2010 GX460 -Consumer Reports "DO NOT BUY"

[LTC8K6]

Even the pretty much identical Toyota version did not oversteer like that, so it's probably just the ESC programming. It's either incorrectly programmed, or it's set up to allow you to hang the tail out for some reason. It could even just be the one vehicle they had for all we know.

 

[yh125d]

With the way rich wives drive these things they need all the traction and stability control they can get

 

[Estrella]

2010 GTX460 -Consumer Reports "DO NOT BUY"

There, fixed it.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I can imagine that could end pretty badly for a driver. The natural instinct when you have to unexpectedly turn harder in a corner is to lift off the gas.

Which is why people get into trouble when they switch off these devices, and they switch them off because guys who actually know how to drive a car without stability control tell them that they should be able to switch them off to get the most out of the car...ie. Top Gear and the writers at most of the well known auto rags.

Sorry, that was kind of off topic.

 

[exar333]

Even the pretty much identical Toyota version did not oversteer like that, so it's probably just the ESC programming. It's either incorrectly programmed, or it's set up to allow you to hang the tail out for some reason. It could even just be the one vehicle they had for all we know.

If you don't realize the importance of software in modern cars, then I don't believe you understand the implications software errors can bring. Toyota has a sh!t record for software recently, and hopefully this reiterates to them that they need to be much more mindful of testing their software. It doesn't do any good to log 1000's of hours of driving tests and then change braking/ESC software and then not run full regression tests.

If you still don't think software is important; how about the importance of "just the flight systems" in an airplane? Care to be 30,000 ft when a "bug" is found? I doubt it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Omg if i turn too fast in a huge suv itll flip over? Wtf?

Idiots

they aren't tracking the SUV, they're mimicking a possible panic scenario.
and no other SUV failed the test.

who's the idiot now?

 

[ElFenix]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36457556

apparently the ESC didn't kick in and the land barge started fishtailing.

 

[sandorski]

When will it end?

 

[coxmaster]

When will it end?

When the brakes work, and the accelerator isnt stuck...

:hmm::hmm::awe:

 

[Red Squirrel]

lol. They have a testing plant where I live. They should perhaps start using it.

 

[Occ]

How serious is this, really? Like older cars didn't have ESC, wouldn't they behave in the same fashion? The other car they mentioned in the article apparently actually had wheels coming off the ground, and I'm pretty sure if I did that in my '97 Explorer it would flip in an eye blink.

By the way...

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2067066

 

[ElFenix]

By the way...

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2067066

crap!

 

[EightySix Four]

Damn, I was going to buy one this week.

Edit: holy shit the threads were merged, what a mind fuck. I was like... I didn't post this in the other thread!

 

[Bignate603]

How serious is this, really? Like older cars didn't have ESC, wouldn't they behave in the same fashion? The other car they mentioned in the article apparently actually had wheels coming off the ground, and I'm pretty sure if I did that in my '97 Explorer it would flip in an eye blink.

It used to be relatively common. However, these land barges have different driving dynamics than most other cars and without their electronic nannies they can have some pretty nasty quirks. The biggest issue is that every other SUV like it has sorted out the problem so it doesn't happen. If the Lexus is the ONLY one to still have the issue it's a pretty strong mark against it.

 

[EightySix Four]

It used to be relatively common. However, these land barges have different driving dynamics than most other cars and without their electronic nannies they can have some pretty nasty quirks.

Yeah, the suspension is tuned to be "sporty" and the resulting instability makes up for it with electronics, much like modern jet fighters would be nearly impossible to fly with direct access to the flight controls, hence fly by wire.

 

[LTC8K6]

If you don't realize the importance of software in modern cars, then I don't believe you understand the implications software errors can bring. Toyota has a sh!t record for software recently, and hopefully this reiterates to them that they need to be much more mindful of testing their software. It doesn't do any good to log 1000's of hours of driving tests and then change braking/ESC software and then not run full regression tests.

If you still don't think software is important; how about the importance of "just the flight systems" in an airplane? Care to be 30,000 ft when a "bug" is found? I doubt it.

Not sure where all that came from...

We don't even know if there's really any ESC problem here at all, or if it's isolated to the test vehicle, or what.

But I am not aware of any bad Toyota rep for problems with vehicle software programming. The Prius problem was very unusual, and the lack of a brake/throttle override in other vehicles was not an error.

I drive a Grand Cherokee with all of the same electronic driving gizmos as the Lexus in question, so I am very familiar with them, and with the quirks of CAN bus vehicles.

 

[AMCRambler]

This thing doesn't have full time AWD? I thought most land barges these days do, which would tend to cancel oversteer somewhat if it was doing traction management correctly.

 

[Raduque]

Did anyone else think that looked fun as hell to do?

So... factory drift SUV?

 

[LTC8K6]

This thing doesn't have full time AWD? I thought most land barges these days do, which would tend to cancel oversteer somewhat if it was doing traction management correctly.

My 08 GC is full time 4 wheel drive, but I have never tried that...

 

[StageLeft]

My 08 GC is full time 4 wheel drive, but I have never tried that...

Do it tonight and link us to the youtube.

 

[EightySix Four]

Not sure where all that came from...

We don't even know if there's really any ESC problem here at all, or if it's isolated to the test vehicle, or what.

But I am not aware of any bad Toyota rep for problems with vehicle software programming. The Prius problem was very unusual, and the lack of a brake/throttle override in other vehicles was not an error.

I drive a Grand Cherokee with all of the same electronic driving gizmos as the Lexus in question, so I am very familiar with them, and with the quirks of CAN bus vehicles.

Just because your vehicle has CAN bus does not mean you are familiar with the quirks.

CAN bus = x86 instruction set, many manufacturer use it and produce equipment for it
Stability control hardware = AMD, Intel, etc.different companies manufacture the hardware used to read te data and control the parts of the vehicle necessary.
Manufacturer program = Linux, windows, os x, etc. These all operate on any machine which follows certain standards (like x86) but are made by each DIFFERENT vendor for each different vehicle.

So saying what you said is the equivalent of saying that because you use an AMD computer running Windows 7, you understand the problem an intel computer running os x is having with it's OS.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just because your vehicle has CAN bus does not mean you are familiar with the quirks.

Still not sure what you mean, but whatever.

My Jeep has lots of little quirks related to the CAN bus system. I can assure you I am quite familiar with them. Want to hear about a few? I bet not...

My Jeep has all the same stability and traction controls the Lexus has as well. It apparently passed the test that the Lexus failed, though I am not brave enough to try it.

Besides, I already risked my new Jeep to help Toyota, so it's someone else's turn.

 

[Knavish]

CR: "If a vehicle is not a sports car, it better understeer like a 1990 Buick sedan or it's unsafe at any speed!"

 

[EightySix Four]

Still not sure what you mean, but whatever.

My Jeep has lots of little quirks related to the CAN bus system. I can assure you I am quite familiar with them. Want to hear about a few? I bet not...

My Jeep has all the same stability and traction controls the Lexus has as well. It apparently passed the test that the Lexus failed, though I am not brave enough to try it.

Besides, I already risked my new Jeep to help Toyota, so it's someone else's turn.

I don't think you are getting it. Just because you have stability control does not mean your stability control was programmed the same way, or even has the same parts for that matter. They are manufacturer dependent and they tune it for different performance on different vehicles.

Your jeep has been programmed differently than this Lexus.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't think you are getting it. Just because you have stability control does not mean your stability control was programmed the same way, or even has the same parts for that matter. They are manufacturer dependent and they tune it for different performance on different vehicles.

Your jeep has been programmed differently than this Lexus.

Where did I say my Jeep was programmed the same or had the same parts?

Since I have already posted about the programming of the Lexus ESC, I'm not sure where you are coming from...

I am fully aware that the Lexus is likely programmed differently for it's target drivers and pointed this out more than once in the thread.

The Lexus is also likely programmed different than it's Toyota sibling.

Since I can select a few levels of intervention of the ESC on my Jeep, including completely off, I am also aware somewhat of how those levels effect it's handling. I'm not fully aware because I have never floored the Hemi and banzai'd a corner.

Since my Jeep has significantly more HP and torque than the Lexus, I can only imagine what such a manuever would feel like, having seen what CR did with the Lexus.