1996 Subaru Outback - Excessive oil consumption & transmission question!

[Mojoed]

A few weeks ago I bought a 1996 Subaru Outback Wagon 2.5L with 199k miles for dirt cheap. 20,000 miles ago, the previous owner had the head gasket, cam seals, belts and water pump replaced and provided me the service documentation. There are no visible oil/coolant leaks. I have not noticed the car smoking at all.

My problem is the car uses 1 quart of oil about every 600 miles. I found out the hard way, just over 1800 miles from my last oil change the engine started making a bad tapping noise. The tailpipe is completely black. The engine has never overheated on me and the oil light did not turn on. 3 quarts of oil later the noise completely disappeared and all seems well. This is my first Subaru, so I don't know if this is normal or not for a car of this age and mileage. (I'm used to older Honda's and never had this issue.) Is this something I need to worry about? Other than frequently adding oil, the car seems to run just great.

Second issue; my Automatic Transmission light blinks upon starting, and I'm getting bad Solenoid codes. Bad codes continued after transmission fluid and additive were added. The car shifts fine 99% of the time. Honestly I probably wouldn't have noticed anything had I not run the codes, thus becoming aware of a transmission issue. How much should I expect to pay to have Solenoids replaced, and what are Solenoids anyway?

I don't mind putting some cash into this car since I bought it for so cheap.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[SickBeast]

I would change the transmission fluid first of all.

As for the oil consumption, you could probably just live with it for now until you start seeing blue smoke out the tailpipe. When it gets worse you will have to fix the engine's rings. I'm not sure how many miles those Subaru motors are good for, but it might be worthwhile looking for a motor at a scrap yard and replace yours.

 

[thedarkwolf]

Try changing the PVC first and run thicker oil.

 

[Mojoed]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I would change the transmission fluid first of all.

As for the oil consumption, you could probably just live with it for now until you start seeing blue smoke out the tailpipe. When it gets worse you will have to fix the engine's rings. I'm not sure how many miles those Subaru motors are good for, but it might be worthwhile looking for a motor at a scrap yard and replace yours.

Oops, forgot to mention in my post I had the transmission fluid changed the day I bought it. Also had some additive added to reduce the steering binding up while turning issue. I would consider replacing the motor as you suggested if fixing my current one will be more costly.

How much should I pay to have the rings fixed? (@ $40/hour labor)

Thanks for the help!

 

[Mojoed]

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
Try changing the PVC first and run thicker oil.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the PVC? Did you mean the PCV valve?? Also, my last oil change they used 10w30. The three quarts I put in today were 10w40. Is this thick enough? Thanks!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Mojoed

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I would change the transmission fluid first of all.

As for the oil consumption, you could probably just live with it for now until you start seeing blue smoke out the tailpipe. When it gets worse you will have to fix the engine's rings. I'm not sure how many miles those Subaru motors are good for, but it might be worthwhile looking for a motor at a scrap yard and replace yours.

Oops, forgot to mention in my post I had the transmission fluid changed the day I bought it. Also had some additive added to reduce the steering binding up while turning issue. I would consider replacing the motor as you suggested if fixing my current one will be more costly.

How much should I pay to have the rings fixed? (@ $40/hour labor)

Thanks for the help!

You're welcome.

I think it's about a 2 hour job and the parts should cost about $20.

You might want to replace your tranny as well from the sound of it. Usually it's cheaper to replace a tranny than it is to try to rebuild one. Again, your cheapest bet will be the scrap yard, but it is a crap shoot as you don't know what you're getting.

If the tranny works fine, though, I don't think you should really worry about it.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Mojoed

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I would change the transmission fluid first of all.

As for the oil consumption, you could probably just live with it for now until you start seeing blue smoke out the tailpipe. When it gets worse you will have to fix the engine's rings. I'm not sure how many miles those Subaru motors are good for, but it might be worthwhile looking for a motor at a scrap yard and replace yours.

Oops, forgot to mention in my post I had the transmission fluid changed the day I bought it. Also had some additive added to reduce the steering binding up while turning issue. I would consider replacing the motor as you suggested if fixing my current one will be more costly.

How much should I pay to have the rings fixed? (@ $40/hour labor)

Thanks for the help!

You're welcome.

I think it's about a 2 hour job and the parts should cost about $20.

You might want to replace your tranny as well from the sound of it. Usually it's cheaper to replace a tranny than it is to try to rebuild one. Again, your cheapest bet will be the scrap yard, but it is a crap shoot as you don't know what you're getting.

If the tranny works fine, though, I don't think you should really worry about it.

There is absolutely no way replacing pistons rings is a 2 hour job. On some cars you might be able to get pistons out with the engine still in the car but at the very least you can expect to need a new oil pan gasket and head gasket. I've never seen anyone try and do piston rings without the heads off. I can't imagine how I would have done the rings on my jeep without the heads off. Even if he could leave it in the car he's looking at a few hundred bucks. However, he doesn't have a normal V or straight engine. He's got an H4, meaning there is no way a mechanic can get a piston out of the thing without pulling the whole engine. This also means that he'll need not one but two new head gaskets. The parts will be dirt cheap, but rings will take some major labor time just to be able to get to them. It may honestly be cheaper to just find another running engine that matches and swap it, possibly with the transmission to fix the problems with that at the same time.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Mojoed
How much should I pay to have the rings fixed? (@ $40/hour labor)

I think it's about a 2 hour job and the parts should cost about $20.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...*takes breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wow, that's rich.

Even if labor is only $40/hour (it averages between $70/hour and $100/hour where I live) you're still probably looking at ~15 hours of labor, so at least $600 in labor alone, easily double that if you go to a reputable shop (as I said, in my area $40/hour is incredibly cheap and I wouldn't let a shop with that rate even look at my car, much less touch it). And then there's the "while you're in there" stuff like the water pump, etc where all the labor for the job is already done because of the re-ring so it's stupid not to replace those parts as well.

All-told, a proper re-ring is almost certainly going to be in the neighborhood of $2,500 and quite possibly more.

OP: My guess here is that the previous owner overheated the car and that's why the head gaskets, etc were replaced. He probably took the cheap way out and did not replace the rings (which were very likely damaged during the overheat, causing them to lose tension) or rebuild the head (replace valve guides, seals, etc). This would explain why the engine is superficially clean (no external leaks) but has internal issues that are not readily apparent. It would also explain why you got the car dirt cheap even though it had maintenance records.

It is not always possible to notice a car smoking when it is burning oil, especially if it's only smoking lightly. It's an easy thing for the driver to miss because unless there are billowing clouds of smoke you won't see it in the rear view mirror.

The tapping noise you heard when the oil ran low was probably a collapsed lifter that pumped back up once the oil level was brought back up to spec. I doubt that it caused a permanent issue.

ZV

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
OP: My guess here is that the previous owner overheated the car and that's why the head gaskets, etc were replaced.

Those motors are notorious for having a bad head gasket design from the factory, pretty much every 2.5L motor from 95/96 to 00/01 has the head gaskets replaced once in its lifetime.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
OP: My guess here is that the previous owner overheated the car and that's why the head gaskets, etc were replaced.

Those motors are notorious for having a bad head gasket design from the factory, pretty much every 2.5L motor from 95/96 to 00/01 has the head gaskets replaced once in its lifetime.

Yes, but the combination of the headgasket replacement plus the current excessive oil consumption would seem to indicate a previous non-catastrophic overheat. It takes more than a minor issue to get a car to the point where it uses a quart of oil every 600 miles without an external leak. I didn't lose oil at that rate when my oil cooler line seals blew and the car was slowly dripping a trail of oil wherever I went (I was losing about 1 quart every 1,000 miles when that happened if I extrapolate).

ZV

 

[Mojoed]

^ Great information, thanks!

Looks like I won't be doing those rings.

So is burning oil at a rate of 1qt. per 600 miles highly excessive? Should I expect big problems in the short-term? I guess I'll be keeping my eye out for used engines.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
^ Great information, thanks!

Looks like I won't be doing those rings.

So is burning oil at a rate of 1qt. per 600 miles highly excessive? Should I expect big problems in the short-term? I guess I'll be keeping my eye out for used engines.

The "good" news is that you can keep feeding the car cheap oil on a 3,000 mile change interval (because the weak rings will let combustion blow-by into the crankcase, so you'll have more oil contamination than normal) without really making things "worse". You can even try moving up to a slightly thicker oil and see if that reduces the oil consumption.

The standard across the industry is that up to 1 quart every 1,000 miles is "acceptable". This is somewhat disingenuous because a good engine should be burning significantly less oil than that, but 1 qt/1,000 miles tends to be the "breaking point" where it becomes worth tracking down the issue and fixing it. 1 quart every 600 miles is definitely highly excessive.

As far as the transmission goes, I can't give you a firm estimate, but as a range you're probably looking at $500 to $1,000; as with the re-ring most of the issue is labor involved in dis-assembling the transmission to get at the shift solenoid. The solenoids are the electromechanical parts in an automatic transmission that changes the routing of hydraulic pressure to allow a certain gear to be selected. For example, if the 1-2 shift solenoid is malfunctioning, the car may not shift into second gear until much higher in the RPM band than normal (this happened to me with my old Lincoln, on cold starts the transmission would not shift into second until at least 5,000 RPM regardless of how lightly I was pressing the accelerator). It's something that will get worse over time.

ZV

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
^ Great information, thanks!

Looks like I won't be doing those rings.

So is burning oil at a rate of 1qt. per 600 miles highly excessive? Should I expect big problems in the short-term? I guess I'll be keeping my eye out for used engines.

For a car in this price range with engine and transmission problems the cheapest fix is to track down another vehicle that has a good drivetrain but doesn't work anymore (accident that crushed rear end or something similar) and just swap out the engine and transmission completely. Other than that I would just keep checking and topping off your oil every week and changing it pretty often like zenmervolt said.

 

[cheesehead]

If I'm not mistaken, Subaru takes the golden biscut for lazy engineering: they really only make one engine, in 4- and 6-cylinder variants with or without turbocharging. Odds are that you won't have too much trouble replacing the engine and transmission all in one go for a few hundred dollars.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
If I'm not mistaken, Subaru takes the golden biscut for lazy engineering: they really only make one engine, in 4- and 6-cylinder variants with or without turbocharging. Odds are that you won't have too much trouble replacing the engine and transmission all in one go for a few hundred dollars.

Yes, most of their engines are 2.5L flat fours, along with some 3.0L+ flat sixes. That's where the similarities end. DOHC vs SOHC, forged internals, ECU changes, etc. That said, the 2.5L EJ25 (I believe that's what the 96 had in it) is pretty common.

The Legacy forum on NASIOC has a good amount of info on it:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...ec97b6c5549f5320c&f=13

 

[Mojoed]

Thanks for the link and all the advice guys. :beer:

I checked out some imported used EJ25 engines and some are "long block" and others are "short block". Could someone please explain the difference to me? I think I will replace the engine, but I don't want to make a huge mistake and order the wrong one.

I'm at work (see sig) and can't research this stuff myself, so any additional information/links to good engines for sale, anything, would be appreciated!

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
Thanks for the link and all the advice guys. :beer:

I checked out some imported used EJ25 engines and some are "long block" and others are "short block". Could someone please explain the difference to me? I think I will replace the engine, but I don't want to make a huge mistake and order the wrong one.

I'm at work (see sig) and can't research this stuff myself, so any additional information/links to good engines for sale, anything, would be appreciated!

Long block

You'll want a long block. It comes with heads installed and ready to go.

A short block is missing the heads, meaning that you would need to pay for new/remanufactured them and pay to get them installed.

Before you pay for the new engine call a mechanic and get a quote on swapping the engine out.

Again I really think you should call around to junkyards and check craigslist for a junked outback of a similar year (check a subaru forum to ask which year's engines will swap) because you might be able to get an engine and transmission for the fraction of a new/rebuilt one.

 

[Vette73]

^

But if you buy a used long block it would be very wise, esp for those years as pointed out, to replace the head gaskets and other seals/gaskets while it is out.


OP try and run 15w40 to see if that will slow your burn a little. It might buy you a couple extra hundred miles per quart added. Not a fix but may get you a little longer.

 

[crosshairs]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Mojoed

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I would change the transmission fluid first of all.

As for the oil consumption, you could probably just live with it for now until you start seeing blue smoke out the tailpipe. When it gets worse you will have to fix the engine's rings. I'm not sure how many miles those Subaru motors are good for, but it might be worthwhile looking for a motor at a scrap yard and replace yours.

Oops, forgot to mention in my post I had the transmission fluid changed the day I bought it. Also had some additive added to reduce the steering binding up while turning issue. I would consider replacing the motor as you suggested if fixing my current one will be more costly.

How much should I pay to have the rings fixed? (@ $40/hour labor)

Thanks for the help!

You're welcome.

I think it's about a 2 hour job and the parts should cost about $20.

maybe on a Moped....not on a Subaru...

 

[dust]

I have exactly the same problem with a 328i, '95. I drive about 500-550 km daily and in the middle of the desert and I noticed some time ago during an oil change that I had left less than 2 liters in the engine. I usually change the oil every 10,000km, however the engine was making a funny noise after 8000km so I decided to change the oil and discovered the problem. Since then I have to refill about one liter every day or day and a half(~ 600km) and the tailpipe is black. There's no external leak that I can notice, there was a minor leak at the cover gasket and I had to change it. I was also advised to change the piston rings and that's what I'm going to do most probably.

I used previously the Shell Ultra(15w-50 if I recall correctly), changed to Mobil One for 30,000km and lately to Castrol Magnatec 10w-40. After noticing the oil loss I changed to some cheap 20w-50 that I keep refilling almost every damn day.

At the same time I had to fight against a stupid radiator leak that proved to be from the top seal eventually, but I had the engine overheated twice before I noticed. I changed the seal eventually and haven't had any issue with this so far.

Others here suggested replacing the entire engine, but I can't help thinking it's either hit or miss with this and my engine looks almost new after 200,000km. A friend of mine replaced his 2,0 with a 2,5 of the same year and he's ok with it, but his old engine could barely move the car. So far my car is still quick and the petrol consumption is pretty good as per the E36 ratings(~620km with a full tank of 98). I have to make a decision this month since I have to register the car and most probably it won't pass the emissions test with this problem.

Any thoughts on the matter would be highly appreciated.

Apologies to the OP for hi-jacking the thread.

 

[LTC8K6]

Since then I have to refill about one liter every day or day and a half(~ 600km) and the tailpipe is black.

:Q

 

[kami333]

You might consider skipping the EJ25 and just swap in a EJ22, that's what a lot of people over on USMB do. Much more reliable and a lot cheaper.

 

[Mojoed]

Originally posted by: kami333
You might consider skipping the EJ25 and just swap in a EJ22, that's what a lot of people over on USMB do. Much more reliable and a lot cheaper.

Good info! I'll check out that link when I get home from work. Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[Mojoed]

One more question! If I opt for the EJ22 engine instead of the EJ25, will there be any complications/incompatibilities with my current transmission? Or does it drop right in no problem with what I've got? Thanks.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
One more question! If I opt for the EJ22 engine instead of the EJ25, will there be any complications/incompatibilities with my current transmission? Or does it drop right in no problem with what I've got? Thanks.

I think it would be fine, I believe the automatic tranny's are the same, but that's a question for NASIOC, IMO. See my link above