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[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: DeathReborn

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: DeathReborn
I'd like to see this ATI X1800 Physics code running entirely on GPU and without using a SINGLE MHz or MB of the card. AGEIA PhysX PPU will use 128MB of GDDR3 for nothing but Physics.

For example:

How will losing 128MB on a X1800XT affect performance? What if it eats say 200MHz of the Core in Real World use (not some ATI tech demo), are you willing to lose 200MHz & 128MB Memory for it? For all we know it could use something like 16MB & 25MHz for Physics which defeats the object really. You don't get things for free, something always loses out in the process, the question is what.

Well its not even like that, Its about a card being able to handle Physics like math very well so when forced to compute it its faster then the GTX. If they ever did do this they would just sell a X1600 or something like it as a PPU instead of a Video card.

Being able to process Physics Code on thin air would be an awesome sight. I'm not saying it can't do physics calculations, i'm just saying it does it at a cost in performance. I'm quit frankly amazed at how many people think it can do the Physics WITHOUT a performance hit.

Just for those that don't read what I say but instead skim it: IT CAN do basic Physics calculations but just like everything, you need an input, a conversion & a output. You lot think you get an input and an output WITHOUT any work.

See I even question whether they can do both the Graphical and Physics work at the same time. In the end i think Agiea had it right, a dedicated PPU, so even if ATI rebrands one of their gfx cards as a PPU we will be better off. Oh well we will find out eventually.

 

[BenSkywalker]

If the Crap you spewed is right, then we have already lost. I say we becuase I can't understand why someone would want to go through this.

A.) Pay for Royalties to Sony for ever pressed and Blank Blu-Ray disc
B.) Wait a decade for capacities that seem great but are almost impossible to make (which garantees a type of Blu-Ray2.)
C.) Once a backup solution is found (which we are allowed) have a future DVD make those same backups not work in the exact player you tested them on before.
D.) Put the $200-$300 purchace of a player in the hands of a $20 DVD in the hopes it won't fry your firmware because it thinks that your player or the disc itself has been hacked.

I really don't understand ow any one on AT would stand for that kind of trash. Me I am going to get a Hd-DVD box. I will also get a HD-DVD burner when they are available. I will then "back up" any blu-Raydisc I have (if it does win) and burn them on to HD-DVD discs for playback in my house.

A) Licensing fees are being paid to the DVD consortium now.
B) FUD
C) You know it will be worked around, as have all the other techs preventing fair use
D) FUD

As of this point it is looking questionable that HD-DVD will end up launching, they have lost nigh all of their studio support- what point is there?

But Blu-Ray writeables because it is sony are going to take forever to come out if ever

Forever being they are already out of course. They haven't launched here quite yet, but you can already find them if you look around.

Now I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression here, you all seem to assume that I am a big supporter of BluRay- I'm just pointing out reality. I'm not arguing that it is the better tech, nor am I saying I have some desire to see it win. I'm simply pointing out the reality of the current situation. HD-DVD became a failure the moment MS decided to drop it as the pack in drive for the XB360. With Sony assuring an installed base of over 30 Million BluRay players without a single dedicated set top box being sold the format wars were almost over- predictably almost all of the studios then decided to back BluRay so now the format wars are over.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Genx87
Is Blue-Ray backwards compatible with current DVD standard?

IIRC, no, but HD-DVD is.

Nope, neither of them is with the lasers they use. However, they can put in a separate laser to read DVDs, which is what most companies are doing to get backwards compatibility.

Hmm, it looks like they're working on developing hybrid discs that can be read in both DVD and Blu-Ray players.

Oops. I confused discs with drives. Most Blu-Ray players will be able to read DVDs, I think that's what they meant by backwards compatibility.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

If the Crap you spewed is right, then we have already lost. I say we becuase I can't understand why someone would want to go through this.

A.) Pay for Royalties to Sony for ever pressed and Blank Blu-Ray disc
B.) Wait a decade for capacities that seem great but are almost impossible to make (which garantees a type of Blu-Ray2.)
C.) Once a backup solution is found (which we are allowed) have a future DVD make those same backups not work in the exact player you tested them on before.
D.) Put the $200-$300 purchace of a player in the hands of a $20 DVD in the hopes it won't fry your firmware because it thinks that your player or the disc itself has been hacked.

I really don't understand ow any one on AT would stand for that kind of trash. Me I am going to get a Hd-DVD box. I will also get a HD-DVD burner when they are available. I will then "back up" any blu-Raydisc I have (if it does win) and burn them on to HD-DVD discs for playback in my house.

A) Licensing fees are being paid to the DVD consortium now. - I will have to look this up.
B) FUD- Not fud Microsoft and Intel jumped out specifically because multi-layered discs where way behind and for all intents didn't exist.
C) You know it will be worked around, as have all the other techs preventing fair use
D) FUD -C and D are not FUD and workarounds are going to be possible But both are true techs that SONY plans on implimenting with BR and any type of the fly firmware updates by a disc should be seen as a dangerous and horrible copywrite pertection

As of this point it is looking questionable that HD-DVD will end up launching, they have lost nigh all of their studio support- what point is there?

The MPAA has backed BR because of the insane copy pertection that all should be aware of. I hate to sound like some conspiricy theorist. But really read up on it We need to stop thinking of the discs as just some form of media with higher transfer speeds and higher capacity because this is going to be a wholely different ballgame.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Not fud Microsoft and Intel jumped out specifically because multi-layered discs where way behind and for all intents didn't exist.

Wait a decade? When DVD first hit dual layer was also on the drawing board, within a relatively short period of time they were quite common. The wait a decade line was the FUD in that point.

C and D are not FUD and workarounds are going to be possible But both are true techs that SONY plans on implimenting with BR and any type of the fly firmware updates by a disc should be seen as a dangerous and horrible copywrite pertection

Sony designed players to be ruined by flashed firmware from a movie- are you trying to say that with a straight face? It comes off as extremely comical. Furthermore- how is this copywright protection dangerous in any way shape or form?

The MPAA has backed BR because of the insane copy pertection that all should be aware of. I hate to sound like some conspiricy theorist. But really read up on it

I have read up on it, I am not a criminal who should be in jail for stealing unlike most of those who seem extremely concerned about it. Why should I be worried in any way shape or form? I pay money for my movies and music- as should everyone who wants them every time.

We need to stop thinking of the discs as just some form of media with higher transfer speeds and higher capacity because this is going to be a wholely different ballgame.

Why? Because some low lifes might not be able to steal sh!t anymore? Good.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Not fud Microsoft and Intel jumped out specifically because multi-layered discs where way behind and for all intents didn't exist.

Wait a decade? When DVD first hit dual layer was also on the drawing board, within a relatively short period of time they were quite common. The wait a decade line was the FUD in that point.

C and D are not FUD and workarounds are going to be possible But both are true techs that SONY plans on implimenting with BR and any type of the fly firmware updates by a disc should be seen as a dangerous and horrible copywrite pertection

Sony designed players to be ruined by flashed firmware from a movie- are you trying to say that with a straight face? It comes off as extremely comical. Furthermore- how is this copywright protection dangerous in any way shape or form?

The MPAA has backed BR because of the insane copy pertection that all should be aware of. I hate to sound like some conspiricy theorist. But really read up on it

I have read up on it, I am not a criminal who should be in jail for stealing unlike most of those who seem extremely concerned about it. Why should I be worried in any way shape or form? I pay money for my movies and music- as should everyone who wants them every time.

We need to stop thinking of the discs as just some form of media with higher transfer speeds and higher capacity because this is going to be a wholely different ballgame.

Why? Because some low lifes might not be able to steal sh!t anymore? Good.

Well I am glad you feel High and mighty, but under law you are allowed one personal backup off any media, so this affects our ability to do this. Second, who is to say that this would only happen if you play a cracked or copied BR disc, if your disc is scratched or for any reason the player reads the wrong serial number, ordoesn't fit their play back algorithim it cold treat it as cracked disc and do the same thing. I am also sorry for you if you don't mind your player getting flashed eveytime they update the security, wether or not you have to put effort into it, me I understand that the more often an object is flashed they more likely it is that their will be a problem with the flash and not knowing how many times this is happened is even worse. I don't mind flashs for bugs and issues, but I should have a choice if this happens.

Second, the BDA is specifying the use of renewable encryption through a mechanism called BD+. If AACS (or some future protection scheme) is hacked, individual devices can be rendered inoperable until they download and implement a new scheme.

From

DRM Watch

 

[BenSkywalker]

Well I am glad you feel High and mighty, but under law you are allowed one personal backup off any media, so this affects our ability to do this.

People aren't panicking for that reason. That is for certain.

 

[Topweasel]

Because people are so unknowledgable about there rights, they tend not to notice them getting taken away. I also wonder how many false Positives people will get when a scratched disc or a player is acting up used. Hell just the False Positives alone without extra restrictions will probably be high enough. On BF2 every no and again I will get incorrect password with my saved password, I try imeadiately again and it logs in. Thats with a 6 letter password. Not exactly the 256bit encryption they are talking about, whats the chances something may happen. Hey we all are going to have to live with whatever unit that comes out. To you throwing Out Fair Use and possible device shutdowns are worth the extra space and faster access time. For me they are similair enough (and DL discs can be made easily for HD-DVD) in space and performance isn't a big issue, but as a PURCHASER of movies I don't want to take a chance with the 300-500 USD player that all the discs will play along nicely, and that I am allowwed to copy and use a disc that is scratched or I am worring about scratching.

Me Usability, You performance and Space.

I respect that, but I just hope you don't brush my comments aaway with a broom, because if BR is a hit, it might be to late to notice that I was right.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Because people are so unknowledgable about there rights, they tend not to notice them getting taken away.

I'm quite familiar with fair use "laws"- I'm also familiar with how they have already been worked around by numerous elements in the software and media industry. This is why I don't find it criminal for people to figure out workarounds to the security used by these devices.

I also wonder how many false Positives people will get when a scratched disc or a player is acting up used. Hell just the False Positives alone without extra restrictions will probably be high enough. On BF2 every no and again I will get incorrect password with my saved password, I try imeadiately again and it logs in. Thats with a 6 letter password. Not exactly the 256bit encryption they are talking about, whats the chances something may happen.

This is a text book example of FUD. There may end up being flaws in the security that causes legitimate useage interruptions- but you have nothing at all to back your implication that it is going to happen. You don't think Sony and Matsushita haven't thought of this? They didn't take over the electronics industry by being stupid(even though Sony certainly has made numerous stupid moves).

To you throwing Out Fair Use and possible device shutdowns are worth the extra space and faster access time.

When did I ever say that I wanted BluRay to win? This is where you are having issues- I'm not telling you what I want to see happen(outside of thiefs should spend time in jail), I'm telling you what is happening. All the studios are lining up behind BluRay, Intel is backing down from their hard line stance already(talking about BR making one adjustment and they will be on board) and Sony has made certain that it will have a staggering head start in installed base. It isn't about what I want to see happen- it is about reality.

but as a PURCHASER of movies I don't want to take a chance with the 300-500 USD player that all the discs will play along nicely, and that I am allowwed to copy and use a disc that is scratched or I am worring about scratching.

That is already an issue now with optical media- it is simply a matter of degrees we are talking about. As a father of five I can assure you that I am quite familiar with the cost of replacing damaged media- in all honesty in totality it is less expensive then it would have cost me to burn backups of all my movies(somewhere in the 400-500 range).

Me Usability, You performance and Space.

You- dream land, Me- reality

As I have stated numerous times- this has nothing to do with what I want- if you are watching a football game in the fourth quarter and one team is ahead by eight touchdowns and the team that is losing has lost every one of their stars it means nothing if you point out the obvious that the team crushing the other is going to win. It says nothing about who you want to win, it is simply stating the obvious- even if there are some extremely stubborn people who cling to a false hope.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Because people are so unknowledgable about there rights, they tend not to notice them getting taken away.

I'm quite familiar with fair use "laws"- I'm also familiar with how they have already been worked around by numerous elements in the software and media industry. This is why I don't find it criminal for people to figure out workarounds to the security used by these devices.

I also wonder how many false Positives people will get when a scratched disc or a player is acting up used. Hell just the False Positives alone without extra restrictions will probably be high enough. On BF2 every no and again I will get incorrect password with my saved password, I try imeadiately again and it logs in. Thats with a 6 letter password. Not exactly the 256bit encryption they are talking about, whats the chances something may happen.

This is a text book example of FUD. There may end up being flaws in the security that causes legitimate useage interruptions- but you have nothing at all to back your implication that it is going to happen. You don't think Sony and Matsushita haven't thought of this? They didn't take over the electronics industry by being stupid(even though Sony certainly has made numerous stupid moves).

To you throwing Out Fair Use and possible device shutdowns are worth the extra space and faster access time.

When did I ever say that I wanted BluRay to win? This is where you are having issues- I'm not telling you what I want to see happen(outside of thiefs should spend time in jail), I'm telling you what is happening. All the studios are lining up behind BluRay, Intel is backing down from their hard line stance already(talking about BR making one adjustment and they will be on board) and Sony has made certain that it will have a staggering head start in installed base. It isn't about what I want to see happen- it is about reality.

but as a PURCHASER of movies I don't want to take a chance with the 300-500 USD player that all the discs will play along nicely, and that I am allowwed to copy and use a disc that is scratched or I am worring about scratching.

That is already an issue now with optical media- it is simply a matter of degrees we are talking about. As a father of five I can assure you that I am quite familiar with the cost of replacing damaged media- in all honesty in totality it is less expensive then it would have cost me to burn backups of all my movies(somewhere in the 400-500 range).

Me Usability, You performance and Space.

You- dream land, Me- reality

As I have stated numerous times- this has nothing to do with what I want- if you are watching a football game in the fourth quarter and one team is ahead by eight touchdowns and the team that is losing has lost every one of their stars it means nothing if you point out the obvious that the team crushing the other is going to win. It says nothing about who you want to win, it is simply stating the obvious- even if there are some extremely stubborn people who cling to a false hope.

Hey not once did I say that BR wasn't going to win I just said I hope that someone wether god satan or Mr Burns kills it or that HD-DVD will win. Problem for you is that we are not in the Fourth quarter we are in the warmup before the game. True going into the game HD-DVD looks like it is going to be the under dog. But on that list of 100+ Partners is 75 studios (exageration probably I haven't looked at it in awhile) that of course would rather support BR then HD-DVD because of its "better" anti piracy techs. Outside of TDK and Phillips, HD-DVD is has all of the Media manufacturers, And Sony only has Themselves and a again Phillips on th eset top market. Who cares if BR has HPs support It will be years before the recordable will hit the market.

I think its a little less level then you let on and we still have the whole war to go, lets see how this all pans out.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Problem for you is that we are not in the Fourth quarter we are in the warmup before the game.

The game has been underway in the Far East for a while now, HD-DVD just never bothered to show up.

But on that list of 100+ Partners is 75 studios (exageration probably I haven't looked at it in awhile) that of course would rather support BR then HD-DVD because of its "better" anti piracy techs. Outside of TDK and Phillips, HD-DVD is has all of the Media manufacturers, And Sony only has Themselves and a again Phillips on th eset top market. Who cares if BR has HPs support It will be years before the recordable will hit the market.

There is so much misinformation here I'm going to have to take it a small bit at a time. First up, the members which include hardly any studios. There are a few, but overwhelmingly it is technology companies. The studios have signed on their support for the format, they aren't the onest driving the technology.

Media companies there is JVC, LG, Maxell, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, TDK, Sony and Verbatim.

Set top players there is Samsung, Pioneer and Philips showing off their current models with Mitsubishi, Panasonic and Sony displaying their prototypes as of now.

Then there are recorders. LG, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp and Sony all have current models with Hitachi, JVC, Mitsubishi, Yamaha and Zenith showing off prototypes.

You can buy a BluRay recorder RIGHT NOW, not some far off if ever future as is the case with HD-DVD.

Finally there are PC drives. Current models from Samsung, BenQ, HitachiLG, and Pioneer with prototypes from Panasonic, Sony and HP.

I think its a little less level then you let on and we still have the whole war to go, lets see how this all pans out.

The biggest surprise to me will be if HD-DVD ever launches at all- its failure is certain. The moment MS dropped the drive from the XB360 the next gen format wars were over. Blu-Ray is very far removed from what you seem to think it is- they are already available and the recorders are also already available, not in some far off time, today- right now. This war is clearly over- the HD-DVD consortium is begging Blu-Ray at this point for a 'compromise' to save face. It's too late- BR is already picking up steam in the retail market while HD-DVD is still vapourware.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Problem for you is that we are not in the Fourth quarter we are in the warmup before the game.

The game has been underway in the Far East for a while now, HD-DVD just never bothered to show up.

But on that list of 100+ Partners is 75 studios (exageration probably I haven't looked at it in awhile) that of course would rather support BR then HD-DVD because of its "better" anti piracy techs. Outside of TDK and Phillips, HD-DVD is has all of the Media manufacturers, And Sony only has Themselves and a again Phillips on th eset top market. Who cares if BR has HPs support It will be years before the recordable will hit the market.

There is so much misinformation here I'm going to have to take it a small bit at a time. First up, the members which include hardly any studios. There are a few, but overwhelmingly it is technology companies. The studios have signed on their support for the format, they aren't the onest driving the technology.

Media companies there is JVC, LG, Maxell, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, TDK, Sony and Verbatim.

Set top players there is Samsung, Pioneer and Philips showing off their current models with Mitsubishi, Panasonic and Sony displaying their prototypes as of now.

Then there are recorders. LG, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp and Sony all have current models with Hitachi, JVC, Mitsubishi, Yamaha and Zenith showing off prototypes.

You can buy a BluRay recorder RIGHT NOW, not some far off if ever future as is the case with HD-DVD.

Finally there are PC drives. Current models from Samsung, BenQ, HitachiLG, and Pioneer with prototypes from Panasonic, Sony and HP.

I think its a little less level then you let on and we still have the whole war to go, lets see how this all pans out.

The biggest surprise to me will be if HD-DVD ever launches at all- its failure is certain. The moment MS dropped the drive from the XB360 the next gen format wars were over. Blu-Ray is very far removed from what you seem to think it is- they are already available and the recorders are also already available, not in some far off time, today- right now. This war is clearly over- the HD-DVD consortium is begging Blu-Ray at this point for a 'compromise' to save face. It's too late- BR is already picking up steam in the retail market while HD-DVD is still vapourware.

Fine whatever, I am not debating who is going to win or lose I am debating that we will be screwed if BR wins. I am saying that no matter who comes out first, or who has the bigger potential install base, that we should vote with our pockets.

Side Points,

Didn't really pay much attention to some of hte BR media companies because in the end they don't matter. TDK while they make their own media out source alot to CMC (HD-DVD) Maxell hasn't been a real force in the media department since cassette and VHS, Sony makes some media again but alot of their discs are TAIYO YUDEN CO.,LTD.

CMC, Taiyo Yuden, Ritek, and Mitsui Chemicals, Inc. Are by far larger and more wide spread manufacturers I willing to bet that together all of them make up 80-90% of the market of DVD and CD sales.

What I don't understand Is that everyone keeps talking of available Japanese BR set tops and the Sony burner but every thing I have read as implied or stated that even after the 06 delay of HD-DVD it is more along with with consumer priced devices. Everything is riding on the PS3 selling out and people buying BR movies front. My guess is the group that sells sub-$300 players and has the cheapest movies (hahahaha like this would ever happen) will win. For me I hope it is like I have said beofore HD-DVD, You like BR on the other hand I don't understand why but thats your choice.

 

[BenSkywalker]

You like BR on the other hand I don't understand why but thats your choice.

What have I ever said that makes you think I like BR better? I'm simply not a moron- Warner is now an official backer of BluRay btw. Every studio is backing BluRay now with a few behind HD-DVD. Outside of the die hard pirates, who else do you think is going to choose HD-DVD over BR as of this point? It makes no sense.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

You like BR on the other hand I don't understand why but thats your choice.

What have I ever said that makes you think I like BR better? I'm simply not a moron- Warner is now an official backer of BluRay btw. Every studio is backing BluRay now with a few behind HD-DVD. Outside of the die hard pirates, who else do you think is going to choose HD-DVD over BR as of this point? It makes no sense.

Actually Sony, and I believe Parmount and one other company actually are the only Studios that are supporting only BR. Warner and Universal were the only ones to support only HD-DVD now its just Universal. The rest are going to support both till one becomes the defacto choice, for them if you buy a movie in HD DVD and BR wins the assume you will end up having to purchase it in BR as well so its kind of a win win. BR just acts like having the studios backings means they only are supporting them thats actually very far from the truth. I really thought we were having a good conversation I don't understand why you had to revert to name calling.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Actually Sony, and I believe Parmount and one other company actually are the only Studios that are supporting only BR.

Paramount is on the HD-DVD board and they are shifting to BR only..... think about that. Also, Fox is exclusive to BR as of right now IIRC.

Warner and Universal were the only ones to support only HD-DVD now its just Universal.

We will see how long Universal holds out.

The rest are going to support both till one becomes the defacto choice, for them if you buy a movie in HD DVD and BR wins the assume you will end up having to purchase it in BR as well so its kind of a win win.

It isn't a win/win though- if there is an ongoing format war then consumers won't buy either format en masse. The studios know this and have made public comments about it. Sure, the .5% of die hard enthusiasts may end going through multiple libraries, but they are insignificant compared to the 99.5% of general consumers.

I really thought we were having a good conversation I don't understand why you had to revert to name calling.

My apologies, I genuinely meant no insult towards you in any way. It's just that I have been following the industry very closely and analyzing consumer demand in advance of products release is part of my real life job. I see no chance for HD-DVD, it is a dead format.

 

[Topweasel]

Sorry Ben for getting a little touchy there with the whole moron thing Its just I had made it clear that I perfer and wish success of HD-DVD over Blu-Ray and I took the whole a Moron should that BR is going to see succeed thing wrong. I infact agree that HD-DVDs outlook looks grim maybe even worse then that. But for me my biased hatred for every sony media ever designed and thier complete disregard for Fair use, makes me at what ever cost I need to spend to put my hat into the war on HD-DVDs side to make its success even more likely I will. I will by the first sub $1000 deck that comes out. I will buy every movie that I like that they carry in HD-DVD. I guess like any format war the consumer makes the choice and if everyone became educated and spoke with their money, then the war would be over and HD-DVD would KO BR on opening day.