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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
I've given up on caring about the debt. It is SO large it will never get back to 0 at this point. Both sides love to spend albeit on different things, but one side likes to lie about it.
Once money becomes this fake, all one can really do is watch out for themselves. Damn honesty, integrity, etc.

It's pure capitalism.

lol.

-John
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
Except, of course, individually we owe nothing. The nation, backed by the faith of the world economy that keeps buying its bonds at sub-inflation rates, not to mention the most absurdly overpowered military ever, owes a large but manageable amount. It would be better if that amount were lower relative to GDP, but it's not at a crisis state. The point being, comparisons to personal finance are fundamentally wrong. It's just a different thing.

We wouldn't want zero debt long-term, it would mean we're allocating resources poorly. If I'm building a road that's planned to last 40 years, it's much more fair to take out a loan that we'll pay off over those 40 years rather than pay it upfront. That way the people using the road are those paying for it. That also frees up current money for other more immediate affairs like disaster relief or so forth.
 
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WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
I am so proud :)

Our Government has left each and every one of us with $50,900 a piece in debt. Thanks guys and gals.
It is over $130K if you only count those Americans paying Federal Income taxes.

How do you like me now?
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
Except, of course, individually we owe nothing. The nation, backed by the faith of the world economy that keeps buying its bonds at sub-inflation rates, not to mention the most absurdly overpowered military ever, owes a large but manageable amount. It would be better if that amount were lower relative to GDP, but it's not at a crisis state. The point being, comparisons to personal finance are fundamentally wrong. It's just a different thing.

We wouldn't want zero debt long-term, it would mean we're allocating resources poorly. If I'm building a road that's planned to last 40 years, it's much more fair to take out a loan that we'll pay off over those 40 years rather than pay it upfront. That way the people using the road are those paying for it. That also frees up current money for other more immediate affairs like disaster relief or so forth.
I don't care how much money we owe, Berzerker60. I care that the amount of money we owe, is ridiculous, and it makes money fake.

Do you dispute this?

Money is fake, when it can be bought or sold, at artificial prices.

In today's world, Money is created at the whim of the Federal Reserve, etc. It is spent, by the congress, and the judiciary sees no problem with this.

It is a problem. It has no meaning any more. It is fake.

-John
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
It depends on your definition of "fake," obviously, but it's not fake by meaningful definitions. It's a very real social construct. It's as "real" or "fake" (take your pick) as the value of gold, the right to own property, definitions of words, the rule of law, race, or gender roles. Of course it has meaning, because everyone agrees it has meaning. We could go back to a barter system to be more "real," but that would make every transaction incredibly expensive, which is why we created artificial signifiers like "shiny metal stores value" in the first place.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
That's a good post, berzerker, but... would you rather be on the losing end of a "fake" or "real" argument, or the winning end?

I'm pretty sure we are sitting on the losing end of owing $135,000-$55,000 each. Individually.

-John
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
How can we be on the losing end? That only happens if the world stops believing in America's credit, which would take some sort of apocalyptic disaster in which case no bill collectors are coming for your share of the national debt. If America's economy dies, so does every other economy in the world. A funny part of globalization is that it's no longer an 'us vs. them' game, as evidenced by everyone praying the Euro Zone gets its shit together. It's a 'we're in this together, let's all grow' deal.
Anyway, as I said, no one owes anything individually. Usually analogies between business and government finance are crap, but here's one that sort of works: If Microsoft gets $2 trillion in debt tomorrow and goes out of business, Bill Gates doesn't owe $2 trillion divided by his ownership stakes. Everyone, especially the people that lent the money, are just shit outta luck.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
How can we be on the losing end? That only happens if the world stops believing in America's credit, which would take some sort of apocalyptic disaster in which case no bill collectors are coming for your share of the national debt. If America's economy dies, so does every other economy in the world. A funny part of globalization is that it's no longer an 'us vs. them' game, as evidenced by everyone praying the Euro Zone gets its shit together. It's a 'we're in this together, let's all grow' deal.
Anyway, as I said, no one owes anything individually. Usually analogies between business and government finance are crap, but here's one that sort of works: If Microsoft gets $2 trillion in debt tomorrow and goes out of business, Bill Gates doesn't owe $2 trillion divided by his ownership stakes. Everyone, especially the people that lent the money, are just shit outta luck.
This is happening, right now, Berzerker.

There are hundreds or thousands of people that look at America's Credit, and we were just downgraded.

We get to pay MORE INTEREST on the fake money.

People aren't stupid.

-John
 
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wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
1
0
if i had no idea about american history, and didnt know who anyone is, just by looking at that graph the first thing i would say is "who is this bush asshole"

looks to me like clinton had things going right, and bush flipp-flopped it and better yet, on his way out he lets the dogs loose. then this obama guy somehow reigned it in and leveled off the madness, heading back in the right direction.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,940
5
81
This is happening, right now, Berzerker.
There are hundreds or thousands of people that look at America's Credit, and we were just downgraded.
We get to pay MORE INTEREST on the fake money.
People aren't stupid.
-John
The federal government's credit rating was indeed downgraded, but interest rates have not gone up. A 2-year treasury note yields all of 0.23%; a 30-year note yields <3%. If you adjust for inflation, people are paying the government to hold their money.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
Don't tell me you don't owe anything...

because obviously your life is fake.

-John
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Does the debt even matter at this point? The US has been in deep debt since forever...so, I have no idea why people think its some type of revelation that the debt is getting deeper. We have had TWO republican presidents that served two terms each...the debt still went up..did anyone say anything about it? Is anyone saying anything now?

More importantly, why is it such a big fucking deal that the debt has went up by 6 trillion dollars? It would have only gone up under another President. It will continue to go up until we find a way to plant Money trees.


*eats popcorn*
 
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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
It matters very much, Shehatesme.

People that'd vote for Obama, have given up...

People that'd votte for Romney, hope we can assert ourselves as indiviuduals again.

-John
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
It matters very much, Shehatesme.

People that'd vote for Obama, have given up...

People that'd votte for Romney, hope we can assert ourselves as indiviuduals again.

-John
I havent given up on anything. I just havent heard a good reason to vote for Romney...Hes not my type of guy. Not voting for him and not sorry he isnt going to win.
 

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