting the status quo as something I can do nothing about.

 

[cybrsage]

Jhhnn, I believe to many people want to much for to little work. If you're not willing to break your back earning your money, the money you have shouldn't break your back when holding it.

:thumbsup:

 

[Jhhnn]

No shit sherlock. The late 40 and early 50s is when the guys were coming back from the war and the advent of the 2 income households across this country. Ofcourse the middle class made a jump - but only a moron(like leftists) would use those boom years of the middle class as the baseline. The things you listed don't come close to having the impact the 2 income household did.

I do agree, too many people like you and dave have forgotten what your parents and grandparents learned and instead want the gov't to solve your problems and feel entitled to things instead of working hard being happy with what you have.

Too close to the truth for a semi professional propagandist like yourself, CSG? Obviously-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Share_top_1_percent.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Compression

Two income families weren't the norm, either, until sometime after 1975 or so-

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TCANv-2RWjI/AAAAAAAANxY/lux19E4YhME/s1600/jobs.jpg

What does guys coming back from the war have to do with it, anyway? We have a fair amount of that today, except that they're coming home in the aftermath of the greatest credit bubble flimflam in the history of finance. Guess what, guys? The Job Creators! are on vacation, counting their gold on the beach somewhere in the Caribbean, and, uhh, they'll get back to you just as soon as they can.

It also requires an incredible amount of chutzpah to cast aspersions wrt govt solving problems when it was govt that solved the problems of the Great Depression and the incredible disparity of wealth and income that spawned it. Govt creates the policy that provides the economic environment we live in. Prior to the Great Depression, we let business act alone in that respect, and it crashed. When we let that happen again during the Bush years, we got the same results. Only a complete one eighty of Bush Admin non-interventionist policy and action by the FRB prevented TBTF from actually failing, a la the early 1930's.

You really should know better than to pull that kind of empty argument out of your nether orifice.

OTOH, when that's all you've got, that's all you've got, so you might as well run it up the flagpole & see who'll salute, huh?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Too close to the truth for a semi professional propagandist like yourself, CSG? Obviously-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Share_top_1_percent.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Compression

Two income families weren't the norm, either, until sometime after 1975 or so-

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TCANv-2RWjI/AAAAAAAANxY/lux19E4YhME/s1600/jobs.jpg

What does guys coming back from the war have to do with it, anyway? We have a fair amount of that today, except that they're coming home in the aftermath of the greatest credit bubble flimflam in the history of finance. Guess what, guys? The Job Creators! are on vacation, counting their gold on the beach somewhere in the Caribbean, and, uhh, they'll get back to you just as soon as they can.

It also requires an incredible amount of chutzpah to cast aspersions wrt govt solving problems when it was govt that solved the problems of the Great Depression and the incredible disparity of wealth and income that spawned it. Govt creates the policy that provides the economic environment we live in. Prior to the Great Depression, we let business act alone in that respect, and it crashed. When we let that happen again during the Bush years, we got the same results. Only a complete one eighty of Bush Admin non-interventionist policy and action by the FRB prevented TBTF from actually failing, a la the early 1930's.

You really should know better than to pull that kind of empty argument out of your nether orifice.

OTOH, when that's all you've got, that's all you've got, so you might as well run it up the flagpole & see who'll salute, huh?

Guys coming back from war have to do with it? Are you serious? Who do you think filled many positions when the guys went off to war? That's right - women. Christ you are stupid. I suppose they just went back home to the kitchen... :roll;
I didn't say it was the "norm", but it expanded significantly which drove consumer demand, urban sprawl, etc.

BTW, your Great Depression claims and the blabbering after that is laughable, but you can hold that ignorant opinion if you wish.

 

[gingermeggs]

only when you drop the partisan shades can you truly grasp the issues plaguing this country.

may you have the gift of vision in a world blinded by partisan politics this year.

merry christmas.

YES....then he would see he is living in a synarchy of the banking cartel, who run your government against you; repub or democrats, doesn't matter they both dance around the real reform required to change the direct of the nation, indeed the betterment of humankind and the rest of the world too along with it.
Someone mentioned taking up arms earlier in this post-
But first you need to identify who these individuals are to be able to think about "take em' out!"
This is how I know the "terrorists" are a sham, because they never kill anybody that real matters in this world the ones who are controlling this power hierarchy.
They are the heartless scum of the earth and will need your attention someday or you will pay them with some of your blood and your soul.
I hope next year is about change in a positive direction for all the peoples with a true heart.
Cheers,
Damon

 

[bradley]

I respond to what people post. You must not post like a Democrat.

He's a RIPO... a Republican in post only. Though I don't believe you even read what people post.

Political parties are designed to serve their own self-interests. Their only real success is fungible in making you think it's ALL about you. By now, the hook is fully set.

 

[davmat787]

He's a RIPO... a Republican in post only. Though I don't believe you even read what people post.

Political parties are designed to serve their own self-interests. Their only real success is fungible in making you think it's ALL about you. By now, the hook is fully set.

I am? What do you base that on, the many times I have said partisanship is one of our biggest problems? Or the many times I have asked how anyone can think that any single ideology or party has all the right answers?

That comment that McOwned made just shows he filters everything based on if he thinks someone is left or right or whatever, not on the actual content or merit of the comment.

 

[bradley]

I am? What do you base that on, the many times I have said partisanship is one of our biggest problems? Or the many times I have asked how anyone can think that any single ideology or party has all the right answers?

That comment that McOwned made just shows he filters everything based on if he thinks someone is left or right or whatever, not on the actual content or merit of the comment.

You are a DIPO then. Who cares. Anyone with half a brain views political parties as a Trojan. Lighten up Francis.