*

[DeathReborn]

Originally posted by: Sunrise089
Fact: According to this site's own (pulled) article if Nintendo used a single off-the-shelf Athlon 64 they would easily outperform Xbox 360's tri-processors.

Fact: The Xbox was more powerfull than the Gamecube, and the GC was more powerfull than the PS-2. This did not effect sales IN THE LEAST. Multiplatform games will be designed for the least common demoninator, and single platform games will be dependent on gameplay and marketing.

Anyone who thinks a GPU will allow the Xbox 360 to defeat the PS-3 due to raw power needs to go back in time and purchase an interest in these other surefire systems by virtue of their power reletive their competitors

1) Sega CD
2) Sega Saturn
3) Nintendo Virtual Boy
4) Sega Dreamcast
5) N-Gage

Best of luck

Top 10 failed consoles can be found here explaining why they failed: http://archive.gamespy.com/top10/february04/consoles/

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Sunrise089
Fact: According to this site's own (pulled) article if Nintendo used a single off-the-shelf Athlon 64 they would easily outperform Xbox 360's tri-processors.

Fact: The Xbox was more powerfull than the Gamecube, and the GC was more powerfull than the PS-2. This did not effect sales IN THE LEAST. Multiplatform games will be designed for the least common demoninator, and single platform games will be dependent on gameplay and marketing.

Anyone who thinks a GPU will allow the Xbox 360 to defeat the PS-3 due to raw power needs to go back in time and purchase an interest in these other surefire systems by virtue of their power reletive their competitors

1) Sega CD
2) Sega Saturn
3) Nintendo Virtual Boy
4) Sega Dreamcast
5) N-Gage

Best of luck

GPU and PPU are 2 different things. In a surprise twist the ATI 1000 series has some PPU abilities built in. The question is does the 360 also have some of these PPU instructions built in. If so this is major.

See this to understand or wait till next month when you looking for 300.00 to buy a PPU for your PC.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1710882&enterthread=y

 

[route66]

Originally posted by: HDTVManThe recent 1000 series from ATI has some Physics built into it and if its built into the xbox 360 GPU then developers will use it.

Are you a broken record, or something?

The physics processing isn't free - it's taking computational power away from the GPU that can be used for better graphics.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66

Originally posted by: HDTVManThe recent 1000 series from ATI has some Physics built into it and if its built into the xbox 360 GPU then developers will use it.

Are you a broken record, or something?

The physics processing isn't free - it's taking computational power away from the GPU that can be used for better graphics.

I know I hate being a broken record but a few are missing the point of what physics processing brings to the table. Maybe they arent reading the thread and are just focusing on the 360 GPU vs PS3 GPU which is not what I am referring to.

My comparison is that visually the games across all 3 systems will be near identical maybe a small improvement in one over the other but nothing significant that will make a major difference. My comparison was madden on the 3 existing systems.

The killer is the possibility of PPU instructions in the XBOX 360 GPU. If they exist that is a major item and will add levels of game realism that a system without PPU wont be able to match. I then posted what a PPU is and what it adds but some are still missing the point.

Most wont understand this until the PhysX card comes out.

 

[Sunrise089]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: Sunrise089
Fact: According to this site's own (pulled) article if Nintendo used a single off-the-shelf Athlon 64 they would easily outperform Xbox 360's tri-processors.

Fact: The Xbox was more powerfull than the Gamecube, and the GC was more powerfull than the PS-2. This did not effect sales IN THE LEAST. Multiplatform games will be designed for the least common demoninator, and single platform games will be dependent on gameplay and marketing.

Anyone who thinks a GPU will allow the Xbox 360 to defeat the PS-3 due to raw power needs to go back in time and purchase an interest in these other surefire systems by virtue of their power reletive their competitors

1) Sega CD
2) Sega Saturn
3) Nintendo Virtual Boy
4) Sega Dreamcast
5) N-Gage

Best of luck

GPU and PPU are 2 different things. In a surprise twist the ATI 1000 series has some PPU abilities built in. The question is does the 360 also have some of these PPU instructions built in. If so this is major.

See this to understand or wait till next month when you looking for 300.00 to buy a PPU for your PC.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1710882&enterthread=y

Look, I'm not an industry columnist or anything, but I really am not sure you understand consoles. PLEASE tell me when a console has actually been successful based primarely on hardware performance. I would have like to have seen you in the meeting where Nintendo pitched the idea for the GBA.

Also: $300 for physics - I do not care how good they are, NOONE who doesn't already own SLI'd GTXs would buy that.

 

[route66]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
The killer is the possibility of PPU instructions in the XBOX 360 GPU. If they exist that is a major item and will add levels of game realism that a system without PPU wont be able to match. I then posted what a PPU is and what it adds but some are still missing the point.

You also don't understand that any GPU can be used for 'physics math'. Just what exactly do you think 'physics' instructions are?

Besides, the GPU in consoles is already the bare minimum to increase profit - to take any computational power away from them would be stupid.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
The killer is the possibility of PPU instructions in the XBOX 360 GPU. If they exist that is a major item and will add levels of game realism that a system without PPU wont be able to match. I then posted what a PPU is and what it adds but some are still missing the point.

You also don't understand that any GPU can be used for 'physics math'. Just what exactly do you think 'physics' instructions are?

Besides, the GPU in consoles is already the bare minimum to increase profit - to take any computational power away from them would be stupid.

You obviously didnt see what PhysX compared to the TOP end systems of today without the physX. They demo'd it on G4 and without one in certain scenes it brougt the all mighty top of the line down to what looked like 1FPS.

No you cannot do what the PhysX does with a GPU without bringing it to a crawl.

Im sorry you dont agree. When the PhysX is released next month you tell me you dont need physics processing and that your SLI GPU can do just as good. LOL.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: route66

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
The killer is the possibility of PPU instructions in the XBOX 360 GPU. If they exist that is a major item and will add levels of game realism that a system without PPU wont be able to match. I then posted what a PPU is and what it adds but some are still missing the point.

You also don't understand that any GPU can be used for 'physics math'. Just what exactly do you think 'physics' instructions are?

Besides, the GPU in consoles is already the bare minimum to increase profit - to take any computational power away from them would be stupid.

You dont understand that a GPU and PPU are 2 different things? You can do some big math on a GPU but they dont crank out physics like a PPU will. Of course only the new ATI 1000 series adds some PPU abilities. The NVIDIA card DO NOT!

 

[shinzwei]

I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
I don't believe Nintendo has released the specs for the Revolution yet, so you can't compare it to either the PS3 or X360 at this point. In fact, I don't think you can compare the PS3 to the X360 as it hasn't been finalized yet either.

I don't think that even with a bunch of great games that the Revolution will necessarily outsell either of the other two. The Gamecube has plenty of great games, but it hasn't exactly helped Nintendo all that much. Nintendo isn't as trendy and popular as Halo or Playstation, and if anything, it seems to me that the controller design has had the opposite affect Nintendo was aiming for. Most casual gamers I know are saying its retarded.

Nintendo and IBM are partnering for the CPU.

I don't think the GPUs in the X360 or PS3 are powerful enough to do good physics and good graphics at the same time, so it wouldn't make sense for them to even use the GPU for physics, but hey if they've figured out someway to do it then great. I don't care what chip does what, just so long as it gets done.

Nintendo did release the specs. Do a search function in the software/programing forums.

Sorry but those are only "leaked" specs, not official, which makes a world of difference.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

I agree with your analysis. This is why I might wind up getting the Revolution because in the end it all comes down to gameplay. An interactive controller like the Revolution might just be more fun than mashing buttons. I would enjoy a boxing, sword fighting, even fishing game if I were doing more of the movements. The people on G4 really say that the controller is something to get excited about and that the video doesnt do it justice.

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

I dont like the idea that Microsoft forgot about a mouse and keyboard. I also wanted HD or the ability to stream HD from my PC to the 360 which isnt known yet.

PS3 has problems in that they think the console will come with and without the Blue Ray drive because the overall cost of a blue ray is significant and is losing support. Dont expect a $300.00 PS3 with blue ray its already been estimated to cost $1000 with the blue ray drive. Sony will lose a ton of cash if thats true.

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

 

[darkswordsman17]

HDTV, I know you're excited about this, but think a little more rationally.

You're not going to be able to get both exceptional physics and exceptional graphics from the same GPU. Its just not going to happen at this point in time. The GPU will be used for graphics, which is what its made for.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

I agree with your analysis. This is why I might wind up getting the Revolution because in the end it all comes down to gameplay. An interactive controller like the Revolution might just be more fun than mashing buttons. I would enjoy a boxing, sword fighting, even fishing game if I were doing more of the movements. The people on G4 really say that the controller is something to get excited about and that the video doesnt do it justice.

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

I dont like the idea that Microsoft forgot about a mouse and keyboard. I also wanted HD or the ability to stream HD from my PC to the 360 which isnt known yet.

PS3 has problems in that they think the console will come with and without the Blue Ray drive because the overall cost of a blue ray is significant and is losing support. Dont expect a $300.00 PS3 with blue ray its already been estimated to cost $1000 with the blue ray drive. Sony will lose a ton of cash if thats true.

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

If you think the X2 has a PPU or that it's GPU can be used for physics your going to be disappointed.

 

[HDTVMan]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

I agree with your analysis. This is why I might wind up getting the Revolution because in the end it all comes down to gameplay. An interactive controller like the Revolution might just be more fun than mashing buttons. I would enjoy a boxing, sword fighting, even fishing game if I were doing more of the movements. The people on G4 really say that the controller is something to get excited about and that the video doesnt do it justice.

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

I dont like the idea that Microsoft forgot about a mouse and keyboard. I also wanted HD or the ability to stream HD from my PC to the 360 which isnt known yet.

PS3 has problems in that they think the console will come with and without the Blue Ray drive because the overall cost of a blue ray is significant and is losing support. Dont expect a $300.00 PS3 with blue ray its already been estimated to cost $1000 with the blue ray drive. Sony will lose a ton of cash if thats true.

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

If you think the X2 has a PPU or that it's GPU can be used for physics your going to be disappointed.

I have a feeling I will be dissapointed otherwise I would suspect they would be shouting from the rooftops about this ability. I would like to see what the ATI 1000 series can do and what PPU abilities they have added.

Soon I dont think we will be comparing GPU to GPU but PPU to PPU and other minor details. It seems both cards are approaching ungodly resolutions at good frame rates with great eye candy. Sure there can be more improvements visually and thats what PPU is going to bring to the table.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

I agree with your analysis. This is why I might wind up getting the Revolution because in the end it all comes down to gameplay. An interactive controller like the Revolution might just be more fun than mashing buttons. I would enjoy a boxing, sword fighting, even fishing game if I were doing more of the movements. The people on G4 really say that the controller is something to get excited about and that the video doesnt do it justice.

My point was in overall power the XBOX 360 because of the possibility of PPU could potentially have more power in the end over the PS3. A hidden gem.

I dont like the idea that Microsoft forgot about a mouse and keyboard. I also wanted HD or the ability to stream HD from my PC to the 360 which isnt known yet.

PS3 has problems in that they think the console will come with and without the Blue Ray drive because the overall cost of a blue ray is significant and is losing support. Dont expect a $300.00 PS3 with blue ray its already been estimated to cost $1000 with the blue ray drive. Sony will lose a ton of cash if thats true.

HD-DVD and BLUE Ray are already dead. HD-DIVX has already won.

Not sure where you're getting all this Blu-Ray stuff from. Sony is going to put a BD-ROM drive in every PS3. Why? Because they have to. They have to get them in people's homes so people buy Blu-Ray over HD-DVD so that Sony will win that war. They've already spent the money developing it, they just need to now get it in the market so that they can start making money off of it.

The reason why HD-DVD and BD players will cost so much is because they'll need powerful chips to decode them, something the PS3 already has in both Cell and the nVidia GPU. Not only that, but they'll put higher end DACs and other tech in those players that they can do without or through software on the PS3.

The X360 has USB ports. Its up to game developers to include mouse and keyboard support, so I don't see where the problem there is.

I think you're seeing things in the wrong way. Comparing total power, this phsyics-GPU development has no impact. The reason being is that its not like suddenly the GPU can do both of these things at the same time and that makes it more powerful. Either it'll be doing a lot of physics and some graphics or a lot of graphics and little physics. Its not like they put an extra chip in there to give it more power. Its they're going to give the same chip more work to do. Considering that they seem to not even be using the multiple cores to much effect so far, it would make more sense to spend the extra development time into making use of them I would think.

 

[Shenkoa]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Its the games... If the revolution comes up with 5-10 big hits in the next 2 years, it will outsell both consoles, or at least make more money than them .

Xbox 360 and PS3 will have the lead because of time so who knows.

 

[eelw]

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

The PS3 won't be as successful as the prior consoles with the outrageous price point that they are aiming at. Sony is delusional if they think that its 90+ million Playstation fanbase will pickup the PS3 at $500. Sony will take a huge dip in consoles sold this next gen solely on price alone.

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by: eelw

Originally posted by: shinzwei
I just think that the success of a gaming console comes down to the quality of its software. I could care less if the 360 graphics are 100x better than the Ps3. The Playstation is known for having high quality games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...They did it with the Ps1 and Ps2. Common sense would tell you that the Ps3 will be as successful as its predecessors.

The PS3 won't be as successful as the prior consoles with the outrageous price point that they are aiming at. Sony is delusional if they think that its 90+ million Playstation fanbase will pickup the PS3 at $500. Sony will take a huge dip in consoles sold this next gen solely on price alone.

Why are you even talking about price? No one knows how much the ps3 will cost, not even sony knows. There's no point in discussing pricing until sony comes out and says the ps3 will be $xxx.

 

[slash196]

I think for something to be a something else killer, it has to come out AFTERWARDS.

 

[tuteja1986]

i think which ever has exciting game will be the winner. Sony is more relying on title what made Sony Playstation. Title like Final Fantasy , Metal Gear Solid , Devil May Cry , Grand thrismo and Dragon Quest. XBOX is doing the same with halo but most of the game are new game franchise like lost oeddesy , blue dragon , Gear of War , Perfect Dark and others that looking very promising. People who still think XBOX 360 has only halo title worth playing are stupid F@#ks. Anyways i will be buying both and if you want to know what XBOX 360 has in store go here :http://www.gamespot.com/features/x052005/index.html

XBOX 360 is going to have loads of good title this time.

 

[rahzel]

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
i think which ever has exciting game will be the winner. Sony is more relying on title what made Sony Playstation. Title like Final Fantasy , Metal Gear Solid , Devil May Cry , Grand thrismo and Dragon Quest. XBOX is doing the same with halo but most of the game are new game franchise like lost oeddesy , blue dragon , Gear of War , Perfect Dark and others that looking very promising. People who still think XBOX 360 has only halo title worth playing are stupid F@#ks. Anyways i will be buying both and if you want to know what XBOX 360 has in store go here :http://www.gamespot.com/features/x052005/index.html

XBOX 360 is going to have loads of good title this time.

Totally agree. There are xbox and playstation fanboys, or there's the people that own one of the systems, but not the other. If you own one of the systems and you're more familiar with the systems titles, then that's probably the system you're going to lean towards.

I've only played Xbox like 3 times in my life, but i own a PS2. I love the Devil May Cry games and the Gran Turismo games so i'm leaning towards the PS3.

 

[Lonyo]

What's the point of this thread?
X1000 series = R520
XBox 360 GPU = R500
Different architecture, one is unified, the other isn't, and just because the X1000 series can do physics quite well may have no bearing on what the R500 can do.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: HDTVMan
http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/8887
After reading that article on how the ATI Radeon 1000 series contain Physics code while comparing it to the nvidia card as being lackluster in this area makes me wonder.

Could the chip in the xbox 360 contain physics code? If so and the performance numbers are corrent then there is no way nvidia can get to the drawing board to allow for physics to be implemented in the PS3 before launch. I know the multi core cpu of the PS3 can possibly help with physics however I dont believe its inherently designed with physics enhancements initially. Meaning it would have to compute it the same way a regular cpu would.

With the Nintendo Revolution having an ATI chip it makes me wonder how power the Revolution might just be. Have they announced the CPU yet? Man if they go with an AMD for the cpu then I would believe Nintendo got it right this time around.

yeah i think it was mentioned a while back that the SPE's in the Cell CPU arent really suited to physics calcualations, and that the meager cache each SPE has means they would have to access the main cpu cache regularly, incurring a latency hit. going on what ive heard the SPE's are going to be alot of use......basic media applications such as MP3 and AVI was probably their target for the SPE's

i could be wrong though

 

[dguy6789]

I think the Xbox360 may not kill the PS3, but it will definately take the console lead this time.

Think about it. Xbox 360 has every advantage the PS2 had over the Xbox this time.

It is comming out nearly a year earlier

It is faster

It is cheaper

When the PS3 does come out, Halo 3 launches

Possible Xbox 360 price drop when the PS3 launches

A very solid game lineup

Online support out of the box


All these things and more will make the Xbox360 dig in a very solid foothold in the console industry way before the PS3 is even out.

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
What's the point of this thread?
X1000 series = R520
XBox 360 GPU = R500
Different architecture, one is unified, the other isn't, and just because the X1000 series can do physics quite well may have no bearing on what the R500 can do.

Good point, the XBOX360 GPU was designed by a different engineering team than the ones who designed the R520. The XBOX360 GPU is based on the R600 and is also one full generation ahead of the R520. It may or may not have PPU. However, it wouldn't make much sense for ATI to make such a big deal about the R520 being able to do physics when their next gen part wont have this ability.

This is also one of the reasons I think the Xbox360 may end up outperforming the PS3 is the GPUs. The PS3 GPU is basically a warmed over G70 while the XB360s GPU is one generation ahead of what both ATI and nVidia currently have to offer.