2 Abrams tanks vs. 10,000 Chinese cavalrymen: Who would win?

[Buttzilla]

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Buttzilla

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: Buttzilla

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: CottonRabbit

Originally posted by: SSSnail
The black powder all over the desert... lol, that would make all the cavalries go POOF that much faster as soon as the tank just fart some incendiary in their general direction.

I don't even need to blow up the tanks. Lighting millions of tons of black powder on fire would quickly create a deadly atmosphere of soot, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and sulfur products. I don't think you guys understand the implications of giving 10,000 people magical access to an unlimited amount of explosives.

Do explain how the 10,000 people will survive this deadly atmosphere. Meanwhile, the tanks drive away.

Not to mention, they're protected from biological and chemical attacks...

Seriously, some of you guys need educated yourselves on the capabilities of the M1 Abrams before arguing. In some cases, even the Abrams couldn't destroy another one with its main gun, what makes you think guys on horses will dent them?

Take me back 500 years, give me enough supplies and a few Abrams and I will conquer the world.

like what the US did in Vietnam?

Now you're just being silly, borderline stupid. Vietnam was a totally different scenario, different political atmosphere, actually there is nothing similar between that conflict and this fictional event. It was the hippies that lost the war for the US, not because they couldn't win. The North Vietnam was being carpet bombed into submission and was about to surrender when, all of a sudden, it's stopped.

I'd like to roll up to your castle in my blinged out Abrams and knock on your door, see how quickly you would change your tunes. Before you would comeback with some other idiotic rebuttals, I said conquer, not rule.

Doubts surfaced as to the effectiveness of large-scale, sustained bombing. As Army Chief of Staff Harold K. Johnson noted, "if anything came out of Vietnam, it was that air power couldn't do the job.[162] Even General William Westmoreland admitted that the bombing had been ineffective. As he remarked, "I still doubt that the North Vietnamese would have relented."[162] The inability to bomb Hanoi to the bargaining table also illustrated another U.S. miscalculation. The North's leadership was composed of hardened communists who had been fighting for independence for thirty years. They had successfully defeated the French, and their tenacity as both nationalists and communists was formidable.link

I'm glad you can read, and Google for information. :thumbsup:

Do continue to believe everything you read though, it's been doing well for you. The North was ready to wave the white flag (it would be debatable whether it would be a tactic to stop the bombing while both sides negotiate), but they were ready to do so had the bombing continued for another week. Yes some Vietnamese were very resilience, but so were the Japanese .

Westmoreland was right though, those hardliners will continue to fight, even after the main government surrenders. The US could have won that war on papers, and the South could have taken over, but there will always be resistance. Shit, for almost a thousand years they rebel against the Chinese.

I really wished the US government back then had the same nation building policy they had now with Iraq, that is to leave when the interim government is strong enough to stand on its own. Instead, they just cut off everything at once, and millions South Vietnamese were massacred, by their own countrymen from the the North no less.

I am Vietnamese. Dad fought in the war (broke his arm when his plane was shot down), uncle lost an arm, aunts husband was killed by communist. another aunt, her husband was a pow for a few years. oh, my gf's grandfather killed when he used his body to shield her dad from gunfire...

i know my history pretty well thank you.

 

[SSSnail]

And I bet you think you're the only Vietnamese that has his family torn apart too don't you?

 

[JTsyo]

Might as well throw in my 2 cents in this epic topic.

1. I don't think people realize how many 10K is. If they came at them 100/hr it would take them 100 hours to kill everyone. You think the tank crews could fight for 100 hours effectively?
2. With infinite ammo the Chinese has access to infinite gunpowder. Which means they can make some sort of explosive.
3. The Chinese just need to get a few on the tank and they can take out the more sensitive equipment such as optics.
4. They can clog intakes.
5. The main gun can be disabled by getting something into it that can jam the projectile.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Might as well throw in my 2 cents in this epic topic.

1. I don't think people realize how many 10K is. If they came at them 100/hr it would take them 100 hours to kill everyone. You think the tank crews could fight for 100 hours effectively?
2. With infinite ammo the Chinese has access to infinite gunpowder. Which means they can make some sort of explosive.
3. The Chinese just need to get a few on the tank and they can take out the more sensitive equipment such as optics.
4. They can clog intakes.
5. The main gun can be disabled by getting something into it that can jam the projectile.

A significant number of the tank crews involved in Desert Storm fought rather effectively for more than one hundred hours. Also, I think the first contact between the two sides would lead to at least a thousand cavalrymen's deaths.

 

[Killmenow]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: thecrecarc
For all those who claim the tank will win, what would the tank crew eat? What would they drink? How in the world do you think they could outlast 10k cavalrymen?

Also, the range of the tank is 300 miles. What would they do after that? Unlimited ammo ain't gonna help.

Cavalrymen FTW!

What are the cavalrymen- and horses- going to eat/drink? In the middle of a desert?

Horses? I hear they are rather tasty.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: mooglemania85
if we are assuming that gas and ammo are unlimited, should we also assume the horses are actually magical unicorns? or how about centaurs?

Quite. Making stupid assumptions ruins the outcome.

The situation is also important to the outcome. Did the Chinese know they were going to be attacked? What are they armed with? etc.

I would also like to point out -

With recent advances in propellant technology the average barrel life has decreased to 260 rounds. In some cases, barrels have had to be replaced after only 50 fired projectiles.

Wiki

Therefore having unlimited rounds doesn't help.

Although this would (since no one else has mentioned it) -

The M1 Abrams can make use of the M1028 canister round, which is an antipersonnel munition, packed with over 1,000 tungsten balls.

Similarly the machine guns won't be able to fire unlimited rounds without warping the barrel.

There are pintle mounted 7.62 machine guns not that you would want to use them if the enemy were close... and a co-ax 50 cal.

Range 289 miles
With NBC system: 279 miles

Wiki

You will be wanting the NBC kit...

Edit: Speed

Speed
Road: 42 mph
Off-road: 30 mph

Some horses are not built to run fast an may only do about 30 mph. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over 40 MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach 50 MPH in short bursts.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: DrPizza
uhhh, what weapons do the cavalrymen get to use?

Chinese so probably swords?

The Chinese do have RPGs you know... 10,000 RPGs would really scare a tank commander...

 

[JTsyo]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Might as well throw in my 2 cents in this epic topic.

1. I don't think people realize how many 10K is. If they came at them 100/hr it would take them 100 hours to kill everyone. You think the tank crews could fight for 100 hours effectively?
2. With infinite ammo the Chinese has access to infinite gunpowder. Which means they can make some sort of explosive.
3. The Chinese just need to get a few on the tank and they can take out the more sensitive equipment such as optics.
4. They can clog intakes.
5. The main gun can be disabled by getting something into it that can jam the projectile.

A significant number of the tank crews involved in Desert Storm fought rather effectively for more than one hundred hours. Also, I think the first contact between the two sides would lead to at least a thousand cavalrymen's deaths.

If you're sending 10K cavalry w/o anti-armor weapons against 2 of the best tanks in the world, I don't think causalities would be their first priority.
Also I doubt that was 100hrs of continuous active combat.

 

[tk149]

Gun Barrels melt. Fuel runs out. Unlimited ammo pile inside the tank explodes after the 1000 cavalrymen left pile a huge chunk of wood outside the tanks and set it aflame.

In C&C, you could kill an AI tank with one micromanaged infantryman.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Some horses are not built to run fast an may only do about 30 mph. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over 40 MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach 50 MPH in short bursts.

With a warrior in armor? And the horse itself in armor?

uh-huh. Put down the wiki and snap out if it.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: adlep
The range onf the M1A1's Rheinmetall cannon is at least 5 miles for the unarmored targets.
It also has this ammo available:
"he new M1028 120 mm anti-personnel canister cartridge was brought into service early for use in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It contains 1,098 3/8 (this will hurt) inch tungsten balls which spread from the muzzle to produce a shotgun effect lethal out to 600 m. The tungsten balls can be used to clear enemy dismounts, break up hasty ambush sites in urban areas, clear defiles, stop infantry attacks and counter-attacks and support friendly infantry assaults by providing covering fire. The canister round is also a highly effective breaching round and can level cinder block walls and knock man-sized holes in reinforced concrete walls for infantry raids at distances up to 75 meters."

The rate of fire is at least 5 rounds per minute, so it means that within one minute, the Abrams can hurl 5500 3/8 inch tungsten balls at the charging enemy.
It will also deploy its smoke grenades and it can setup a huge smoke screen within few seconds.
Not to mention the fact that the M1 Abrams can sustain speed that is equal or greater than the speed of a charging horse. It means that the distance between the cavalry and tank will not change.

Therefore, it all will be over within 5~10 minutes.

Edit: Read about Abrams on Wiki

Wiki Link

This should end the thread.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: tk149
Gun Barrels melt. Fuel runs out. Unlimited ammo pile inside the tank explodes after the 1000 cavalrymen left pile a huge chunk of wood outside the tanks and set it aflame.

In C&C, you could kill an AI tank with one micromanaged infantryman.

How would they convince the tank to stay?

This isn't C&C.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I love how the majority seem to hold forth the shining sword of technology as the winner in a walk. In the real world technology tends to fail in direct relation to it's complexity. Not that the scenario has anything to do with the real world but, I wonder that I haven't seen any armor aficionados or former tankers weigh in. Has anyone mentioned what the tanks will be doing with their unlimited casings from the main gun while those pesky Chinese are tunneling? Sure, the tanks can run off but that kind of defeats the purpose of sending them.

 

[zinfamous]

So what if the Chinese play joke and put peepee in the tank gunner's Coke?

(sorry, had to be done)
/racist

 

[Gigantopithecus]

If the cavalry is far enough away & bunched up enough, Abrams tanks can fire low-yield nuclear munitions...

 

[Palvaran]

Great Debate.

The battle could be won with either side. It all comes down to leadership ability or lack thereof.

If I am the tank group, I would wait until nightfall so that my equipment gave me an advantage and attack. This would be even better provided that the cavalrymen had made camp already.

If I am the cavalrymen, I divided my forces into 4 separate groups in different sectors. With my main force, I form a double wide column to attack from a single consolidated direction while leaving the other units hidden behind mountains, hills, and natural terrain if I can not use electronic jamming equipment. When the main battle cannon starts firing at the group, the forces split into a skirmish formation ala a raptor attack and continue to divide and split each time. This makes it hard for the tank to find range and track targets. When they get close, they engulf the tank ala the Seige of Alesia (Vercingetorix). In the event that the tank attempts to put distance and fire from afar, the other groups can ambush the tanks when they get to their grid and it will be like the tanks fighting with their backs to the sea at which point a Cannae formation would suffice.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Palvaran
Great Debate.

The battle could be win with either. It all comes down to leadership ability or lack thereof.

If I am the tank group, I would wait until nightfall so that my equipment gave me an advantage and attack. This would be even better provided that the cavalrymen had made camp already.

If I am the cavalrymen, I divided my forces into 4 seperate groups in different sectors. With my main force, I form a double wide column to attack from a single consolidated direction while leaving the other units hidden behind mountains, hills, natural terrain if I can not use electronic jamming equipment. When the main battle cannon starts firing at the group, the forces split into a skirmish formation ala a raptor attack and continue to divide and split each time so that by the time the tank has a difficult time finding range and tracking targets. When they get close, they engulf the tank ala the Seige of Alesia (Vercingetorix). In the event that the tank attempts to put distance and fire from afar, the other groups can ambush the tanks when they get to their grid and it will be like the tanks fighting with their backs to the sea at which point a Cannae formation would suffice.

Sounds good, except you're in salt flats..

 

[SSSnail]

Why do you even try JLee, most of these idiots don't even know these tanks can move and fire at the same time with deadly accuracy. *GASP*

In the event that the tank attempts to put distance and fire from afar, the other groups can ambush the tanks when they get to their grid and it will be like the tanks fighting with their backs to the sea at which point a Cannae formation would suffice.

Yeah, make sure you let the tanks know where you're ambushing so they can move to that "grid" of yours. Assuming you can get to the tank, what are you gonna do to it? Pee on it of fart at it like I suggested two years ago? That's before you get grounded to be burger meat.

 

[foghorn67]

Main issue of this thread:
Nobody can understand the OP's challenge.
Salt flats.
So you can take out the element of surprise. Or the element of Supplies!!!

 

[Palvaran]

An appendum then.

For Salt Flats, I would try and use the terrain as my 12th man. If I am the cavalry on offense, I set up tank size pit traps in the different grids designed to immobilize the tank or slow the movement of the enemy. Additionally, large sums of gunpowder are placed into the bottom.

When the attacks begins, I continue to use the same raptor style formation and once I get in close, the troops detonate their munitions and ammo in the weak points such as gun turrets or machine guns. If the tank runs, I wait for it to fall into a trap like the spider that waits for its prey and then send troops to detonate the gunpowder burning the enemy from within like a convection oven. If it somehow does manage to evade the traps, which is doubtful if you study the Battle of Alesia, I flank the tank from the opposite direction when it gets within firing range employing a double pincer movement.

All good things come to those that wait.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
I love how the majority seem to hold forth the shining sword of technology as the winner in a walk. In the real world technology tends to fail in direct relation to it's complexity. Not that the scenario has anything to do with the real world but, I wonder that I haven't seen any armor aficionados or former tankers weigh in. Has anyone mentioned what the tanks will be doing with their unlimited casings from the main gun while those pesky Chinese are tunneling? Sure, the tanks can run off but that kind of defeats the purpose of sending them.

If it's on a salt flat desert, that makes sense. Tanks sprint for a couple. Fire salvos.
Rinse. Repeat.
Then the horses get tired. It's not like the westerns where the horses sprint from city to city.
And it wouldn't even take unlimited ammo. A bit more than what they can carry, but not much.
I can only think the MG's would take more ammo. But I think one of them expels the spent cartridges outside anyway.

It wouldn't take too many anti-personal rounds to decimate an open cavalry in any formation.
And if they scattered and tried a bunch of little attacks, the tank would just outmaneuver and use the MG's. You have to remember, even the MG's can outrage whatever the cavalry is using.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: Palvaran
An appendum then.

For Salt Flats, I would try and use the terrain as my 12th man. If I am the cavalry on offense, I set up tank size pit traps in the different grids designed to immobilize the tank or slow the movement of the enemy. Additionally, large sums of gunpowder are placed into the bottom.

When the attacks begins, I continue to use the same raptor style formation and once I get in close, the troops detonate their munitions and ammo in the weak points such as gun turrets or machine guns. If the tank runs, I wait for it to fall into a trap like the spider that waits for its prey and then send troops to detonate the gunpowder burning the enemy from within like a convection oven. If it somehow does manage to evade the traps, which is doubtful if you study the Battle of Alesia, I flank the tank from the opposite direction when it gets within firing range employing a double pincer movement.

All good things come to those that wait.

Gun turret is a weak point? Maybe to another tank, but not to cavalry units. A tank turret ways tons.

 

[SSSnail]

Most of these people don't even understand that when the main gun fires, and if you're anywhere near it, you'll be on your ass with your ears bleeding.

 

[CottonRabbit]

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Main issue of this thread:
Nobody can understand the OP's challenge.
Salt flats.
So you can take out the element of surprise. Or the element of Supplies!!!

Some other people can't understand another key phrase in the OP: unlimited ammo. No tank is surviving the detonation of, for example, 100 teragrams of gunpowder. A quick google tells me that's the about the equivalent of 72 megatons of TNT. The largest nuclear bomb ever detonated had a yield of 50 megatons of TNT. Of course, gunpowder probably won't provide that much explosive force, but that's still plenty of energy released to obliterate 2 tanks. My previous assertion that the tank crew can't survive the ensuing anoxic environment created by the detonation also applies here (last I checked, tanks don't come equipped with oxygen tanks or CO2 scrubbers).

2 cavalry start riding away for a 2 straight days. 2000 cavalry run around to distract the tanks. The rest of the men make the world's biggest bomb.

 

[Palvaran]

Definitely, but go for the weaker elements (i.e twin machine guns) before worrying about the main cannon. Once they are neutralized, the main cannon can only fire in one direction at a time...