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$1800-$2200 Business Computer

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I'm glad you found my comments useful although I apologise for my inarticulateness as I was in a rush before. I'll explain a little more carefully now;

CPU aka the benefits of going AMD
- they're faster and snappier
- the whole build is cheaper and very significantly so if you end up using an Intel platform using DDR2 RAM
- they run cooler due to a more efficient architecture, manufacturing process and the downclocking technology 'cool and quiet'.
- they leave you the flexibility of overclocking if you choose to at a later date.

What CPU to go for?
Personally for a business computer I'd recommend the AMD64 3000+ for the simply reason that the 3200+ is 30% more expensive and only offers an approximate 10% speed bonus. Given what you've said this 10% extra speed doesn't seem to be critical at all. Anyway, if you wanted to you could easily overclock the 3000+ processor far beyond 3200+ speeds. Moreover, if you're focused on reducing heat and making as quiet a setup as possible (while retaining as economical potential for overclockign as possible) I'd recommend going for the 90nm Winchester chips as they run cooler than their 130nm brethren. See here.. However, ultimately the heat difference will probably be minimal and has to be weighed against the cost difference of being able to go a cheaper route eg S754.

Going into overclocking more and why its viable and should not be much concern:
First and foremost because of the its architecture an AMD64 produces alot less heat than an equivocal Intel solution when running at 100% load. Moreover, for most of the time in an office environment when you don't need the power it'll be using 'cool and quiet' meaning it might be downclocked to as little as 600mhz so any overclock here regardless would not be causing any constant extra heat. Of course, then when you needed the power the AMD64 would then speed up the full speed or whatever overclock you've set it to.

More specifically on the overclocking procedure:
When it comes to heat production it can be effectively simplified into two factors: what mhz the processor is running at and at what voltage it is running at also.

In that scenario obiously a AMD64 3000+ which runs natively at 1.8ghz and 1.4V if overclocked to 2.4ghz needing 1.55V would obviously produce more heat than a 3200+ (2ghz @1.4V) because it runs faster and has more voltage. At the same time it would produce more heat than a 3800+ (2.4ghz @1.4V) because of the increase voltage. However, because you might not necessarily need to increase the voltage to the cpu for a more moderate overclock you could end up running a 3000+ at say 2.2ghz @1.4v stock voltage. Therefore, intrinsically, the processor heatwise would act the same as both the speed and voltage would be the same. The only difference would be in that the overclocked 3000+ would be running using a faster hypertransport meaning the motherboard would need to be able to reliably run it at that speed - some motherboards are better than others but at a relataively moderate overclock like that many should be capable - more research on specific motherboards would be necessary of course.


Choosing a motherboard:
Well, this is a more complex area where I don't know the specifics of each motherboard so you'll need to research and get second opinions than me. However, go for a quality manufacturer eg MSI, Gigabyte, Asus, Abit, DFI etc and if you want to save money the nforce3 platform could offer you some cost savings and allow you to use AGP cards which could make things a little big cheaper/more flexible for you depending how you end up deciding on the graphics card. Of the nforce3 platforms the MSI Neo2 Platinum is considered most highly regarding overclocking.

On the SATA side of things, this is for someone else to clarify but I was under the impression than both nforce3 and nforce4 offered only a maximum of 4 SATA ports and more specifically only 2 of them were locked (needed) if you were locking to overclock. That would mean you might want to look into investing in a RAID card, but of course that would add to the cost and you'd only need to start considering that if you were using more than 2 hardrives.


Choosing a hardrive:
Yeah, as before and as you've looked at WD a five year warranty should be a priority. My personal preference would be towards Seagate myself. Capacity-wise 2x 80GB sounds like it would be sufficient, but with the small differentiation between 80GB and 120GB and 160GB drives it's probably worth going larger.

2 hardrives in a nice RAID setup would provide many benefits as stated before - performance (a yet snappier system) and reliability (data might be salvageable if one hardrive crashed). On a slightly different note, having a RAID setup will differentiate your build providing a more unique service than typically seen with DELL business machines. Nevertheless, still encourage them to back up ALL data every day and especially any critical data all the time - you may want to figure purchasing a USB removavle device into the build. You can go buy a USB pen type device or else get a compact flash card and a card reader which might provide better value althought perhaps not have the same convience or immediate friendliness of use ie having the bring two things together etc.


Video Card:
Fundamentally, all you'd want is a card capable of good solid DVI output if you're using an LCD monitor or else looking to use one in the future. As such a cheap card like an ATI X300 would provide a perfect solution if you went with a nforce4 motherboard which uses a PCI-E graphics slot. If you went with nforce3 because you'd have AGP you'd have more alternatives and would be able to put in a better graphics card (primarily the ATI 9600 PRO as providing excellent bang/buck - the XT isn't worth the additional cost while avoid the non-Pro versions including the 256MB ones) that would be capable of playing current games (albeit not at resolution and detail) compared to the X300 that would be wholly inadequate. The 6600GT I only mentioned earlier as an option if you were seriously considering gaming as that'd play all current games well. 🙂


On RAM:
Again as before a quality manufacturer and a lifetime warranty is what you should look for. After that a preference for lower latency RAM would wise to make. Of course, like the CPU, RAM can be overclocked as well in the sense of both increasing the speed it runs at and/or lowering its timings. RAM is typically capable of much tighter timings than specified especially with a bit of voltage added. For example the 512MB sticks of DDR3200 Crucial Value RAM are rated among the very slowest and worst overclocking RAM yet with a bit of voltage 2.6V --> 2.8V I managed to tighten the timings from 3-3-3 to 2.5-2-2 which can even run up until about 218mhz. I'd recommend tightening the timings and raising the voltage if needed upto 2.8V - indeed 2.8V should mean the RAM should still be within warranty specs. Nevertheless, check for whatever RAM you're using. Moreover, for an AMD64 platform you don't need to worry about increasing the speed of the RAM as the AMD64 is not bandwidth starved by any means. If you're overclocking you can run a divider. RAM-wise 512MB is both desirable and probably sufficient unless you're using very RAM hungry programs or heavily multitasking.


Choosing a case:
This is a matter of personal preference really but choosing on cost, cooling and simple looks should be the main criteria. I'd say really try and aim for a case with 120mm fans because they can provide better cooling at a lower noise - a 120mm fan at the front blowing over the hardrives could provide a more optimum temperature for the harddrives so that the risk of failure from too high heat is reduced. Additionally, I'd say don't bother with an aluminium case - aluminium increases the cost massively to only make a lighter case (and noisier) which presumably is not a key requirement unless the computer is going to be transported far and frequently. Therefore to provide you with a few choices of what I'd look into myself:

Antec 3000B - for it's truely excellent cooling, low noise and good value (no PSU is included in the cost however)
Antec 3700BQE - for it's excellent value (a good PSU is included), very good cooling with low noise
Antect Sonata - again for it's very low noise and good cooling (albeit not quite as good as the other two where the 3000B particularly excels). It also comes with a good PSU also.

Outside of those Lian-Li, Coolermaster and Silverstone would be worth looking at in my opinion. Lian Li and Silverstone look particularly professional in my opinion. Although, my preference would be towards Silverstone for typically providing more affordable cases (as they're most made of steel say with a front aluminium bezel) with better cooling (ie 120mm fans) and looking very elegant and professional. Of course, there'd also be Silver version of that the TJ02 which would mean you don't have to risk noticeable scratches on the black paintwork of the TJ04.

Of those cases I'd reckon the Sonata, 3000B and the Silverstone cases would be the top ones to choose from.


Further notes - with the cases check how many fans come with it and if an additional perchase might be needed.

I think that's mostly it and it should allow you to build a business computer with excellent bang/$ for a hell of alot cheaper than $1800. I hope that is of more help.
 
Originally posted by: Diasper

Video Card:
Fundamentally, all you'd want is a card capable of good solid DVI output if you're using an LCD monitor or else looking to use one in the future. As such a cheap card like an ATI X300 would provide a perfect solution if you went with a nforce4 motherboard which uses a PCI-E graphics slot. If you went with nforce3 because you'd have AGP you'd have more alternatives and would be able to put in a better graphics card (primarily the ATI 9600 PRO as providing excellent bang/buck - the XT isn't worth the additional cost while avoid the non-Pro versions including the 256MB ones) that would be capable of playing current games (albeit not at resolution and detail) compared to the X300 that would be wholly inadequate. The 6600GT I only mentioned earlier as an option if you were seriously considering gaming as that'd play all current games well. 🙂

the x300 and the 9600pro are more or less the same card and will give very similar performace.

Originally posted by: Mr Bob
What would be nice is a MB with support for 6 SATA slots.. I thought the ASUS one I was looking at had 6, but after looking over the details, it only has four. I will have already used up all four slots if I run raid1. Can anyone give some advice on a MB with 6+ sata slots?

Originally posted by: shoRunner
i'd also go with the msi neo4 plat, since you will never use sli and you still will have all the raid options.
 
I think you my be wrong shoRunner. The ATI X600Pro is the exact re-working of the 9600Pro to be used on a PCI-E slot - they share exactly the same specs. The ATI X600XT is a slightly boosted 9600XT as it has an extra 150mhz bandwidth in the memory (750mhz vs 600mhz). Meanwhile the X300 is really meant to replace the 9200 with DirectX 9 support and performance wise equals a 9600 approximately. However, the 9600 Pro is singnificantly faster than a plain 9600.

Refer here

Accordingly, when a X300 sells for $66 on newegg and a 9600Pro for $77 compared to the PCI-E equivalent the X600Pro for $90+; it's pretty clear which is the far better deal. IMO a 9600Pro equivalent would be the absolute mininmum for any sort of gaming machine. A 9600/X300 is significant lower and beyond what I'd call acceptably playable. At the price of $77 the 9600Pro is a steal.

Of course, for any semi-serious person playing current games then a X700-X700PRO / 9800 PRO / 6600GT (not the straight 6600) would be in order as well as having 1GB of RAM
 
well if you look at benchmarks.

x300

9600

you'll see that in the x300 actually scores better. the test setup is slightly different (amd vs 3.2p4) so that could account for most if not all of the difference. if you look at the other benchmarks you'll see similar results.
 
shoRunner -
"i'd also go with the msi neo4 plat, since you will never use sli and you still will have all the raid options."
- Can you link me to one with 6 SATA slots?
 
That's all I found too.. "SATA 4 x SATA2 300"

That's why I said "What would be nice is a MB with support for 6 SATA slots.. I thought the ASUS one I was looking at had 6, but after looking over the details, it only has four. I will have already used up all four slots if I run raid1. Can anyone give some advice on a MB with 6+ sata slots?"

The one you linked to has 4...
 
Ah another person who has taken quite a bit of time to help out 🙂

My PMs went from like <1 sent long to multiple paragraphs, which is very helpful to a newb like me who is trying to understand how everything works, and what/why to buy something.

"CPU aka the benefits of going AMD "
- Already agreed and know the benefits of AMD over Intel on this computer.

"Personally for a business computer I'd recommend the AMD64 3000+ for the simply reason that the 3200+ is 30% more expensive and only offers an approximate 10% speed bonus. Given what you've said this 10% extra speed doesn't seem to be critical at all."
- After discussing processors with various people through PMs, most have said go with the 2800, 3000, or 3200. Anything above the 3200 is pretty much not worth the money considering the speed increase per $ spent. I think it would be wise to spend a bit extra now to grab the 3200, compared to the 3000 that is still screamin fast.

"Going into overclocking more and why its viable and should not be much concern:
First and foremost because of the its architecture an AMD64 produces alot less heat than an equivocal Intel solution when running at 100% load. Moreover, for most of the time in an office environment when you don't need the power it'll be using 'cool and quiet' meaning it might be downclocked to as little as 600mhz so any overclock here regardless would not be causing any constant extra heat. Of course, then when you needed the power the AMD64 would then speed up the full speed or whatever overclock you've set it to."
- This is where I have taken a stand, based on wrong info. I believe(d) OC shortens lifespan. But someone else explained that all it does is increase the heat of the CPU, that can cause a shorter lifespan. However, that means OC was the main reason behind this... Unless that means OC is fine as long as I am able to maintain good operating temps. I don't really understand what point you are trying to get across...? I understand that when idle, the CPU will cool down, but when running at the OC speed for long periods of time, it sounds like the heat might become a problem. Either way, can anyone prove that OC does not cause excess heat, and that excess heat does not cause shorter lifespan? See where I am getting at here? I might not be explaining myself well enough, due to lack of knowledge on OC :/

"Yeah, as before and as you've looked at WD a five year warranty should be a priority. My personal preference would be towards Seagate myself. Capacity-wise 2x 80GB sounds like it would be sufficient, but with the small differentiation between 80GB and 120GB and 160GB drives it's probably worth going larger. "
- I love the Barracudas, very stable drives. I also love the two WD I have now, and have had in the past. I think either company would be great. However Seagate doesn't have any drives w/ a secure connection. I noticed in the past on two boards, the cable did not quite fit well. The SecureConnect w/ WD really helped. I guess it is just past experience... Ya know? I mean I could say WD sucks, yet you argue they are the best. Then I say "I have had 5 drives over 6 years from WD die." To me it sounds like a real crappy brand, but that is only luck of the draw. Seems like most of computer building is your personal preference mixed with a bit of benchmarks.

"The 6600GT I only mentioned earlier as an option if you were seriously considering gaming as that'd play all current games well."
- Ahhhh. I am thinking that with such a fast machine, I will have to load up some games to play around. I might just want to buy a 6600GT for the hell of it. Even if it is a slight waste of money... I know if I need a higher card later on down the road, I will be killin myself because I didn't prepare for that and buy a 6600GT.. Maybe I should get a $75 now and then if any games I end up playing require a higher performance card, I will buy one then..?

-----
As far as the RAM goes, I was looking at 2GB of Corsair, or GeIL. Both had timings of CAS 3. I was told it isn't quite worth the money to grab something @ CAS 2 when CAS 3 should be fine. What is your opinion on 4x512 vs 2x1024?

----
I want a silver case, and think Aluminum would be the best choice. I spent the last 30 minutes going over the case brands you listed, and couldn't really find much that I liked. I think the LianLi is perfect, but the price is expensive. Anything lower would be great, but it have to be appealing to me as well. Hard to buy a case for someone else, eh?

"I think that's mostly it and it should allow you to build a business computer with excellent bang/$ for a hell of alot cheaper than $1800. I hope that is of more help."
- Very helpful, but I still think it would be wise to take advantage of the budget, and grab something a little more high performance than 512MB ram and a 3000 CPU. This isn't really a budget system, as much of a performance one.
 
Originally posted by: shoRunner
well if you look at benchmarks.

x300

9600

you'll see that in the x300 actually scores better. the test setup is slightly different (amd vs 3.2p4) so that could account for most if not all of the difference. if you look at the other benchmarks you'll see similar results.

You should be publically flogged and your body fed to a pack of hungry wolves for linking and quoting tomshardware like that as any sort of comparative or reliable information. Those results are not comparable at all as practically everything is different - different hardware, drivers... heck the demo test seems like it might not even be the same one! tomshardware even says itself that they aren't comparable and any differences will be heavily attributable to the differences in the setups - entirely different!

Don't be lazy and find the easiest and lowest common denominator (tomshardware) which is known not to be the most reliable - please try techreport and xbitlabs first or even anandtech. Geez.

For all intensive purposes:
x600 pro = 9600 pro
x300 = 9600
x300SE pretty much equals a 9600SE depending on RAM.

Now even on tomshware the X600pro scores about 22% higher than the x300 while costwise the X600Pro equivalent costs about 16% (newegg).

Anyway, this is hardly worth splitting hairs over given the paltry sum of money ($11!!) - my time arguing this is worth much more than the difference between the products and that's even if I was buying for myself! Please just don't argue from ignorance or poorly understood and used information - that grates when someone believes they know better.

And having done a little more reading just to corroborate my understanding all nforce 4 boards will be limited to only 4 SATA sockets as I stated earlier. 2 are locked and can be used properly when overclocking. Anyway, can I ask why you'd need 6 SATA connections? You'd only need that if you had as many drives and wanted a complex RAID configuration and if you were doing that most people would be considering a proper RAID card for that. In short, I really doubt motherboards would ever supply that when 4 harddrives is often the limit in many cases. However, I do profess my rather large ignorance of RAID setups given I'm not using one myself but given the huge bandwidth of SATA compared to the actual data peak transfer (150MB/sec vs <70MB/sec) the hardrives are capable of, might it be possible to use the same connector and use a splitter etc?? As I said don't take my word for it. Are there any RAID experts here?
 
"Anyway, can I ask why you'd need 6 SATA connections? "
- I am running a Raptor and a 250GB WD. Both are going ot be in Raid1, which means I cannot add anymore sata drives. 2 x 2 = 4. Thus 4 hard drives are used in my config. :/
 
There are relatively few boards which support 6 X SATA drives for the normal desktop user as most just won't use that many. I do believe that DFI's SLI board supports 8 SATA ports and MSI's Ultra and SLI chipset boards support 6 SATA ports too. I checked since I have both. 🙂
 
Could always get a RAID card if/when you eventually need the extra hardrives?

Say how much space do you need and are you sure you're not going completely overkill with RAIDing Raptors. 4 hardrives including two Raptors will equal one loud computer (and hinder cooling meaning fans might potentially have to spin faster and thus louder themselves) - noise is something that can be far more distracting and unpleasant for the working environment than the few extra splitseconds needed to access the harddrive - in short the noise might have a negative affect on productivity! I originally thought you were just going to stick with two WDs in RAID and I was thinking that was overkill. Just get them to back their data up every so often - it's cheaper and the only true way to make data secure.


edit - if you really wanted to make data secure with hardrives (given only one failing at a time) use RAID5
 
Originally posted by: Mr Bob
" Workstation running an Opteron? Is that a possibility? "
- What do u mean?



You are the first to have mentioned it. It seems like that would bring me over my $2k total tho... I will need dual cpu, and MB that supports it. Plus, I would rather have quality parts than cutting edge ones. Know what I mean? I need stability on the machine..

Don't Opterons = stability? And you can get a single socket 940 mobo. I really think that for your situation this is the way to go. Opterons aren't that expensive.
 
Opteron = registered RAM and more expensive motherboards as well as the chips themselves. For a simple business pc it's seems to me to be really unneeded and uneconomical. Opterons are really for servers - this isn't going to be a server.

Maybe I'm just being a party-pooper but if it was for my business I'd choose the most economical solution.
 
I asked my friend about running those, he basically said it isn't worth the money. I would much rather have a system that is easy to piece together.

" Could always get a RAID card if/when you eventually need the extra hardrives? "
- What would this cost to provide two extra SATA slots that allow RAID1? Also, I would think it would be better to just buy a MB that supports this, rather than buying a special card down the road. What are your thoughts on that? I Searched for MSI and Ultra at newegg, couldn't find a single board with the words MSI and Ultra in the title, that had more than 4 sata slots...
 
Originally posted by: IanthePez
Originally posted by: Mr Bob
If something is going to crap out on me 3 years from now, it would make my purchase worthless.

In 3 years, at least something will probably die....

Then you want a computer that runs VERY cool to prolong the life of parts that die easy, such as hard drives.


I recommend that you get really good quality parts. No cheapo powersupplies or motherboards.
 
Right, I have picked out some pretty good hardware. I don't expect anyone new to this thread to read each of the 8 pages of posts, but thanks for the input 🙂

Anyone care to elaborate about running 4x512 vs 2x1024 ram? I'll be using the AMD 3200+ CPU.
 
Originally posted by: Mr Bob
Anyone care to elaborate about running 4x512 vs 2x1024 ram? I'll be using the AMD 3200+ CPU.
Well, it would stand to reason that running 4X512 will fill up all your RAM slots on your mobo, leaving no room for expanding your RAM in the future (assuming your mobo will have 4 slots). Running 2X1024 will leave two slots still available. And a kit of two 1GB modules should be a little cheaper than two pairs of 512 kits, unless you just happen to find a smokin' sale on 512 pair kits or something. 😉

Regarding filling up all your RAM slots with four 512 modules, however, it's unlikely you're ever going to need more than 2 GB of RAM in ANY business computer anytime in the near future, so that's not likely to become an issue. Even with heavy Photoshop usage and a bunch of other RAM-hungry apps running concurrently, you're not likely to even exceed 1.5GB very often. However, I suppose it's possible that if/when 64-bit business applications ever get developed and become mainstream (and that's a VERY BIG "if" IMHO), and some app comes out that actually has a need for more than 2 GB of RAM, you might look back and be glad that back in 2005 you decided to go with two 1 GB modules and thus still have those two extra slots free to add even more RAM. Is this likely? No, but all else being equal, why not give yourself the future option?

Performance-wise, I see no benefit or detriment in going with 4x512 or 2x1024 with a business computer. Shouldn't make much difference either way. And running your RAM dual-channel isn't going to make any noticeable difference since you're not going to be using onboard video (you're getting a card, of course), so that's not part of the picture either.

One other consideration, I suppose, would be that with 2x1024 modules, you'd have two less modules to potentially fail. Four modules (512) means four potential chances for failure compared to two (1024), for whatever that's worth. But if you're going with quality stuff from Corsair or Geil, as you mentioned, RAM is not gonna be high on the list of likely component failures. These companies wouldn't be offering lifetime warranties, or have the reputations they have, if their modules were failing on any kind of regular basis (overclocking abusers notwithstanding).

BTW, there was a comment by someone else earlier in the thread about Raptors being more likely to fail sooner than Seagates. This is patently false. I love Seagate HDs (bought one myself for my new build), but Raptors are enterprise-class hard drives with not only a 5-year warranty that equals Seagate's, but also an MTBF rating that equates to about 137 years of 24/7 operation. 😛 If you buy one now, and run it 24/7 for the rest of your life, it should not only last your lifetime, but your son or daughter's entire lifetime as well, and prolly well into their son or daughter's life. That should, uh, be adequate. 😉 (And long before it eventually dies, we will all have gone to another data storage medium anyway.)

Hope this info is useful. Have fun with your build. 🙂
 
Thanks for checking back up on the thread Ken 😉

I think I will just go with the two 1GB sticks, I thought 2 x 512MB would be less, but it turns out 1GB is a little less than 2x512MB 🙂

I'll take your advice on the RAM and go with Corsair value select ram at 2 x 1024: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145505

I will make a new thread about the MB, this one has gotten pretty long, and I pretty much have all the parts I need.
 
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