2007 Honda Accord Engine Failure

[jeffrey]

My Honda Accord had some debris in the rear valve cover at the time of manufacturing per dealer. This ultimately led to oil being cutoff from the camshaft/seizing which lead to the timing belt failing. When the timing belt failed both front and rear valves were bent by the pistons.

At first dealer said I needed a new engine. Then dealer stated that they were only going to replace the front and rear valve covers/assemblies. I asked that since the pistons did the damage to the valves, wouldn't they also be damaged and need to be replaced too? The dealer said no, but I went up there to take a look for myself. One of the six pistons does have a small chip on the surface recess for the valves. The mechanic said it was fine and that he couldn't authorize the repair.

I asked to speak to the Service Manager who viewed the damanged piston. He stated that he would have someone take a picture and send it to the Honda engineers to review. They do not have a loaner car program and will not pay for a rental. I have not had a car since last Friday.

The chip is small maybe 1/4"-1/2" and just along the outside surface of the recess. Should I take the dealer's word for it, or press the piston issue?


Update:

The dealer stated that the pictures of the piston were sent to Honda tech - still waiting to hear back

I have filed an official case with American Honda to try and get a loaner/rental car.


Conclusion

I have my car back and the rental has been returned, no charge for either one.

The root of the problem was found in the oil pan. The oil pan had metal shavings in it from the installation of a helicoil to compensate for the dealership where I've had my car serviced crossthreading/stripping the oil pan screw. A metal shaving passed through the oil screen and stuck the oil pump in the open position. This caused low oil pressure and the camshaft in the rear cylinder head to seize. The camshaft seizing cased the timing belt to break. Once the timing belt broke the pistons damanged the from and rear valve sets. The dealership repairing my car had the service dealership pay for a new oil pan.

Case closed with American Honda regional manger. Better Business Bureau case was not able to be opened due to my car's mileage. Replacement parts under warranty.

I am satisfied to have this behind me, thanks to all for the support and insights!

 

[evident]

i would press the issue and have them do it right the first time and give you a new engine. honda will cover it since hondas powertrain warranty is 60k . i dont know why they aren't giving you a loaner though. can you go to a different dealer that offers loaner cars? honda is pretty good with providing loaner cars during warranty work.

 

[RGUN]

just FYI, if the chip is deep at all or has created any edges, those will become hotspots and could result in detonation problems later.

 

[jeffrey]

Thanks for all replies so far.

Evident - you are correct with the powertrain warranty fo 5yr/60k miles. I drive about 2k miles/month and so the balance of my factory warranty will expire around July of 2009. I need to ensure that the engine is back to factory spec and not a potential risk after that.

RGUN - thanks for that information.

 

[sdifox]

Press for replacement, cylinder wall damage is not exactly an easy fix.

Unless they are willing to do a bore on all cylinders and upgrade all cams, cylinder head and lifters

A ceased engine and they are not replacing it, wtf.

And they better give you an Accord or better as a loaner. They can charge that to Honda Corp since it is their fault.

 

[bruceb]

Definitely insist on the new engine, as the comments about cylinder wall wear are very true. And as to a Loaner car, walk in the showroom and see the manager. Explain what happened, how the car was bought there and that it is still under waranty. Insist on a Loaner or a demo car while they fix what the Factory messed up. Tell them, you will never buy another Honda again. If need be call Honda customer care. You will get you loaner car if you complain loudly enough (slightly raised voice while other customers are around will do wonders)

 

[crosshairs]

I guess Ill go against the grain here.I don't know where the cylinder walls fit into this discussion.
The chance of them being damaged by this are slim to none.

Timing belts break all the time resulting in valve damage, and a resulting "mark" on the piston crown.

More often than not, this is just a small spot where the carbon has been removed and a small "ding" is seen in the piston.
I have probably replaced upwards of 100 heads on cars with this problem, and not once have I ever replaced a piston.

 

[Arkaign]

That dealer sucks balls. Do you have any other local Honda dealers? Call and speak to their sales managers, tell them you like Honda, but are being mistreated, and ask if they can service you better to earn your future business, I bet dollars to doughnuts that they will go ahead and tell you to come in (they're just going to forward the bill to Honda corporate anyway).

Bruce's advice above is good as well.

One thing I've noticed is that dealers are usually good, mediocre, or poor, and getting a poor one to treat you right is usually not in the cards, particularly for any consistent stretch of interactions.

 

[evident]

them not giving you a loaner is def. not standard practice for honda. You should call up american honda corporate and let them know that the dealer isn't giving you a loaner. also let them know that the dealer is tryin to screw you out of a new engine. AHC should take care of you

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: crosshairs
I guess Ill go against the grain here.I don't know where the cylinder walls fit into this discussion.
The chance of them being damaged by this are slim to none.

Timing belts break all the time resulting in valve damage, and a resulting "mark" on the piston crown.

More often than not, this is just a small spot where the carbon has been removed and a small "ding" is seen in the piston.
I have probably replaced upwards of 100 heads on cars with this problem, and not once have I ever replaced a piston.

The camshaft ceased then the belt broke, very different than the situation that you are describing. Warping 2 valves is scary.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: evident
i would press the issue and have them do it right the first time and give you a new engine. honda will cover it since hondas powertrain warranty is 60k . i dont know why they aren't giving you a loaner though. can you go to a different dealer that offers loaner cars? honda is pretty good with providing loaner cars during warranty work.

My Accord was in for a week for a transmission replacement and the dealer refused to cover even part of my rental despite my demanding it repeatedly.

OP, you can always call Honda of America directly to press for the engine. If you can convince them, the dealer pretty much has to do whatever they are told.

 

[zoiks]

Wow. Honda eh?
Hope you get it resolved. I'm also fighting Mazda right now to have my clutch changed due to a problem they have acknowledged.

 

[jeffrey]

Originally posted by: crosshairs
I guess Ill go against the grain here.I don't know where the cylinder walls fit into this discussion.
The chance of them being damaged by this are slim to none.

Timing belts break all the time resulting in valve damage, and a resulting "mark" on the piston crown.

More often than not, this is just a small spot where the carbon has been removed and a small "ding" is seen in the piston.
I have probably replaced upwards of 100 heads on cars with this problem, and not once have I ever replaced a piston.

Several of the pistons had "dings" where the carbon was removed. I didn't mention them because they were just as you stated, mainly carbon deposit removal. The one pisnton crown has an actual piece of metal missing (albeit small).

 

[bamx2]

Also - Depending on the state you live in , the AG office or Dept of Consumer affairs may be helpful . Don't settle for anyhting less than a new engine and try to get a Hondacare Extended warranty . As this is a big ticket item , you might even consider have an attorney write a letter .

 

[woodie1]

I'd demand a new engine. Unlikely as it seems one of your rods could be bent too.

 

[Chunkee]

Dont you just love how you get treated after you drive the fucker off the lot...sorry, no loaner, no car rental...

how about...we are so sorry about the inconvenience, as a customer we want to make sure you come back to us...here is a loaner til we get this straightened out. Fuckers...

 

[Indyboy2]

I completly argee cyl wall damage is highly unlikley the 2.0 mitsubishi double overhead cam engines were good for this they were a zero tolerance engine also .I purchased a 1991 plymouth laser turbo where the timing belt broke and sent the valves up into the head and marked the pistons up a bit.I just took a red rolox disk and cleaned them up so they were smooth replace the head with a used one i had reconditioned and i drove that car 70k before i sold it
I would recommed pushing for a new engine.1st the warranty on mechanics labor and parts at most dealerships is 12 months 12,000 miles,second if the shop is a flat rate shop the techs are there to make time and money and some of them just dont care especially warranty work i,m not saying all techs are like this but some are.And third i think the reman or new engine will carry a 24k warranty or 2 year.

 

[evident]

if these assholes are still giving you crap. take it to another dealer. your engine should be replaced and you should get a loaner. file a complaint with the dealer about how you have been treated.

 

[jeffrey]

New Update:

"Official" word back from the Honda engineers that the dealership sent the pictures to was to clean all six piston heads of carbon deposits and smooth any rough edges on the one with the small chip. Their stance did not change, no replacement.

I have a case open with Honda North America, but yesterday they stated it would be a day or two till someone would contact me.

I expected more from Honda in many ways.

 

[evident]

see my PM.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: sdifox
The camshaft ceased then the belt broke, very different than the situation that you are describing. Warping 2 valves is scary.

Originally posted by: sdifox
Press for replacement, cylinder wall damage is not exactly an easy fix.

Unless they are willing to do a bore on all cylinders and upgrade all cams, cylinder head and lifters

A ceased engine and they are not replacing it, wtf.

SEIZED, not "ceased". It ran out of oil, it didn't suffer spontaneous total existence failure.

Bending valves is pretty sucky, and I'd wonder about the condition of the valve guides as well, but it wouldn't damage the cylinder wall. However, if a piece of metal is actually missing from the piston, I'd worry about stress risers and piston structural integrity (is there an invisible crack leading from the place the metal is missing?). It would seem strange to me that a valve strike would actually take a chunk out of the piston (OP, are you sure it wasn't a piece of the valve?), and, frankly, I'm surprised that the cost to replace the valvetrain is less than the cost to replace the whole engine, but IF they do the job right, there shouldn't be any long-term consequences.


hopefully.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: sdifox
The camshaft ceased then the belt broke, very different than the situation that you are describing. Warping 2 valves is scary.

Originally posted by: sdifox
Press for replacement, cylinder wall damage is not exactly an easy fix.

Unless they are willing to do a bore on all cylinders and upgrade all cams, cylinder head and lifters

A ceased engine and they are not replacing it, wtf.

SEIZED, not "ceased". It ran out of oil, it didn't suffer spontaneous total existence failure.

Bending valves is pretty sucky, and I'd wonder about the condition of the valve guides as well, but it wouldn't damage the cylinder wall. However, if a piece of metal is actually missing from the piston, I'd worry about stress risers and piston structural integrity (is there an invisible crack leading from the place the metal is missing?). It would seem strange to me that a valve strike would actually take a chunk out of the piston (OP, are you sure it wasn't a piece of the valve?), and, frankly, I'm surprised that the cost to replace the valvetrain is less than the cost to replace the whole engine, but IF they do the job right, there shouldn't be any long-term consequences.


hopefully.

oops, don't know why I typed the wrong word, twice. I should know better

He said there are pieces missing from the cylinder head and that might have scratched the walls, depending on luck.

 

[Throckmorton]

Why are some of you saying the cylinder wall shouldn't be damaged, knowing that a pistol slammed into a valve and a chunk of the piston came off? Where do you think it went?

Honda apparently sucks now? Why would they not give you a loaner? That's like refusing to fulfill the warranty. THEIR manufacturing defect caused this problem, and they're incurring a cost to you. WTF?

 

[Vette73]

As a former autotech I would say not to worry about it and it sounds like they will polish the ding which is what I have done in the past as well. The engine could go another 100k+ after the repair.



As a car owner I would not be happy and at LEAST ask for and try to get a extended warranty on the engine. This could be your backup plan. If they say no then ask for them to extend the powertrain warranty for free if they believe the work being done is ok to them.

 

[jeffrey]

Update

One of the replacement cylinder heads is missing a part, so it might be another day. Yes, that's right, the replacement part is not right.

Also, Honda of Noth America contacted me for follow-up and I was told it was assigned to the wrong person and that he didn't cover my geographic area. WTF!

Better Business Bureau is next.