2 girls in Pakistan shot dead for dancing in the rain.

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well, I'm sorry but it's true.
You guys find it perfectly acceptable and the rest of the West does not.
I've even seen worse posted here, some posters figure its ok to kill someone if they just scare you somewhat
You guys think the death penalty is great and would even vote to let the state decide your life and death ( the same state that most of the posters in the Zimmerman say decides your fate on whims)
Lots of aspects of American culture are looked down on by the West.
I could see in the not too distant future naming the US the Far Right West, then there would be the West, the Middle East etc

There's a lot of Muslims who went apeshit when some soldiers tried to dispose of Korans respectfully and more than talking about the death penalty happened. Shall I judge them as you've just judged me? I am an American after all.

I see a lot of wannabe executioners on the forum. I don't think much of them. That would never lead me to state or imply that shooting these girls is acceptable. The other side of the coin is that the better educated in Pakistan object to it as well. I don't hold people in contempt by national or religious affiliation be they muslim or christian and you know that. What was done was awful and needs to be condemned on its own merits. Sadly that realization seems a scarce thing and I'm not singling you out. Humanity seems hellbent on ignorance.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I am an American after all.

I always have a problem when I just state Americans.
I know by far most Americans aren't like the right wingers here at P&N
Sometimes I wonder if I should type * loner right wing IT guy Americans*
😉

 

[justoh]

Nobody ever asks murders what religion they belong to.
Because it has nothing to do with it

Hillbillies used to be ( still are ) big on family honor
Murdering someone because they insulted your family honor was never considered religous

It's just so...so.....so... boring making pointless distinctions between religious silliness and non religious silliness, especially because of the previously mentioned interaction between culture and religion. Where do you think these religions came from? Their establishment and subsequent development were influenced by prevailing cultural norms. Ancient cultures were paternalistic, so their religions would be too, and the subsequent abrahamic faiths kept with the theme.

From your very own wikipedia article on honor killings in pakistan:

It is noted by sociologists that honor killings do not necessarily have to do with religion, but rather the cultures in different regions.[85] Savitri Goonesekere qualifies this claim, saying that Islamic leaders in Pakistan use religious justifications for sanctioning honor killings.[86]

Furthermore, most honor killings were encompassed by the 1990 Qisas and Diyat Ordinance, which permits the individual and his or her family to retain control over a crime, including the right to determine whether to report the crime, prosecute the offend, or demand diyat (or compensation). Since most honour killings are committed by a close relative, if and when the case reaches a court of law, the victim's family may 'pardon' the murderer, or be pressured to accept diyat (financial compensation). The murderer then goes free.[87] Once such a pardon has been secured, the state has no further writ on the matter although often the killers are relatives of the victim.

Sounds like a case of being frozen in a shitty cultural period by one's religion.

 

[justoh]

oops.

 

[zinfamous]

I have another solution: we don't do anything, and let them live their own way. Eventually, critical mass will be established, and will cause a revolution.
This is something we should have learned from the changes in Egypt.

not possible.

Pakistan has nukes.

 

[zinfamous]

Great. The resident jihadist comes in to spin the news.

Another jihadist who supports radical Islam?

why do you support radical Islam?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Sounds like a case of being frozen in a shitty cultural period by one's religion.

By the time these third worlds get to first world status, some of the first worlders now will be third worlds
Best thing is to get married, have lots of kids, get busy in your community and you will slowly start to notice these worries of yours will slowly disappear

 

[1prophet]

In the west due to secularism separation such as culture and religion is possible,

unfortunately due to naivety, ignorance, or sheer apologism in this case, certain so called liberals somehow project that separation of culture and religion to parts of the world where culture and religion are intertwined like a tightly woven wicker basket.

You cannot separate one from the other without affecting both, since they use religion to prevent questioning of their culture.

A tribal council of clerics, known as a "Jirga" reportedly condemned the women to death for "fornication" and staining their families' names.

One important step to change such culture is separation of religion from state..

Next is rule of law with equality between sexes.

No need to reinvent the wheel or wait for some so called bullshit evolutionary reformation.

It has been done before in one of the largest Muslim countries in the world and can be done again.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

In the years following 1926, Mustafa Kemal introduced a radical departure from previous reformations established by the Ottoman Empire.[81] For the first time in history, Islamic law was separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion.[81]

Mustafa Kemal said
“ We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.[82] ” On 1 March 1926, the Turkish penal code was passed. It was modelled after the Italian Penal Code. On 4 October 1926, Islamic courts were closed. Establishing the civic law needed time, so Mustafa Kemal delayed the inclusion of the principle of laïcité until 5 February 1937.

Ottoman practice discouraged social interaction between men and women in keeping with Islamic practice of sex segregation. Mustafa Kemal began developing social reforms very early, as was evident in his personal journal. He and his staff discussed issues like abolishing the veiling of women and the integration of women into the outside world. The clue on how he was planning to tackle the issue was stated in his journal on November 1915;

“ The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.[83] ” Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization.

According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times.[84] During a meeting he declaimed:

“ To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.

To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West.[85]

 

[Orignal Earl]

unfortunately due to naivety, ignorance, or sheer apologism in this case, certain so called liberals somehow project that separation of culture and religion to parts of the world where culture and religion are intertwined like a tightly woven wicker basket.

You sure read a lot into what I type.
I 100% support your right to complain about Saudi Arabia
If a bunch of Muslims come here and want to kick out your religion, I'll support you
If a bunch of Christians want to kick out Muslims or Jews, I'll support the Muslims and Jews

 

[IGBT]

islam values camels / mules / goats more then women. Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they do. They hate women.

 

[Generator]

I wonder what Muslims think of the story about Helen of Troy. The problem with this part of the world...there doesn't seem to be a single man who will protect/avenge any woman. The culture may not even have the expression damsel in distress.

So alot of you are wondering how do you fix this culture. Give them your old phones. Make them chop off every woman's head who dares look at a phone. This informational technology can be a pandemic that sweeps the Muslim world. Look at the young people in Cairo. They are legitimately savy people who just happen to look like barbarians. But it is unfair to label them so because of recent turmoil.

The internet and the camera phone show Muslims everything they are missing out on. The women are the key to all this. Empower them, make their men kill them by the millions. Break the cycle. Should take 10 more years if the policy is not already in place.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I'm so glad that women aren't persons in this part of Pakistani culture; otherwise I might be upset at this killing.

As it is, it's simply the abortion of the un-wanted. Are you going to pay to take care of every unwanted woman? then STFU. It's a Man's right to choose if he wants to support an unwanted woman.

I'm not heartless; were the women in question taking care of male children then this would be wrong since they would then be supporting the life of persons. So I think there's a lot of nuance to the question of "can a man kill his woman". But one thing all thinking persons can agree on is that calling the termination of the life of a non-person murder is just an illogical appeal to emotions.

amIrite?


Yea, no... I guess that whole line of thinking is just fucking disgusting when you reflect on applying it to other cultures that don't extend personhood to all unique human life with the potential for independent agency and the ability to do good in the world.

 

[Abwx]

islam values camels / mules / goats more then women. Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they do. They hate women.

What a retarded comment.

I originate from a muslim country where 60% of lawyers ,
50% of judges and doctors are women , thanks to hate, of course....

Is there a single western country that has such ratio ?

Btw , in Germany in a trial a woman was killed and her husband
harmed by a german who was trialed for racist agression ,
behind the court eyes , the pregnant woman was stabbed to
death while the present policeman , thinking that the agressor
was the victim just shot the woman husband who was trying
to stop the murderer.

So far for westerners respect of women , that s the same
kind of story , if not worse , that what happened in pakistan,
i can only conclude , according to the supremacists logic ,
that ALL westerners are potential women killers.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

What a retarded comment.

I originate from a muslim country where 60% of lawyers ,
50% of judges and doctors are women , thanks to hate, of course....

Is there a single western country that has such ratio ?

Does your country implement major aspects of Sharia law?

Does your country follow the Koran's allowance of beating one's wife, provided the beating is for her own good and is not about the face?

Should a woman always obey her husband?
Do women have the right to divorce their husbands?
Do males and females have, by default, equal inheritance rights?

Here's a great article on the last three issues:

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...d-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450/

In most countries surveyed, majorities of Muslim women as well as men agree that a wife is always obliged to obey her husband. Indeed, more than nine-in-ten Muslims in Iraq (92%), Morocco (92%), Tunisia (93%), Indonesia (93%), Afghanistan (94%) and Malaysia (96%) express this view.

All this "culture only" diversity and still 1 out of every 5 real Muslims, even in the most liberal of countries, want to bludgeon women to death for having no-no sex.

 

[Abwx]

Does your country implement major aspects of Sharia law?

Does your country follow the Koran's allowance of beating one's wife, provided the beating is for her own good and is not about the face?

Should a woman always obey her husband?
Do women have the right to divorce their husbands?
Do males and females have, by default, equal inheritance rights?

Here's a great article on the last three issues:

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...d-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450/

All this "culture only" diversity and still 1 out of every 5 real Muslims, even in the most liberal of countries, want to bludgeon women to death for having no-no sex.

My native country is nowhere on theses charts....

Seriously you are retarded in your perception
of people while doing generalities that suit
only poor brained people.

Would husbands beat theses kind of women..?..

http://www.desura.com/groups/female-soldier-lovers-group/images/algerian-police-women6

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Would husbands beat theses kind of women..?..

YES! See the quotes below about being "a woman at home" (ie beaten, raped, and taking shit like sub-human cattle)

Seriously you are retarded in your perception
of people while doing generalities that suit
only poor brained people.

Hell of an argument... man your pictures totally invalidate some of the best sociological research on the subject to-date. And I'll give you that only the 'poor brained' are part of this shit-hole world view, but it looks like your guys are more often than not poor-brained.

OH, and don't think I didn't notice that you failed to answer the question:

Does your country implement major aspects of Sharia law?

Does your country follow the Koran's allowance of beating one's wife, provided the beating is for her own good and is not about the face?

Should a woman always obey her husband?
Do women have the right to divorce their husbands?
Do males and females have, by default, equal inheritance rights?

On Algeria:

the illiteracy rate for people over 10 15.6% for men and 29.0% for women.

Despite a decline in total unemployment, youth and women unemployment is high

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/world/africa/26algeria.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

When they marry, it is often to men who are far less educated, creating an awkward social reality for many women.

Khalida Rahman is a lawyer. She is 33 and has been married to a night watchman for five months. Her husband was a friend of her brothers who showed up one day and proposed. She immediately said yes, she recalled.

She describes her life now this way: “Whenever I leave him it is just as if I am a man. But when I get home I become a woman.” ...
Algeria’s young men reject school and try to earn money as traders in the informal sector, selling goods on the street, or they focus their efforts on leaving the country or just hanging out.

Looks like the lazy men are staying home while they send the women out to get educated and work for them. Same shit, different day. I've seen the same crap in machismo culture: and why not? If you can get your cattle to earn for you, isn't that the point of a cow?

bombings aimed at the police, officials and foreigners. A triple suicide bombing on April 11 against the prime minister’s office and the police left more than 30 people dead.
... Some political and social analysts say the recent resurgencein radical Islamist activity, including bombings, is driven partly by a desire to slow the social change the country is experiencing, especially regarding women’s role in society.

Others complain that the growing participation of women in society is a direct violation of the faith.

“I am against this,” said Esmail Ben Ibrahim, an imam at a neighborhood mosque near the center of the city. “It is all wrong from a religious point of view. Society has embarked on the wrong path.”

Looks like some people in your country are still actual Muslims that read the Koran and listen to their Imam.

 

[Doppel]

From dixy's article

Some political and social analysts say the recent resurgence in radical Islamist activity, including bombings, is driven partly by a desire to slow the social change the country is experiencing, especially regarding women’s role in society.

Others complain that the growing participation of women in society is a direct violation of the faith.

What a surprise.

 

[Abwx]

Does your country implement major aspects of Sharia law?

Does your country follow the Koran's allowance of beating one's wife, provided the beating is for her own good and is not about the face?

Should a woman always obey her husband?
Do women have the right to divorce their husbands?
Do males and females have, by default, equal inheritance rights?

On Algeria:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/26/world/africa/26algeria.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

Looks like the lazy men are staying home while they send the women out to get educated and work for them. Same shit, different day. I've seen the same crap in machismo culture: and why not? If you can get your cattle to earn for you, isn't that the point of a cow?

Looks like some people in your country are still actual Muslims that read the Koran and listen to their Imam.

Using a random case and generalizing it....
Besides , since this woman is a lawyer , why doesnt she divorce ,
Algeria is full of women that did decide to divorce , and of lower condition
that this hasardous case.

It s right that there s some inequalities in laws but
mind you this was done recently under the pressure
of the retarded elements who find their inspiration
in Saudi funded orgs but this wont exempt you from
being radical and clulessness since you generalize
tribals behaviours that can be found here and there
as a common denominator for anything muslims elsewhere.

 

[Abwx]

From dixy's article



What a surprise.

I guess that we can consider the kkk , of wich you are perhaps,
as being representative of the us mentality , they only say loud
what everybody, white , think secretely...

 

[ch33zw1z]

That'll teach ya for enjoying ma nature's cleansing process...

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I guess that we can consider the kkk , of wich you are perhaps,
as being representative of the us mentality , they only say loud
what everybody, white , think secretely...

Very few bombings etc. on the part of the KKK.

Women are consistently repressed by the people of the Book. This is a sociological fact, not an opinion and something that can be seen as entirely encapsulated by an individual culture (as one of few things you can see shared Russian Muslims ans Algerian Muslims is that they beat and rape their wives, and they are Muslims)

 

[Doppel]

I guess that we can consider the kkk , of wich you are perhaps,
as being representative of the us mentality , they only say loud
what everybody, white , think secretely...

Oops, do you want to try again? The KKK represent approximately .002% of the US population. Terrorists who use Islam as their motivation are responsible for many magnitudes more murders in the US than KKK.

 

[IGBT]

What a retarded comment.

I originate from a muslim country where 60% of lawyers ,
50% of judges and doctors are women , thanks to hate, of course....

Is there a single western country that has such ratio ?

Btw , in Germany in a trial a woman was killed and her husband
harmed by a german who was trialed for racist agression ,
behind the court eyes , the pregnant woman was stabbed to
death while the present policeman , thinking that the agressor
was the victim just shot the woman husband who was trying
to stop the murderer.

So far for westerners respect of women , that s the same
kind of story , if not worse , that what happened in pakistan,
i can only conclude , according to the supremacists logic ,
that ALL westerners are potential women killers.

..believers in islam are also notorious liars. In islam it's a mans world.

 

[Jaskalas]

Women are consistently repressed by the people of the Book.

Cause all those books were written at a time when it "made sense".

 

[Jaskalas]

Would husbands beat theses kind of women..?..

http://www.desura.com/groups/female-soldier-lovers-group/images/algerian-police-women6

Wow... :wub:

Heh, turn them into intelligent deadly killing machines and they'll have plenty of rights. I like it.