*

[Pete]

Sorry if this was covered earlier in the thread, but I didn't feel like reading all of it.

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
Could the chip in the xbox 360 contain physics code? If so and the performance numbers are corrent then there is no way nvidia can get to the drawing board to allow for physics to be implemented in the PS3 before launch. I know the multi core cpu of the PS3 can possibly help with physics however I dont believe its inherently designed with physics enhancements initially. Meaning it would have to compute it the same way a regular cpu would.

nV doesn't need to worry about physics processing with RSX, as Cell is a beast in this regard (at least, as much so as Xenos). Yeah, Cell has only 7 SPEs, but remember that Cell runs at 3.2GHz and both RSX and Xenos run at ~500MHz. Let's simplify majorly (naively and probably incorrectly) and assume you use all 7 SPEs and all 48 of Xenos' ALUs for physics and can do one physics op per SPE/ALU per clock. That's 7*3.2=22.4Gops/s vs. 48*.5=24Gops. Pretty close. Though both have other things to do, I expect the console CPUs will have more cycles to spare for physics than GPUs.

AFAIK, Cell is as inherently ideal (not nec'ily designed) for physics as Xenos is, in that it has a lot of per-clock FP power at its disposal. There's nothing in a regular CPU particularly ill-suited to physics except for its lack of instructions per clock. CPUs tend to process few dissimilar instructions per clock intelligently (conditionals, etc.), while GPUs (and probably PPUs) tend to process lots of similar instructions per clock rather unintelligently. Cell is closer to a GPU in that it has all those FP-happy SPEs.

 

[route66]

Having PPU doesnt take anything away from a GPU in performance. Read anandtech's article on how without physics the cards of today are brought to a crawl then try explaining to everyone how it hurts a GPU?

Yes, but the XBOX360 doesn't have a PPU so what is your point?

You're not even staying OT to your OP.

And please stop the circular logic of saying that the GPU of the XBOX360 can be used for the PPU - it doesn't work that way. It's not a dedicated PPU and takes processing power away form the GPU. That is what you are not getting.

Let me sum it up for you: There is no PPU on the XBOX360. Maybe the GPU can be used for physics instructions on the XBOX360, but doing so reduces computational power from the GPU because there is no dedicated PPU on the XBOX360. Do you get it now?

 

[Sentry2]

lol

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
If we take out the manufacturer support and leave really the companies that produce movies we see that Blue Ray is not really winning. Movie companies will decide who wins not technology manufacturers. You think Paramount wants to give sony money for its movies because sony is the founder of blue ray? Why does paramount want to finance sony movie studios?

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox


Why did Microsoft and Intel side with HD DVD?
The companies cited several reasons for their decision. They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being. They also said HD DVD guarantees a feature they want, "managed copy," which lets a computer user copy a movie to a computer hard drive so it can be beamed around the house. The iHD software offers "greater interactivity," for example, letting a small screen with a movie director be overlaid onto the main video screen. HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player.

HD-DVD allows for great profitability. You know what that means to MPAA? KaChing! Advantage HD-DVD.

Neither Intel or Microsoft make Drives or are film studios. But here is something from HP & Dell on the matter: http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?date=2005-09-29

Sep 29, 2005 - Dell and Hewlett Packard Set the Record Straight on Blu-ray

Dell and Hewlett Packard, the worlds two largest PC manufacturers, today reiterated their support for Blu-ray and addressed the inaccurate information cited by Microsoft and Intel regarding the Blu-ray Disc format. "Every computer manufacturer in the BDA carefully reviewed both formats and ultimately chose Blu-ray as the superior solution for meeting customer demands and providing the best possible end-user experience," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business. "It is surprising that Tuesday's announcement is not aligned with that of the vast majority of the computer industry and is contrary to our consumer research." Virtually every computer company that has expressed a preference for a high definition disc format has chosen Blu-ray Disc as the superior format for computer platforms and applications, including top-tier computer brands such as Dell, Hewlett Packard, Panasonic, Sony and LG.


Information on the HD Format War (Includes support companies): http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/

A short selection of Blu-Ray Disc Association members:

Oct 2, 2005 - Paramount Home Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 17, 2005 - Lions Gate Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 15, 2005 - Universal Music Group Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jul 29, 2005 - Twentieth Century Fox to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Mar 10, 2005 - Apple Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 18, 2005 - Sonopress Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 6, 2005 - EA and Vivendi Universal Games Join the Blu-ray Disc Association


Lets also not forget, in japan you can already BUY Blu-Ray Drives for plugging into your nice new HD TV. Have HD-DVD reached that point yet?

Toshiba was going to roll out HD but decided to wait a second for the 2 HUGE newcomers on the market. Blu-ray should be the feared release of any release ever released. This thing is so un ethical and goes against every fair use policy I could ever think of. Flashing your deck for newer encryption methods on the fly, causing movie backups not to work after wathcing a new movie sounds great. Frying your firmware because the disc thinks you cracked it. If anyone everyone had some common sense and or heard of the almost Hitler or stalin like controll that the MPAA will have over your deck once you buy this no body should ever want this.

The fact is one by one most are going to fall out once they figure out that multiple layers while great and all are almost impossible to read and that the discs themselves are almost impossible to make.

/rant over

 

[meelk]

the Revolution has a dedicated 32meg PPU. If you are worried about physics, Nintendo wins outright.

 

[BenSkywalker]

HDTV Man-

You might want to take a passing glance at HDTV related news once in a while-

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

Paramount has earlier stated that it will support both HD DVD and Blu-ray and wait and see what next generation optical format will come out as the winner. However it has now changed its mind will instead back up primarily Blu-ray.

Paramount.

One of the absolutely most important parts of the coming DVD-war are Hollywood's great movie studios. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray have been backed up by several studios and many of them have decided to support only one format. This was the case with both Paramount and Warner Bros. which earlier was faithful to HD DVD. Now it seems that both Paramount and Warner Bros. has switched partners to Blu-ray. There has now appeared information that points to that also Warner will make movies for the Blu-ray format, a big step back for HD DVD which now only has Universal left as a faithful HD DVD follower.

Warner Bros That includes HBO and New Line.

"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-ray in PlayStation 3," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures, Worldwide Home Entertainment.

Just to give you multiple sources.

That leaves Universal backing HD-DVD exclusively- everyone else has shifted to Blu-Ray. The next gen format wars are over, HD-DVD was obliterated before a single player launched and you can thank MS for handing Sony the victory. HD-DVD will go down as one of the larger losers in any format war ever- they were obliterated before they made it to market.

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox
Paramount
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video
Sony Studios

/format war

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
HDTV Man-

You might want to take a passing glance at HDTV related news once in a while-

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

Paramount has earlier stated that it will support both HD DVD and Blu-ray and wait and see what next generation optical format will come out as the winner. However it has now changed its mind will instead back up primarily Blu-ray.

Paramount.

One of the absolutely most important parts of the coming DVD-war are Hollywood's great movie studios. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray have been backed up by several studios and many of them have decided to support only one format. This was the case with both Paramount and Warner Bros. which earlier was faithful to HD DVD. Now it seems that both Paramount and Warner Bros. has switched partners to Blu-ray. There has now appeared information that points to that also Warner will make movies for the Blu-ray format, a big step back for HD DVD which now only has Universal left as a faithful HD DVD follower.

Warner Bros That includes HBO and New Line.

"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-ray in PlayStation 3," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures, Worldwide Home Entertainment.

Just to give you multiple sources.

That leaves Universal backing HD-DVD exclusively- everyone else has shifted to Blu-Ray. The next gen format wars are over, HD-DVD was obliterated before a single player launched and you can thank MS for handing Sony the victory. HD-DVD will go down as one of the larger losers in any format war ever- they were obliterated before they made it to market.

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox
Paramount
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video
Sony Studios

/format war

If the Crap you spewed is right, then we have already lost. I say we becuase I can't understand why someone would want to go through this.

A.) Pay for Royalties to Sony for ever pressed and Blank Blu-Ray disc
B.) Wait a decade for capacities that seem great but are almost impossible to make (which garantees a type of Blu-Ray2.)
C.) Once a backup solution is found (which we are allowed) have a future DVD make those same backups not work in the exact player you tested them on before.
D.) Put the $200-$300 purchace of a player in the hands of a $20 DVD in the hopes it won't fry your firmware because it thinks that your player or the disc itself has been hacked.

I really don't understand ow any one on AT would stand for that kind of trash. Me I am going to get a Hd-DVD box. I will also get a HD-DVD burner when they are available. I will then "back up" any blu-Raydisc I have (if it does win) and burn them on to HD-DVD discs for playback in my house.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66

Having PPU doesnt take anything away from a GPU in performance. Read anandtech's article on how without physics the cards of today are brought to a crawl then try explaining to everyone how it hurts a GPU?

Yes, but the XBOX360 doesn't have a PPU so what is your point?

You're not even staying OT to your OP.

And please stop the circular logic of saying that the GPU of the XBOX360 can be used for the PPU - it doesn't work that way. It's not a dedicated PPU and takes processing power away form the GPU. That is what you are not getting.

Let me sum it up for you: There is no PPU on the XBOX360. Maybe the GPU can be used for physics instructions on the XBOX360, but doing so reduces computational power from the GPU because there is no dedicated PPU on the XBOX360. Do you get it now?

Yes it does.
It has some PPU built into the GPU so it doesnt need an extra chip to do PPU.
Slide 10 of the recent released ATI slides show it does.

Do you get it now?

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
If we take out the manufacturer support and leave really the companies that produce movies we see that Blue Ray is not really winning. Movie companies will decide who wins not technology manufacturers. You think Paramount wants to give sony money for its movies because sony is the founder of blue ray? Why does paramount want to finance sony movie studios?

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox


Why did Microsoft and Intel side with HD DVD?
The companies cited several reasons for their decision. They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being. They also said HD DVD guarantees a feature they want, "managed copy," which lets a computer user copy a movie to a computer hard drive so it can be beamed around the house. The iHD software offers "greater interactivity," for example, letting a small screen with a movie director be overlaid onto the main video screen. HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player.

HD-DVD allows for great profitability. You know what that means to MPAA? KaChing! Advantage HD-DVD.

Neither Intel or Microsoft make Drives or are film studios. But here is something from HP & Dell on the matter: http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?date=2005-09-29

Sep 29, 2005 - Dell and Hewlett Packard Set the Record Straight on Blu-ray

Dell and Hewlett Packard, the worlds two largest PC manufacturers, today reiterated their support for Blu-ray and addressed the inaccurate information cited by Microsoft and Intel regarding the Blu-ray Disc format. "Every computer manufacturer in the BDA carefully reviewed both formats and ultimately chose Blu-ray as the superior solution for meeting customer demands and providing the best possible end-user experience," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business. "It is surprising that Tuesday's announcement is not aligned with that of the vast majority of the computer industry and is contrary to our consumer research." Virtually every computer company that has expressed a preference for a high definition disc format has chosen Blu-ray Disc as the superior format for computer platforms and applications, including top-tier computer brands such as Dell, Hewlett Packard, Panasonic, Sony and LG.


Information on the HD Format War (Includes support companies): http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/

A short selection of Blu-Ray Disc Association members:

Oct 2, 2005 - Paramount Home Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 17, 2005 - Lions Gate Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 15, 2005 - Universal Music Group Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jul 29, 2005 - Twentieth Century Fox to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Mar 10, 2005 - Apple Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 18, 2005 - Sonopress Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 6, 2005 - EA and Vivendi Universal Games Join the Blu-ray Disc Association


Lets also not forget, in japan you can already BUY Blu-Ray Drives for plugging into your nice new HD TV. Have HD-DVD reached that point yet?

These are the PRE-Microsoft and Intel moving support to HD-DVD dates. Lets see what happens now that Microsoft and Intel have changed sides.

Also Sony approached the groups recently to try to come to a deal between the two formats. They know HD-DVD in 50gig is broken and doesnt work.

Besides you dont need 50 gig for HD. Even in 1080i uncompressed you can get about 4 hours around 30 gig in DTS.

Flat out HD-DVD will win because its cheaper and profitability wins every time.

 

[Acanthus]

The physics capabilities of the X1000 series are severely hyped.

You cant do physics and a complex scene at the same time.

Gratz on having nothing but water looking fluid though.

The Ageia PPU is whats going to take physics to more realistic levels, if it ever sees the light of day.

Otherwise, its games going multithread that can depend on multicore that will do this.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

I agree with your analysis. This is why I might wind up getting the Revolution because in the end it all comes down to gameplay. An interactive controller like the Revolution might just be more fun than mashing buttons. I would enjoy a boxing, sword fighting, even fishing game if I were doing more of the movements. The people on G4 really say that the controller is something to get excited about and that the video doesnt do it justice.

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

I dont like the idea that Microsoft forgot about a mouse and keyboard. I also wanted HD or the ability to stream HD from my PC to the 360 which isnt known yet.

PS3 has problems in that they think the console will come with and without the Blue Ray drive because the overall cost of a blue ray is significant and is losing support. Dont expect a $300.00 PS3 with blue ray its already been estimated to cost $1000 with the blue ray drive. Sony will lose a ton of cash if thats true.

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

If you think the X2 has a PPU or that it's GPU can be used for physics your going to be disappointed.

I have a feeling I will be dissapointed otherwise I would suspect they would be shouting from the rooftops about this ability. I would like to see what the ATI 1000 series can do and what PPU abilities they have added.

Soon I dont think we will be comparing GPU to GPU but PPU to PPU and other minor details. It seems both cards are approaching ungodly resolutions at good frame rates with great eye candy. Sure there can be more improvements visually and thats what PPU is going to bring to the table.

There is still a very long ways to go for graphics cards, much higher resolution textures, MUCH larger clip planes, less noticable LOD drop off at a distance, AF that isnt a hackjob, stronger AA algorithims, and HDR that isnt just bloom lighting and making everything brigther.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
HDTV Man-

You might want to take a passing glance at HDTV related news once in a while-

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

Paramount has earlier stated that it will support both HD DVD and Blu-ray and wait and see what next generation optical format will come out as the winner. However it has now changed its mind will instead back up primarily Blu-ray.

Paramount.

One of the absolutely most important parts of the coming DVD-war are Hollywood's great movie studios. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray have been backed up by several studios and many of them have decided to support only one format. This was the case with both Paramount and Warner Bros. which earlier was faithful to HD DVD. Now it seems that both Paramount and Warner Bros. has switched partners to Blu-ray. There has now appeared information that points to that also Warner will make movies for the Blu-ray format, a big step back for HD DVD which now only has Universal left as a faithful HD DVD follower.

Warner Bros That includes HBO and New Line.

"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-ray in PlayStation 3," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures, Worldwide Home Entertainment.

Just to give you multiple sources.

That leaves Universal backing HD-DVD exclusively- everyone else has shifted to Blu-Ray. The next gen format wars are over, HD-DVD was obliterated before a single player launched and you can thank MS for handing Sony the victory. HD-DVD will go down as one of the larger losers in any format war ever- they were obliterated before they made it to market.

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox
Paramount
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video
Sony Studios

/format war

If the Crap you spewed is right, then we have already lost. I say we becuase I can't understand why someone would want to go through this.

A.) Pay for Royalties to Sony for ever pressed and Blank Blu-Ray disc
B.) Wait a decade for capacities that seem great but are almost impossible to make (which garantees a type of Blu-Ray2.)
C.) Once a backup solution is found (which we are allowed) have a future DVD make those same backups not work in the exact player you tested them on before.
D.) Put the $200-$300 purchace of a player in the hands of a $20 DVD in the hopes it won't fry your firmware because it thinks that your player or the disc itself has been hacked.

I really don't understand ow any one on AT would stand for that kind of trash. Me I am going to get a Hd-DVD box. I will also get a HD-DVD burner when they are available. I will then "back up" any blu-Raydisc I have (if it does win) and burn them on to HD-DVD discs for playback in my house.

The technology already exists and technically HD-DVD and BLUE RAY are already losing the war to HD-DIVX, TS, and even though they are H264 they are losing on that front also.

IODATA linkplayer 2 is a HD Media player. It can play HD-DIVX, TS, WMV9, and h264 files streamed, on a DVD, or from a USB hard drive or other usb device. Every day hollywood sits on its rear debating next gen technology it loses. Technology is moving forward reguardless of hollywood. Hollywood is failing to move the technology forward.

How long was MP3 out before the recording industry moved toward online music downloads?

If hollywood has half a brain it would get the cheap available today technology of HD-DVD out there and get the ball rolling before they are like the music industry crying over what MP3 could do to it.

All blue ray and HD-dvd are is higher capacity DVD's. Thats all. They are nothing more than a higher capacity disc. The reality is HD-DVD is cheaper to make both the media and the players. Blue ray adds nothing more than a higher cost and lower profit lines for the movie industry. The movie industry needs to move faster because alternatives are starting to replace what hollywood is not delivering.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The physics capabilities of the X1000 series are severely hyped.

You cant do physics and a complex scene at the same time.

Gratz on having nothing but water looking fluid though.

The Ageia PPU is whats going to take physics to more realistic levels, if it ever sees the light of day.

Otherwise, its games going multithread that can depend on multicore that will do this.

I believe you will be right on the hype but a little can go a long way. Much like SSE3 adds a small boost to certain applications. Having some Physics abilities is better than having none.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The physics capabilities of the X1000 series are severely hyped.

You cant do physics and a complex scene at the same time.

Gratz on having nothing but water looking fluid though.

The Ageia PPU is whats going to take physics to more realistic levels, if it ever sees the light of day.

Otherwise, its games going multithread that can depend on multicore that will do this.

I believe you will be right on the hype but a little can go a long way. Much like SSE3 adds a small boost to certain applications. Having some Physics abilities is better than having none.

While i completely agree with that statement, i think the performance hit for doing physics on the GPU will be so large on the X1000 series that it will never be used.

It wont be until graphics cards go .065 and smaller and have a ton of silicon to spare that we will see any tangible use for physics. Even then youre probably looking at a dedicated phyics processor being built in, vs just using the graphics pipelines.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The physics capabilities of the X1000 series are severely hyped.

You cant do physics and a complex scene at the same time.

Gratz on having nothing but water looking fluid though.

The Ageia PPU is whats going to take physics to more realistic levels, if it ever sees the light of day.

Otherwise, its games going multithread that can depend on multicore that will do this.

I believe you will be right on the hype but a little can go a long way. Much like SSE3 adds a small boost to certain applications. Having some Physics abilities is better than having none.

While i completely agree with that statement, i think the performance hit for doing physics on the GPU will be so large on the X1000 series that it will never be used.

It wont be until graphics cards go .065 and smaller and have a ton of silicon to spare that we will see any tangible use for physics. Even then youre probably looking at a dedicated phyics processor being built in, vs just using the graphics pipelines.

I dont believe it will be a performance hit at all but a performance improvement. Putting in special instructions that would hinder performance doesnt make sense. These would be specific instruction that would normally hinder performance if done by the CPU or GPU. By adding in special Physics routines it would improve performance not degrade it.

In actuallity it would allow developers to do things they normally wouldnt do because of the performance hit. So adding PPU abilities to a GPU can only help not hurt.

Like the waves demo shows this is now something that can be done on a console that otherwise wouldnt be able to without it.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan


The technology already exists and technically HD-DVD and BLUE RAY are already losing the war to HD-DIVX, TS, and even though they are H264 they are losing on that front also.

IODATA linkplayer 2 is a HD Media player. It can play HD-DIVX, TS, WMV9, and h264 files streamed, on a DVD, or from a USB hard drive or other usb device. Every day hollywood sits on its rear debating next gen technology it loses. Technology is moving forward reguardless of hollywood. Hollywood is failing to move the technology forward.

How long was MP3 out before the recording industry moved toward online music downloads?

If hollywood has half a brain it would get the cheap available today technology of HD-DVD out there and get the ball rolling before they are like the music industry crying over what MP3 could do to it.

All blue ray and HD-dvd are is higher capacity DVD's. Thats all. They are nothing more than a higher capacity disc. The reality is HD-DVD is cheaper to make both the media and the players. Blue ray adds nothing more than a higher cost and lower profit lines for the movie industry. The movie industry needs to move faster because alternatives are starting to replace what hollywood is not delivering.

I wish that is true that the are just larger capacity discs, but I do buy movies from the store every once and awhile and when it comes to playing those 2 back there is a big difference between the two which I have outlined above.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: HDTVMan


The technology already exists and technically HD-DVD and BLUE RAY are already losing the war to HD-DIVX, TS, and even though they are H264 they are losing on that front also.

IODATA linkplayer 2 is a HD Media player. It can play HD-DIVX, TS, WMV9, and h264 files streamed, on a DVD, or from a USB hard drive or other usb device. Every day hollywood sits on its rear debating next gen technology it loses. Technology is moving forward reguardless of hollywood. Hollywood is failing to move the technology forward.

How long was MP3 out before the recording industry moved toward online music downloads?

If hollywood has half a brain it would get the cheap available today technology of HD-DVD out there and get the ball rolling before they are like the music industry crying over what MP3 could do to it.

All blue ray and HD-dvd are is higher capacity DVD's. Thats all. They are nothing more than a higher capacity disc. The reality is HD-DVD is cheaper to make both the media and the players. Blue ray adds nothing more than a higher cost and lower profit lines for the movie industry. The movie industry needs to move faster because alternatives are starting to replace what hollywood is not delivering.

I wish that is true that the are just larger capacity discs, but I do buy movies from the store every once and awhile and when it comes to playing those 2 back there is a big difference between the two which I have outlined above.

I still buy movies too because I cant get HBO or other movie channels in HD. I use a pair of OTA recivers. Typically DVD extra content is worth it to me. But I am cutting back because I dont want to have to buy the movie again in HD format because I have HD but hollywood isnt providing it. Now hollywood will say pirates are causing the decline of movie sales but I know a lot of people like me who arent buying because they want a HD version of the movie with artwork etc. So why buy it twice because once you get the HD version your never going to watch the regular dvd version again. DVD becomes wasted cash. Typically I still buy the disney ones because I dont expect HD in my minivan and the kids need something to watch.

Heck I already own 4 copies of star wars. VHS, VHS WIDESREEN REMASTERED, VHS COLLECTORS, and DVD. That I will buy in HD but I dont need 2 copies of every movie one in DVD and one in HD. Most DVD are not worth my money any more.

HD-DVD needs to be here now. Not 6 months from now.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: route66

Having PPU doesnt take anything away from a GPU in performance. Read anandtech's article on how without physics the cards of today are brought to a crawl then try explaining to everyone how it hurts a GPU?

Yes, but the XBOX360 doesn't have a PPU so what is your point?

You're not even staying OT to your OP.

And please stop the circular logic of saying that the GPU of the XBOX360 can be used for the PPU - it doesn't work that way. It's not a dedicated PPU and takes processing power away form the GPU. That is what you are not getting.

Let me sum it up for you: There is no PPU on the XBOX360. Maybe the GPU can be used for physics instructions on the XBOX360, but doing so reduces computational power from the GPU because there is no dedicated PPU on the XBOX360. Do you get it now?

Yes it does.
It has some PPU built into the GPU so it doesnt need an extra chip to do PPU.
Slide 10 of the recent released ATI slides show it does.

Do you get it now?

No it doesn't. It doesn't actually tell you anything. It just somewhat mentions phsyics calculations are possible and that there might be future developments. There is no PPU, and they would have to use up GPU power to do that processing, which I don't think they will do for graphics intensive games. I can see a use for it in strange games that don't feature high end graphics, but for most games I do not see it as feasible.

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The physics capabilities of the X1000 series are severely hyped.

You cant do physics and a complex scene at the same time.

Gratz on having nothing but water looking fluid though.

The Ageia PPU is whats going to take physics to more realistic levels, if it ever sees the light of day.

Otherwise, its games going multithread that can depend on multicore that will do this.

I believe you will be right on the hype but a little can go a long way. Much like SSE3 adds a small boost to certain applications. Having some Physics abilities is better than having none.

While i completely agree with that statement, i think the performance hit for doing physics on the GPU will be so large on the X1000 series that it will never be used.

It wont be until graphics cards go .065 and smaller and have a ton of silicon to spare that we will see any tangible use for physics. Even then youre probably looking at a dedicated phyics processor being built in, vs just using the graphics pipelines.

I dont believe it will be a performance hit at all but a performance improvement. Putting in special instructions that would hinder performance doesnt make sense. These would be specific instruction that would normally hinder performance if done by the CPU or GPU. By adding in special Physics routines it would improve performance not degrade it.

In actuallity it would allow developers to do things they normally wouldnt do because of the performance hit. So adding PPU abilities to a GPU can only help not hurt.

Like the waves demo shows this is now something that can be done on a console that otherwise wouldnt be able to without it.

How long are these consoles supposed to last, 5 years or so right? Given how much technology evolves even a minor performance hit on the GPU would cause more harm than good in a year or 2. As soon as a game becomes GPU limited using Clock Cycles & Memory for something other than producing pretty pictures is not a good thing. CELL uses the SPE Cores to specialise in Physics/AI Processing while the main game code runs on the PPE (Main Core) and the RSX GPU. While each SPE only has 128k to work with it's not taking anything away from the PPE or the GPU to do it. I think that when they refresh the Console lineup with new features, a dedicated PPU would be on the list for any of them.

ATI's Physics on the GPU is nothing more than hype in my view. Just something to attempt to claw back ground from nVidia.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
HDTV Man-

You might want to take a passing glance at HDTV related news once in a while-

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

Paramount has earlier stated that it will support both HD DVD and Blu-ray and wait and see what next generation optical format will come out as the winner. However it has now changed its mind will instead back up primarily Blu-ray.

Paramount.

One of the absolutely most important parts of the coming DVD-war are Hollywood's great movie studios. Both HD DVD and Blu-ray have been backed up by several studios and many of them have decided to support only one format. This was the case with both Paramount and Warner Bros. which earlier was faithful to HD DVD. Now it seems that both Paramount and Warner Bros. has switched partners to Blu-ray. There has now appeared information that points to that also Warner will make movies for the Blu-ray format, a big step back for HD DVD which now only has Universal left as a faithful HD DVD follower.

Warner Bros That includes HBO and New Line.

"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-ray in PlayStation 3," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures, Worldwide Home Entertainment.

Just to give you multiple sources.

That leaves Universal backing HD-DVD exclusively- everyone else has shifted to Blu-Ray. The next gen format wars are over, HD-DVD was obliterated before a single player launched and you can thank MS for handing Sony the victory. HD-DVD will go down as one of the larger losers in any format war ever- they were obliterated before they made it to market.

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox
Paramount
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video
Sony Studios

/format war

If the Crap you spewed is right, then we have already lost. I say we becuase I can't understand why someone would want to go through this.

A.) Pay for Royalties to Sony for ever pressed and Blank Blu-Ray disc
B.) Wait a decade for capacities that seem great but are almost impossible to make (which garantees a type of Blu-Ray2.)
C.) Once a backup solution is found (which we are allowed) have a future DVD make those same backups not work in the exact player you tested them on before.
D.) Put the $200-$300 purchace of a player in the hands of a $20 DVD in the hopes it won't fry your firmware because it thinks that your player or the disc itself has been hacked.

I really don't understand ow any one on AT would stand for that kind of trash. Me I am going to get a Hd-DVD box. I will also get a HD-DVD burner when they are available. I will then "back up" any blu-Raydisc I have (if it does win) and burn them on to HD-DVD discs for playback in my house.

The technology already exists and technically HD-DVD and BLUE RAY are already losing the war to HD-DIVX, TS, and even though they are H264 they are losing on that front also.

IODATA linkplayer 2 is a HD Media player. It can play HD-DIVX, TS, WMV9, and h264 files streamed, on a DVD, or from a USB hard drive or other usb device. Every day hollywood sits on its rear debating next gen technology it loses. Technology is moving forward reguardless of hollywood. Hollywood is failing to move the technology forward.

How long was MP3 out before the recording industry moved toward online music downloads?

If hollywood has half a brain it would get the cheap available today technology of HD-DVD out there and get the ball rolling before they are like the music industry crying over what MP3 could do to it.

All blue ray and HD-dvd are is higher capacity DVD's. Thats all. They are nothing more than a higher capacity disc. The reality is HD-DVD is cheaper to make both the media and the players. Blue ray adds nothing more than a higher cost and lower profit lines for the movie industry. The movie industry needs to move faster because alternatives are starting to replace what hollywood is not delivering.

How can HD-DIVX be winning when its not a physical disc format but rather a software encoding format? You make no sense. They're going to have to put the data on some type of disc aren't they? What do you think Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are? Both of them support H.264 which means they'll be able to support the universal hi-def format. Sorry, but if you think DVDs are going to be enough for any software format then you're in for a big awakening. The whole point of hi-def is better quality, why would you want to compromise that with a heavy compression scheme?

I think you're buying too much into the FUD that Toshiba is spreading. Do you honestly think they're going to sell HD-DVD movies and players to consumers for less? I don't believe they will. Its cheaper for the companies but not the consumers, so why not get your money's worth? If Sony sells the PS3 for $750, that'll still be significantly cheaper than any HD-DVD player, which are expected to start at over $1000. Lets see, which will look better to consumers, a $750 Blu-Ray player that happens to also be a powerful gaming machine, or a $1000+ HD-DVD player that only plays movies? Hmm. Don't even start talking about the Xbox 360 getting an HD-DVD drive as its a long way off if it gets one, and thats if it gets one, which may never happen.

In all honesty, I don't think Toshiba even has the intention of releasing HD-DVD. They keep pushing it back for some reason or another. I think they're just using it to badger companies around. In fact, Toshiba had all but come out and said HD-DVD would only last a short while compared to DVDs even, as they're already wanting to push a different disc format that they've been working on but haven't really been able to get up and running quite yet.

As for royalties, HD-DVD is no different than Blu-Ray. Either way companies are going to be paying royalties to someone else.

As for Intel and Microsoft. Well Microsoft will support whoever wins. Them claiming to support one format means nothing, because if HD-DVD never makes it to market or gets clobbered then it would be pointless for MS not to support Blu-Ray, which they will one way or another, as Dell and HP and many other companies will be putting those drives in their computer systems. Intel all but doesn't matter as they have little to nothing to do with optical discs. Considering that most of the companies they deal with are supporting Blu-Ray, their stance on things doesn't matter.

 

[Genx87]

Is Blue-Ray backwards compatible with current DVD standard?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Is Blue-Ray backwards compatible with current DVD standard?

IIRC, no, but HD-DVD is.

 

[route66]

How many people does it take to tell HTDVMan he's wrong about the 'physics instructions' in the ATI GPU until he gets it.

This is the last time I will say it:

There is no PPU on an ATI GPU. ATI is using the GPU for general purpose math, from which this general purpose math is also quite good at physics. Using the GPU for general purpose math is faster than using a CPU for general purpose math, therefore ATI thinks its great. But what they don't explicitly say is that using the GPU for general purpose math (or physics) takes away processing power from the GPU to process graphics. There is no seperate 'pipeline' or 'core' to the ATI GPU that can be used for physics without removing processing power from the ATI GPU. The GPU on an XBOX360 is already at a bare minimum to keep profits up, therefore it is silly to take any processing power from the GPU to do physics unless the graphics on your game sucks. Using the ATI GPU for physics math isn't free processing - that processing power has to come from somewhere.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Genx87
Is Blue-Ray backwards compatible with current DVD standard?

IIRC, no, but HD-DVD is.

Nope, neither of them is with the lasers they use. However, they can put in a separate laser to read DVDs, which is what most companies are doing to get backwards compatibility.

Hmm, it looks like they're working on developing hybrid discs that can be read in both DVD and Blu-Ray players.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66
How many people does it take to tell HTDVMan he's wrong about the 'physics instructions' in the ATI GPU until he gets it.

This is the last time I will say it:

There is no PPU on an ATI GPU. ATI is using the GPU for general purpose math, from which this general purpose math is also quite good at physics. Using the GPU for general purpose math is faster than using a CPU for general purpose math, therefore ATI thinks its great. But what they don't explicitly say is that using the GPU for general purpose math (or physics) takes away processing power from the GPU to process graphics. There is no seperate 'pipeline' or 'core' to the ATI GPU that can be used for physics without removing processing power from the ATI GPU. The GPU on an XBOX360 is already at a bare minimum to keep profits up, therefore it is silly to take any processing power from the GPU to do physics unless the graphics on your game sucks. Using the ATI GPU for physics math isn't free processing - that processing power has to come from somewhere.

Again SLIDE 10 shows the GPU has PPU abilities.