*

[rahzel]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
I think the Xbox360 may not kill the PS3, but it will definately take the console lead this time.

Think about it. Xbox 360 has every advantage the PS2 had over the Xbox this time.

It is comming out nearly a year earlier

It is faster

It is cheaper

When the PS3 does come out, Halo 3 launches

Possible Xbox 360 price drop when the PS3 launches

A very solid game lineup

Online support out of the box


All these things and more will make the Xbox360 dig in a very solid foothold in the console industry way before the PS3 is even out.

i thought the PS3 was faster than the Xbox 360?

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: rahzel

Originally posted by: dguy6789
I think the Xbox360 may not kill the PS3, but it will definately take the console lead this time.

Think about it. Xbox 360 has every advantage the PS2 had over the Xbox this time.

It is comming out nearly a year earlier

It is faster

It is cheaper

When the PS3 does come out, Halo 3 launches

Possible Xbox 360 price drop when the PS3 launches

A very solid game lineup

Online support out of the box


All these things and more will make the Xbox360 dig in a very solid foothold in the console industry way before the PS3 is even out.

i thought the PS3 was faster than the Xbox 360?

Marketing people claim that the PS3 is twice as fast as the XBox 360, but in real terms, who knows, they are probably fairly similar.
But being more powerful doesn't mean much, just think of the current gen where the GC is probably the most powerful, and PS2 the weakest.

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Well seeing as the PS3 can support 1080P and dual HD displays, the XboX has a lot of catching up to do.

Good luck playing pong at 1080p. :laugh: I think it was already discussed that the fillrate at that high resolution isnt matched by the PS3.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Any GPU can do physics processing if you program it.

Yeah, but it will be really slow. Just see how the G70 performs compared to R520 in that area.

Originally posted by: James3shin
what are you talking about? The MGS4 trailer was real time.

Real time ! = Gameplay

 

[route66]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
You dont understand that a GPU and PPU are 2 different things? You can do some big math on a GPU but they dont crank out physics like a PPU will. Of course only the new ATI 1000 series adds some PPU abilities. The NVIDIA card DO NOT!

You don't understand that ATI did not add 'physics instructions' to the ATI1K series. What ATI did is make the lower level available to developers, so you can use the lower level for the math. While using the lower level for general purpose math you are taking processing power away from the GPU that can be used for graphics. Considering that the GPU in the XBOX360 is already a bare minimum, taking any processing power away is stupid.

I predict nVidia will also make the lower level available for people to use for general purpose math.

You obviously didnt see what PhysX compared to the TOP end systems of today without the physX. They demo'd it on G4 and without one in certain scenes it brougt the all mighty top of the line down to what looked like 1FPS.

So what. Does the XBOX360 have a PhysX? No. So why are you bringing it up? You are upset with others for not reading your original post, but you are also going off on a tangent.

 

[fishbits]

Funny thing to me is that looking around right now, the Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube are all good systems with good games. Sure there's areas where some shine more, but if you only bought one, you didn't end up with an unfun useless, paperweight. I imagine the same will be true of the coming generation. Arguing about which's processor(s) can have the most digital angels dancing on the head of a digital pin is pretty pointless right now. You only go wrong if one of the systems is a total dog, and that can be seen by simply looking at it and the games for a month after it comes out. Barring that, each one will be a generational leap and really neat.

I think a lot of this talk traces back to folks who'll only be getting one new console for quite a while, wanting to play up the merits of their choice and run down the merits of the competition to make themselves feel better and alleviate the stress of "Oh man, what if I pick the 'wrong' one!" Compound this by folks who've been bitten badly by the bug and are making their decision to buy before the hardware and games are even out. Folks who are getting 360s who are trying to convince themselves it's worth it to pay release prices and not even take a look at PS3 first. Folks who are getting PS3 and facing possibly even higher release prices, and are trying to convince themselves it's ok to miss out on next-gen gaming for 6 months+ by skipping the 360. The interesting thing to me is that Nintendo has largely been able to sidestip this mess, which is pretty cool. They haven't made any outlandish claims about CPU/GPU, and are content to folks look at the system as a whole and see if they like it or not.

My speculation? All three systems will at least be good and fun with a lot of titles. As for the hardware inside, when it comes right down to it, I don't care if they're filled with graham crackers and glitter.

 

[Genx87]

Those Cell cores couldnt do Physics could it?

nah

If it is a big deal I am sure they could add a 3rd party physics processor. But I am sure the fact that the xBox360 has a GPU that can do Physics within its core will knock the PS3 out of the market. Most people probably have zero clue what a physics processor even is, much less care enough to not buy a PS3 because of it.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
I don't believe Nintendo has released the specs for the Revolution yet, so you can't compare it to either the PS3 or X360 at this point. In fact, I don't think you can compare the PS3 to the X360 as it hasn't been finalized yet either.

I don't think that even with a bunch of great games that the Revolution will necessarily outsell either of the other two. The Gamecube has plenty of great games, but it hasn't exactly helped Nintendo all that much. Nintendo isn't as trendy and popular as Halo or Playstation, and if anything, it seems to me that the controller design has had the opposite affect Nintendo was aiming for. Most casual gamers I know are saying its retarded.

Nintendo and IBM are partnering for the CPU.

I don't think the GPUs in the X360 or PS3 are powerful enough to do good physics and good graphics at the same time, so it wouldn't make sense for them to even use the GPU for physics, but hey if they've figured out someway to do it then great. I don't care what chip does what, just so long as it gets done.

The recent 1000 series from ATI has some Physics built into it and if its built into the xbox 360 GPU then developers will use it.

Having physics processing is significant. Like I stated that is the next revolution in gaming. You have to see what a Physics processor can do compared to the top end CPU with Graphics card. Its Night and day. Just like when we all got our first Voodoo card. It can make that much difference today. When the PhysX cards come out in about a month you will get to see how significant this is.

I highly recommend downloading the video's of PhysX and see how amazing this will make gaming. Then you will realize if the xbox 360 has some of this built in then some games are really going to push the envelope of what we consider to be amazing today.

I would only expect that on games that arent cross platform titles. Anything that will come out on more than one platform will go with the lowest common denominator.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: eelw

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

The PS3 won't be as successful as the prior consoles with the outrageous price point that they are aiming at. Sony is delusional if they think that its 90+ million Playstation fanbase will pickup the PS3 at $500. Sony will take a huge dip in consoles sold this next gen solely on price alone.

I dunno, I am seeing the top end xBox 360(the one everybody will really want to buy) going for near 450 bucks.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17

Not sure where you're getting all this Blu-Ray stuff from. Sony is going to put a BD-ROM drive in every PS3. Why? Because they have to. They have to get them in people's homes so people buy Blu-Ray over HD-DVD so that Sony will win that war. They've already spent the money developing it, they just need to now get it in the market so that they can start making money off of it.

The reason why HD-DVD and BD players will cost so much is because they'll need powerful chips to decode them, something the PS3 already has in both Cell and the nVidia GPU. Not only that, but they'll put higher end DACs and other tech in those players that they can do without or through software on the PS3.

The X360 has USB ports. Its up to game developers to include mouse and keyboard support, so I don't see where the problem there is.

I think you're seeing things in the wrong way. Comparing total power, this phsyics-GPU development has no impact. The reason being is that its not like suddenly the GPU can do both of these things at the same time and that makes it more powerful. Either it'll be doing a lot of physics and some graphics or a lot of graphics and little physics. Its not like they put an extra chip in there to give it more power. Its they're going to give the same chip more work to do. Considering that they seem to not even be using the multiple cores to much effect so far, it would make more sense to spend the extra development time into making use of them I would think.

I thought I read somewhere that MS would add HD support to the X2 at a later date. They may just wait and see which is more popular and include support for that.

Hopefully Blu-Ray will win so we have a better optical storage upgrade for our computers.

 

[skace]

Here comes the hype machine! CHOOOO CHOOOO!1!!

Fact: Any time someone calls something a product killer they are talking out their ass and usually end up eating their words months down the road.

 

[kamranziadar]

The only upper hand XBOX360 has over PS3 is the product release date, they are launching XBOX at least 6 months early then PS3.

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Those Cell cores couldnt do Physics could it?

nah

If it is a big deal I am sure they could add a 3rd party physics processor. But I am sure the fact that the xBox360 has a GPU that can do Physics within its core will knock the PS3 out of the market. Most people probably have zero clue what a physics processor even is, much less care enough to not buy a PS3 because of it.

AT touched on the Cell CPU's Physics capabilities in this article: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379&p=3

Also this might be of interest to those saying the PS3 simply doesn't have what it takes: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ent...s-of-the-new-cell-processor-032535.php

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
You dont understand that a GPU and PPU are 2 different things? You can do some big math on a GPU but they dont crank out physics like a PPU will. Of course only the new ATI 1000 series adds some PPU abilities. The NVIDIA card DO NOT!

You don't understand that ATI did not add 'physics instructions' to the ATI1K series. What ATI did is make the lower level available to developers, so you can use the lower level for the math. While using the lower level for general purpose math you are taking processing power away from the GPU that can be used for graphics. Considering that the GPU in the XBOX360 is already a bare minimum, taking any processing power away is stupid.

I predict nVidia will also make the lower level available for people to use for general purpose math.

You obviously didnt see what PhysX compared to the TOP end systems of today without the physX. They demo'd it on G4 and without one in certain scenes it brougt the all mighty top of the line down to what looked like 1FPS.

So what. Does the XBOX360 have a PhysX? No. So why are you bringing it up? You are upset with others for not reading your original post, but you are also going off on a tangent.

Having PPU doesnt take anything away from a GPU in performance. It ENHANCES it by taking away something that would be costly in GPU/CPU percentage and replaces it with something that can be calculated much much faster. Having Physics abilities in a GPU or CPU or third party card is a substantial improvement. Especially since the CPU's being used in the 360 and PS3 arent physics monsters like a PPU.

Read anandtech's article on how without physics the cards of today are brought to a crawl then try explaining to everyone how it hurts a GPU?

I never implied the PhysX is in the 360. Since no one was grasping the concept of what a PPU adds to gameplay I was using it to outline how it will make a major revolution in future gameplay. Which also brings me to the thought that the Nintendo Revolution may possibly not be as wimpy as we expect. It might not have the CPU power but with Physics abilities it may be able to womp some butt because it can use the physics abilities which can enhance a CPU/GPU to produce much more than those without one. Physics plays a massively major roll in every 3d game and especially every future game and physics is the next generation of gaming you will need because currently the CPU and GPU couldnt hack it without it. ATI is obviously smart enough to realize this and added some physics to its 1000 line or cards. This is going to be major. You watch because NVIDIA is going to be rushing to add physics to its next gen card.

 

[HDTVMan]

Wow looky at that Physics in the Xbox 360 GPU. Me thinks PS3 should start worrying.
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9487/ATI-Releases-Xbox-360-GPU-Technology-Papers/

 

[Eureka]

Bah, computer components shouldn't be what makes or breaks a system. It should be the games that are on it. I wouldn't care if the xbox360 is 10x faster than the ps3; if the ps3 has MGS4 in it, it owns me.

Norm

 

[BenSkywalker]

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

Ageia already went on record stating that Cell(by its lonesome) can handle all of the physics calculations their PPU can in game, the XB360 can't. This is using prerelease underpowered PS3 dev kits and final XB360 hardware. Ageia stated that Cell would be able to do anything physics wise a PC running a top of line dual core CPU with one of their PPUs could do, the XB360 failed to come close to acceptable performance levels(although they were still trying to get it working).

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

BluRay won, at this point it is looking increasingly like HD-DVD will never be released in any capacity. One studio is left fighting for HD-DVD, all the others are either fully behind BluRay or plan on supporting it no matter what happens with HD-DVD. The assured installed base of 30Million plus within a few years was too much for the studios to ignore.

Good luck playing pong at 1080p. I think it was already discussed that the fillrate at that high resolution isnt matched by the PS3.

Extremely ignorant people it must have been too. Go check some benches of a 7800GTX running 1920x1080 and see what kind of framerates its pushing..... back? Then you have undoubtedly noticed that it significantly exceeds the highest spec for 1080p in any shipping display. Good, glad we got that all cleared up.

 

[James3shin]

Cell's were shown (in realtime) at E3 rendering and doing the physics calculations for a scene of a gas station blowing up.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: cevilgenius
Bah, computer components shouldn't be what makes or breaks a system. It should be the games that are on it. I wouldn't care if the xbox360 is 10x faster than the ps3; if the ps3 has MGS4 in it, it owns me.

Norm

PS3Today.com and PS3Focus.com have reported a recent Japanese article about PS3 developer support, which has an insider source claiming that the initial investment for PS3 software development it at least ¥2 billion (U$S 17.6 million), and that figure does not include the actual development costs associated directly with the title.

This initial investment, according to this insider source, is "nothing but a nightmare for many Japanese software development companies."

The article also reveals that the prevailing rumor in Japanese game development circles is that many companies may end up developing for the Xbox 360, which will lower R&D costs since the system shares many similarities with Windows game development, allowing developers to release a single title on both platforms.

MGS4 might just get developed on the 360 if that is true. Im kidding but other developers wont feel so good developing on such a costly level.

PS3 is going to hing on price. If its $500.00 because they made the mistake of having a blue-ray drive then its going to be hard to convince a parent to purchase a PS3 over a cheaper 360 which when done you could have a few games for the same price. Sony is going to take a blood bath in pricing unless they come out with 2 different PS3's. Everyone loses money in consoles but Sony may have bitten off more than it can chew and blue ray is a mistake because its just too costly and its still has problems. That is why Microsoft and Intel attacked and abandoned Blue Ray because HD-DVD is further advanced and cheaper to produce. It may not have the capacity of Blue Ray but guess what. Blue Ray only in theory goes to its announced capacity. They have yet to produce it and prove it works at that level. Some Movie studios are also starting to see the light that Blue Ray is on its way out even before its launched.

Sony can make mistakes too look at PSP support? Games Lacking? Yup. PSP owners are complaining about the lack of PSP games.

PS1 and PS2 were great I love them but Microsoft looks to me like they are playing to win this round.

 

[Drayvn]

When did Ageia say that Cell was as good as their physx card?

I didnt think that Cell could work on 30000 physical objects at 1 time.

Anyway the Physx high end card has like 230 million transistors at 130nm, the Cell CPU has the same amount of transistors but on 90nm... so umm how did they fit all that in?

 

[James3shin]

Originally posted by: Drayvn
When did Ageia say that Cell was as good as their physx card?

I didnt think that Cell could work on 30000 physical objects at 1 time.

Anyway the Physx high end card has like 230 million transistors at 130nm, the Cell CPU has the same amount of transistors but on 90nm... so umm how did they fit all that in?

Magical Gnomes

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: James3shin

Originally posted by: Drayvn
When did Ageia say that Cell was as good as their physx card?

I didnt think that Cell could work on 30000 physical objects at 1 time.

Anyway the Physx high end card has like 230 million transistors at 130nm, the Cell CPU has the same amount of transistors but on 90nm... so umm how did they fit all that in?

Magical Gnomes

 

[HDTVMan]

If we take out the manufacturer support and leave really the companies that produce movies we see that Blue Ray is not really winning. Movie companies will decide who wins not technology manufacturers. You think Paramount wants to give sony money for its movies because sony is the founder of blue ray? Why does paramount want to finance sony movie studios?

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox


Why did Microsoft and Intel side with HD DVD?
The companies cited several reasons for their decision. They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being. They also said HD DVD guarantees a feature they want, "managed copy," which lets a computer user copy a movie to a computer hard drive so it can be beamed around the house. The iHD software offers "greater interactivity," for example, letting a small screen with a movie director be overlaid onto the main video screen. HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player.

HD-DVD allows for great profitability. You know what that means to MPAA? KaChing! Advantage HD-DVD.

 

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
If we take out the manufacturer support and leave really the companies that produce movies we see that Blue Ray is not really winning. Movie companies will decide who wins not technology manufacturers. You think Paramount wants to give sony money for its movies because sony is the founder of blue ray? Why does paramount want to finance sony movie studios?

HD-DVD (30 GB WORKING TODAY)
Paramount
Universal
HBO
New Line Cinema
Warner Home Video

BLUE RAY (25 GIG WORKING, 50 JUST IN THEORY VAPORWARE)
Fox
Walt Disney
Twentieth Century Fox


Why did Microsoft and Intel side with HD DVD?
The companies cited several reasons for their decision. They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being. They also said HD DVD guarantees a feature they want, "managed copy," which lets a computer user copy a movie to a computer hard drive so it can be beamed around the house. The iHD software offers "greater interactivity," for example, letting a small screen with a movie director be overlaid onto the main video screen. HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player.

HD-DVD allows for great profitability. You know what that means to MPAA? KaChing! Advantage HD-DVD.

Neither Intel or Microsoft make Drives or are film studios. But here is something from HP & Dell on the matter: http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?date=2005-09-29

Sep 29, 2005 - Dell and Hewlett Packard Set the Record Straight on Blu-ray

Dell and Hewlett Packard, the worlds two largest PC manufacturers, today reiterated their support for Blu-ray and addressed the inaccurate information cited by Microsoft and Intel regarding the Blu-ray Disc format. "Every computer manufacturer in the BDA carefully reviewed both formats and ultimately chose Blu-ray as the superior solution for meeting customer demands and providing the best possible end-user experience," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business. "It is surprising that Tuesday's announcement is not aligned with that of the vast majority of the computer industry and is contrary to our consumer research." Virtually every computer company that has expressed a preference for a high definition disc format has chosen Blu-ray Disc as the superior format for computer platforms and applications, including top-tier computer brands such as Dell, Hewlett Packard, Panasonic, Sony and LG.


Information on the HD Format War (Includes support companies): http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/

A short selection of Blu-Ray Disc Association members:

Oct 2, 2005 - Paramount Home Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 17, 2005 - Lions Gate Entertainment to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Aug 15, 2005 - Universal Music Group Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jul 29, 2005 - Twentieth Century Fox to Support Blu-ray Disc Format
Mar 10, 2005 - Apple Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 18, 2005 - Sonopress Joins Blu-ray Disc Association
Jan 6, 2005 - EA and Vivendi Universal Games Join the Blu-ray Disc Association


Lets also not forget, in japan you can already BUY Blu-Ray Drives for plugging into your nice new HD TV. Have HD-DVD reached that point yet?

 

[Sonikku]

Fact: Sony said their PS3 is going to be better then the 360.
Sony said it, so it has to be true.

Just wait. I bet Sony's cell cpu has more speed then 4 AMD quad opertons running at 5ghz each or something.

 

[Velk]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

Ageia already went on record stating that Cell(by its lonesome) can handle all of the physics calculations their PPU can in game, the XB360 can't. This is using prerelease underpowered PS3 dev kits and final XB360 hardware. Ageia stated that Cell would be able to do anything physics wise a PC running a top of line dual core CPU with one of their PPUs could do, the XB360 failed to come close to acceptable performance levels(although they were still trying to get it working).

Do you have a source URL for that ? That they would put down their own product is interesting, given it's a significant portion of the cost of a PS3 - must be a developer blog of some description ?

Their marketing guys have been pretty cagey about stuff like that, even in response to direct questions, e.g.

GS: How does the Ageia PhysX chip compare to the Cell processor?

MH: From what we understand, the Cell processor will have physics capabilities, hence, the recent SCEI announcement that it will include the PhysX SDK in its standard PlayStation 3 software development kit. It remains to be seen at what extent it compares in features to the PhysX processor.