2008 VP Debate Thread Part 2

[Dari]

I stand corrected.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: dphantom
Palin did fine and so did Biden. Neither gaffed and neither hit a home run. Palin gained credibility by holding her own as I expected and Biden did well to avoid the foot in mouth syndrome.

I particulalry liked their after debate talk on stage with their respective families. Both are classy people and I wish those two were running for President and not the empty suit (Obama) and the old guy (McCain).

This really struck a chord with me, too. As a McCain supporter, Palin's stock went down in my book, but not by much. She was simply too rehearsed. I'm also officially sick of the "Maverick" tag. She couldn't seem to understand the rationale behind Obama's nay vote on troop funding. Biden and Obama clearly don't represent McCain's nay vote as an unwillingness to provide troop funding. I understood Biden's response, and was rather irritated when Palin tried to come back to it a second time in a debate. I feel the same way with regard to Biden's charge about McCain's tax breaks for the oil companies. We're not quite painting the whole picture here, folks.

The civility displayed on stage was immensely refreshing. Of the four people, McCain is my #1, but Biden would be my #2. Obama comes in at a distant #3 and Palin... yeah... not quite ready. I was impressed with Biden's restraint. There were several times when Palin's inexperience at that level was ripe for the picking, but he kept his cool.

Also, I was impressed with Ifill.

I agree with you about the civility of the debate; both candidates were friendly with each other, unlike the McCain / Obama debate where McCain kept looking down, scribbling notes, and not looking at Obama at all.

 

[abaez]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
As a non US citizen, I can just say that it was interesting but it's not really a debate. It's just a bunch of talking points from both sides

The format should be more like the Sarkozy - Segolene debate from last year or the Le Pen - Sarkozy debate from 2003. The difference in style and dynamics is day and night compared with the American format.

Damn, Palin has nothing on Segolene in the hotness and intelligence department.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Juddog

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: dphantom
Palin did fine and so did Biden. Neither gaffed and neither hit a home run. Palin gained credibility by holding her own as I expected and Biden did well to avoid the foot in mouth syndrome.

I particulalry liked their after debate talk on stage with their respective families. Both are classy people and I wish those two were running for President and not the empty suit (Obama) and the old guy (McCain).

This really struck a chord with me, too. As a McCain supporter, Palin's stock went down in my book, but not by much. She was simply too rehearsed. I'm also officially sick of the "Maverick" tag. She couldn't seem to understand the rationale behind Obama's nay vote on troop funding. Biden and Obama clearly don't represent McCain's nay vote as an unwillingness to provide troop funding. I understood Biden's response, and was rather irritated when Palin tried to come back to it a second time in a debate. I feel the same way with regard to Biden's charge about McCain's tax breaks for the oil companies. We're not quite painting the whole picture here, folks.

The civility displayed on stage was immensely refreshing. Of the four people, McCain is my #1, but Biden would be my #2. Obama comes in at a distant #3 and Palin... yeah... not quite ready. I was impressed with Biden's restraint. There were several times when Palin's inexperience at that level was ripe for the picking, but he kept his cool.

Also, I was impressed with Ifill.

I agree with you about the civility of the debate; both candidates were friendly with each other, unlike the McCain / Obama debate where McCain kept looking down, scribbling notes, and not looking at Obama at all.

Well if you were getting your ass kicked like McCain is you'd probably be a little cranky too. On the other hand Palin was just pleased as punch she didn't make a complete fool out of herself and Biden was happy that he was facing a lightweight that he easily out debated.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Juddog
Palin was all about the talking points and rehashing what she was told to say. When it came time to drill into specifics, she had none - she simply diverted the question to another talking point.

That was the one thing that really stood out for me as well. Whereas Biden would often change the subject too, he would offer at least a cursory answer to the actual question first. Paling regularly launched straight into a rehearsed talking point without even pretending to answer the question.

That said, neither candidate made any major gaffes. I wish Biden had been a bit more aggressive with Palin, but he probably did the right thing by focusing on McCain. Biden clearly came off as more capable and better prepared to be President, but Palin did well enough that I doubt she cost McCain much support, if any.

Her use of cutsey phrases like "dog gonnit", combined with her winking, made me want to drown a bag of kittens and punch the TV screen until my knuckles were bloody. This is not how a potential president should act; with John McCain as old as he is, and having already had several bouts of cancer, the likelyhood of her taking over scared me. Imagine her trying to talk to Putin or another world leader like that.

ROFL. That really drove my wife crazy. At one point she burst out, "Ugh, I just want to slap her!" As others mentioned, Palin may actually be appealing to many of the same people who liked Bush. Their styles and mannerisms are similar. I never cared for it personally.

 

[Thump553]

Both did substantially better than expected. Biden was really at the top of his gameboth folksy and intelligent at the same time, and in total command of the facts and issues, did a a superb (non-professorial) job of explaining why policy A is the best course.

Palin had a huge set of tasks ahead of her. In addition to the usual, she had to bring herself up to speed on national issues, and given her unenviable record of gaffes recently, convince an increasingly skeptical America that she was more than a political gimmick. I won't go as far as saying she did that, but she certainly got a good start. She was too heavy on the slogans and rote memorization, but at least she kept her snarky comments down.

In the end, though this will be like any other VP debate-forgotten almost immediately. Remember when Lloyd Bensen literally mopped up the floor with Dan Qualye? Qualye's ticket still won.

I think after today's House vote on the bailout bill and whatever reaction there is to that in the markets and by the public, this debate will be essentially forgotten.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Both did substantially better than expected. Biden was really at the top of his gameboth folksy and intelligent at the same time, and in total command of the facts and issues, did a a superb (non-professorial) job of explaining why policy A is the best course.

Palin had a huge set of tasks ahead of her. In addition to the usual, she had to bring herself up to speed on national issues, and given her unenviable record of gaffes recently, convince an increasingly skeptical America that she was more than a political gimmick. I won't go as far as saying she did that, but she certainly got a good start. She was too heavy on the slogans and rote memorization, but at least she kept her snarky comments down.

In the end, though this will be like any other VP debate-forgotten almost immediately. Remember when Lloyd Bensen literally mopped up the floor with Dan Qualye? Qualye's ticket still won.

I think after today's House vote on the bailout bill and whatever reaction there is to that in the markets and by the public, this debate will be essentially forgotten.

Probably but one things for certain, the bump McCain got by picking Palin is history and will remain so. She is no longer an asset and the best McCain's camp can hope for is that she doesn't become too much of a liability.

 

[TraumaRN]

Palin drove me nuts last night. And I wasn't alone. Was watching in a room with like 8 people. Most of us were moaning and groaning with her folksy act. I dont want Joe Sixpack Soccer mom as my freakin VP. I want someone who looks presidential. I want someone who speaks presidential. No someone who rehearses lines, ignores questions and tries to essentially act like all the bad American cliches out there. It was almost embarrassing for me to watch her at times.

I admit, I'm voting Obama this year and had decided that after the first presidential debate, but the thought of her being in the white house scares the hell out of me and honestly does nothing for our world image. Slam me if you want, but she furthered the stereotype of the 'stupid American' tonight.

 

[Zedtom]

Sarah Palin must understand that smiling when talking about war and nuclear weapons makes viewers uneasy. It promotes the idea that you can clean up any mess with a quick spray of 409 and wipe with a paper towel.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA
Palin drove me nuts last night. And I wasn't alone. Was watching in a room with like 8 people. Most of us were moaning and groaning with her folksy act. I dont want Joe Sixpack Soccer mom as my freakin VP. I want someone who looks presidential. I want someone who speaks presidential. No someone who rehearses lines, ignores questions and tries to essentially act like all the bad American cliches out there. It was almost embarrassing for me to watch her at times.

I admit, I'm voting Obama this year and had decided that after the first presidential debate, but the thought of her being in the white house scares the hell out of me and honestly does nothing for our world image. Slam me if you want, but she furthered the stereotype of the 'stupid American' tonight.

I don't care if the Veep looks like Woody Allen as long as they don't talk and think like Woody the Woodpecker.

-Robert

 

[stlcardinals]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: stlcardinals
Pelosi could only become President if both the President and Vice-President died at the same time.
If the vice-president becomes president, they nominate a vice-president who then requires a majority vote from both the Senate and the House.
25th amendment.

You know facts and post them without partisan comment or insulting the poster you answer.


What are you doing in P&N?

Entertainment.

 

[Xavier434]

Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful for a presidential debate. The white flag thing awful too and it was clear that she was just trying to confuse those in America who are nearly as well informed as most of those on P&N. There is no surrender here from either side. Basically the way I see it is that Obama/Biden support shifting us much more towards the defensive than McCain/Palin are planning. When the hell did that become surrendering?

 

[sammyunltd]

This country is really going down the drain.

To say that this debate (if it is one, and I'm not even sure it qualifies as one) is a DRAW between Biden and Palin or to say that Palin won, is just plain absurdity. It shows how narrow-minded most of the American population is nowadays. You rather vote for your own camp even when they are incompetent or wrong rather than to see what the opposition is made of.

How can a VP candidate with expectations SO LOW can even be considered for the job? It pains me to see that the POTUS and VPOTUS spots are not given any respect. We had 8 years of Average Joe and look how well it turned out? The worst part is, if you are well educated and well-mannered and intelligent, you're called an elitist that does not connect with average people. That's bad...

Unfortunately, it really looks like the USA is doomed (with that way of thinking).

 

[Genx87]

I have to say Biden is a classic. He is the politician you wan to hate but he is so off the cuff and imperfect you cant.

At the end of the day this election cycle will have done one thing for me no matter who gets elected. My preconceptions about Biden were wrong. I have a new respect for him even if our opinions on govt are different.

 

[Xavier434]

Oh and the other thing which scared me a lot is that Palin said the following:

I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are.

I don't like this. It makes me uncomfortable in regards to how our system of checks and balances are supposed to work. It makes me believe that she is striving for more power in the Senate. Our country heavily depends on our system of checks and balances for survival and I really do not want anything to damage that which includes allowing the VP to have too much power and influence over the Senate. There is a proper balance to maintain and Palin just doesn't strike me as the type who believes in the kind of balance which I think is best for this country especially which makes statements like that combined with her history of how she prefers to use her power.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Oh and the other thing which scared me a lot is that Palin said the following:

I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are.

I don't like this. It makes me uncomfortable in regards to how our system of checks and balances are supposed to work. It makes me believe that she is striving for more power in the Senate. Our country heavily depends on our system of checks and balances for survival and I really do not want anything to damage that which includes allowing the VP to have too much power and influence over the Senate. There is a proper balance to maintain and Palin just doesn't strike me as the type who believes in the kind of balance which I think is best for this country.

How much more power is she going to get that isnt already available to Cheney or any other VP?

It isnt like Palin will wake up on day one, walk into the senate, and make up new powers.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful

what specifically pissed you off about Palin praising Biden's wife for being a teacher for 30 years and saying there's a special place in heaven for her because of that?

 

[evident]

I want to point something out. If the R's want to talk about unfair, think about the attitude of the media and people prior to the debate. Palin proved to be incompetent in the last couple weeks, so everyone is just rooting for her to not fuck up. Now, even though Biden clearly was the better debater everyone is giving palin a ton of credit simply because she didn't F up. she only used her talking points for the most part, and when she went on a tangent, it was about how she wished the VP spot had more power, giving more power to the executive branch. wtf? im surprised not many ppl picked up on this but this was where biden gets the most credit, pointing out cheney was a terrible VP.

The bars weren't set equally for either candidates, and I think the debate mod did a terrible job in following up with her answers. Its sad that facts and discourse doesn't really matter, but how you exceed people's expectations :thumbsdown:

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Biden was knowledgeable, and he was pretty restrained ? didn?t really say one stupid thing. He did his fair share of saying what he wanted to say without really answering the question. But Palin did that all night. At one point she said something like, ?I'm not going to answer the question the way you or the way the moderator want me to ?.? I was thinking, then why the hell are you here?

I personally don't think Golly-Gee-Wizz talk belongs in a vice presidential debate. It makes it feel like I cannot trust what she is saying. It takes away from the substance of what she says. I'm not looking for her to connect with soccer moms, I'm looking for leadership and a firm grasp of the issues this country needs to concentrate on. Golly Gee Wizz Beaver, did you do your chores? - has little place in the politics of high office.

Her incessant, almost overly excessive reading of her crib notes gave her little room for her golly gee wizz comments. She needed to redirect her thought pattern halfway through the debate to seemingly increase her golly gee wizz attitude because she knew she was completely out matched with Biden, she kept falling back on golly gee wizz as some sort of comfort blanket.

She looked good on the surface because she has so little self-awareness that she exudes confidence. Anyone who looks beneath her perky "ya, hey dere" exterior will immediately see her inner Shit Kicker. Which is fine, as long as you're not riding shotgun to the President.

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: evident
I want to point something out. If the R's want to talk about unfair, think about the attitude of the media and people prior to the debate. Palin proved to be incompetent in the last couple weeks, so everyone is just rooting for her to not fuck up. Now, even though Biden clearly was the better debater everyone is giving palin a ton of credit simply because she didn't F up. she only used her talking points for the most part, and when she went on a tangent, it was about how she wished the VP spot had more power, giving more power to the executive branch. wtf? im surprised not many ppl picked up on this but this was where biden gets the most credit, pointing out cheney was a terrible VP.

The bars weren't set equally for either candidates, and I think the debate mod did a terrible job in following up with her answers. Its sad that facts and discourse doesn't really matter, but how you exceed people's expectations :thumbsdown:

^^This^^

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Genx87
How much more power is she going to get that isnt already available to Cheney or any other VP?

It isnt like Palin will wake up on day one, walk into the senate, and make up new powers.

I already do not like how Cheney opted to use his power. "Available" is one thing. How you use it and how you crave it is something else. Keep in mind that I have no proof that she will do anything that I consider abusive. This is mostly a feeling based her words and actions in the past. I am not condemning her. I just don't trust her.

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful

what specifically pissed you off about Palin praising Biden's wife for being a teacher for 30 years and saying there's a special place in heaven for her because of that?

I already told you that. Specifically, I thought it was a distasteful thing to say during a presidential debate. There is a time and a place for everything. We call it tact. There are times and places where what she said would have been perfectly fine in my book, but that was not the time. People view tact in different ways because it is clearly subjective. I fully expect there to be those out there which disagree with me on this matter, but the bottom line is that I didn't like and I am sure there are plenty of others who agree. How many others is the question. An even better question would be to ask how many others agree with me that are currently sitting on the fence, but plan to vote. We will never know the answer to that.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful

what specifically pissed you off about Palin praising Biden's wife for being a teacher for 30 years and saying there's a special place in heaven for her because of that?

Probably because she used Biden's wife as a jumping point to pander to her base (religious right).

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful

what specifically pissed you off about Palin praising Biden's wife for being a teacher for 30 years and saying there's a special place in heaven for her because of that?

Probably because she used Biden's wife as a jumping point to pander to her base (religious right).

Yes, that is part of it. I didn't outright say that in my last post because I wanted to show how generally such a thing in neither factually right or wrong, but you are correct.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Two things (amongst many) that Palin said which really pissed me off was the comment about Biden's wife and being Heaven as well as the waving the white flag of surrender comment. The wife one was extremely distasteful

what specifically pissed you off about Palin praising Biden's wife for being a teacher for 30 years and saying there's a special place in heaven for her because of that?

Probably because she used Biden's wife as a jumping point to pander to her base (religious right).

That was tame compared to Kerry's attempt to disuade those same voters by bringing up Cheney's gay daughter.

I think Palin was trying to be sincere in her praise for his wife's work in public education. Palin's parents worked for the school system. Of course it was a stepping stone. Everything you say in these things is.

/shrug

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Biden was knowledgeable, and he was pretty restrained ? didn?t really say one stupid thing. He did his fair share of saying what he wanted to say without really answering the question. But Palin did that all night. At one point she said something like, ?I'm not going to answer the question the way you or the way the moderator want me to ?.? I was thinking, then why the hell are you here?

I personally don't think Golly-Gee-Wizz talk belongs in a vice presidential debate. It makes it feel like I cannot trust what she is saying. It takes away from the substance of what she says. I'm not looking for her to connect with soccer moms, I'm looking for leadership and a firm grasp of the issues this country needs to concentrate on. Golly Gee Wizz Beaver, did you do your chores? - has little place in the politics of high office.

Her incessant, almost overly excessive reading of her crib notes gave her little room for her golly gee wizz comments. She needed to redirect her thought pattern halfway through the debate to seemingly increase her golly gee wizz attitude because she knew she was completely out matched with Biden, she kept falling back on golly gee wizz as some sort of comfort blanket.

She looked good on the surface because she has so little self-awareness that she exudes confidence. Anyone who looks beneath her perky "ya, hey dere" exterior will immediately see her inner Shit Kicker. Which is fine, as long as you're not riding shotgun to the President.

:thumbsup: IMO she's trying WAY too hard to connect with Joe/Jane Sixpack. I suspect she's doing it because that's her only chance but it strikes me as condescending and I would say the same thing if she was Obama's VP pick parroting the (D) party line like someone from the movie Fargo.