$15/hour min wage - opposition op-ed on Slate.com

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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Do you know how I know that claim is bullshit? Because workers wages have stagnated and not kept up with inflation, despite increased productivity, increased profits, increased corporate savings, and yet companies have been doing what you claim they will be doing even more for decades!

Your claim is BS and not supported by any facts, sorry.


I'll do my best Paul Krugman impersonation "What inflation???".

Anyways, wages have not kept up with inflation because the rate of the unemployed has been way higher than has been reported by U3 numbers which mask the underlying effects of an increase of part-time labor force that has arisen via government acts like Obamacare. I.e. you have more McJobs being created and most of those are part-time jobs. Second increased profits does not translate into expansion until businesses see the economy firming up and government becoming less hostile toward the private sector. Increased corporate savings go hand, in hand with the wait and see approach of most businesses who stockpile cash to secure their future earnings and build up for future expansion when and if they believe it is possible and advantagous to do so in the future.

Furthermore the glut of workers in non-STEM related jobs in the labor market has played a large role in keeping wages down alongside other contributing factors. Then you have the fact that productivity gains have basically been pushed along with the use of and expansion of technology filtering through and permeating throughout the economy. However that expansion has plateaued in our economy as of late.

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-resea...h-information-technology-factor-productivity/
 
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Nov 25, 2013
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mfg2.jpg

And it will start trickling down any day now.


Really! Any day.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
The biggest risk I see in a sudden huge spike in minimum wage is motivating more R&D in automation in some of the tasks that we do have the technology to automate but where there hasn't yet been enough of an economic incentive to do so.

But I guess it was inevitable anyway...
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,086
8,952
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LOL So you don't even want to consider where those productivity gains came from because then it would burst your bubble.
LOL so you clearly lack reading comprehension or are just itching to insult someone over the internet.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
LOL so you clearly lack reading comprehension or are just itching to insult someone over the internet.

Answer the question. Where did the increase in manufacturing output come from again? How did workers end up producing more even as manufacturing shrank in the US?
 
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alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,380
448
126
Answer the question. Where did the increase in manufacturing output come from again? How did workers end up producing more even as manufacturing shrank in the US?

Is that a rhetorical question? We've gone from 70% of global durable goods production in the 1960s to 17% and declining every year.

As far as those manufacturing numbers, what counts as U.S. manufacturing these days is actually made overseas. You ship in 3-4 pieces that were made in China, some U.S. worker snaps 4 pieces together and "voila!" U.S. manufacturing. No it's a joke really. It was 99% built in China. NASA can't find the private subcontractor infrastructure to build a modern heavy lift rocket like it could in the 1960s and neither can U.S. "manufacturers", because it's long gone. So now we call assembly in the U.S. as manufacturing.

In the future, maybe we can call people who built the IKEA table they bought as someone engaged in manufacturing.
 
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1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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Is that a rhetorical question? We've gone from 70% of global durable goods production in the 1960s to 17% and declining every year.

As far as those manufacturing numbers, what counts as U.S. manufacturing these days is actually made overseas. You ship in 3-4 pieces that were made in China, some U.S. worker snaps 4 pieces together and "voila!" U.S. manufacturing. No it's a joke really. It was 99% built in China. NASA can't find the private subcontractor infrastructure to build a modern heavy lift rocket like it could in the 1960s and neither can U.S. "manufacturers", because it's long gone. So now we call assembly in the U.S. as manufacturing.

In the future, maybe we can call people who built the IKEA table they bought as someone engaged in manufacturing.

Exactly,

made in the USA is a very abused and maligned term that is being abused by the marketing departments of many companies,

even though the FTC is trying to do something about it, it appears to be a losing battle.

http://consumerist.com/2013/12/11/how-american-must-a-product-be-to-be-labeled-made-in-the-usa/

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/lo...cle_0cdd9c17-b706-5661-b00a-7ce01e7aa515.html



unless you fix the real reason that has Americans looking at Mcdonalds as a career instead of a transitionary path to something better,

raising the minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,668
54,654
136
I'll do my best Paul Krugman impersonation "What inflation???".

Anyways, wages have not kept up with inflation because the rate of the unemployed has been way higher than has been reported by U3 numbers which mask the underlying effects of an increase of part-time labor force that has arisen via government acts like Obamacare. I.e. you have more McJobs being created and most of those are part-time jobs. Second increased profits does not translate into expansion until businesses see the economy firming up and government becoming less hostile toward the private sector. Increased corporate savings go hand, in hand with the wait and see approach of most businesses who stockpile cash to secure their future earnings and build up for future expansion when and if they believe it is possible and advantagous to do so in the future.

Furthermore the glut of workers in non-STEM related jobs in the labor market has played a large role in keeping wages down alongside other contributing factors. Then you have the fact that productivity gains have basically been pushed along with the use of and expansion of technology filtering through and permeating throughout the economy. However that expansion has plateaued in our economy as of late.

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-resea...h-information-technology-factor-productivity/

Please show me the increase in the part time labor force since the ACA went into effect?

I would also be interested to see how you would show job growth as related to businesses thinking that government wasn't 'hostile' to the private sector anymore.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
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Republican logic. Don't try to understand it, just understand the sort of mind that it comes from. Note the creative use of class warfare that a minimum wage increase would somehow benefit the rich too, so we shouldn't do it.

Reminds me of some tea party "strategist" speaking on the news about wage increases were bad because the recipients would then pay more taxes. Really is the goal to starve the beast so extreme that if you earn $80 more per week and $20-30 go to taxes its not worth taking the extra $80?

You'll just have to accept this I saw the guy month's ago. I can't find the clip.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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I think we need a plan to raise the minimum wage to $15 hour, but probably not all at once. The economy could probably easily support a raise to $10 hour now and then raise it higher a little at a time in 4 increments of say $1.25 every year or two.
 

wjb663

Junior Member
Sep 21, 2009
13
0
66
The biggest risk I see in a sudden huge spike in minimum wage is motivating more R&D in automation in some of the tasks that we do have the technology to automate but where there hasn't yet been enough of an economic incentive to do so.

But I guess it was inevitable anyway...

^This^

Also, I'd like to hear from more business owners.

I consider myself an uneducated person, but wouldn't the size of the business affect how it "handles" any change in local, national, or global economies?
 

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
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I think that's the key takeaway here.

Also, I kind of expect fast food places to have mostly robots and between zero and one employee within the next 10-20 years no matter what happens to the minimum wage.
If minimum wage hit $15 soon you would see a massive push even more than now to replace their jobs with robots.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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It could come from any number of things or combination of things.

In no particular order:

High prices Agreed
Reduction in quality agreed but a bad effect imo
Reduction in labor (hours worked or personnel) Wouldn't this effectively neutralize the increase in wage?
Increase in employee output (harder working employees, more efficient employees, reduction in bad customer service/increase in good customer service) If this could be done why wouldn't for profit institutions already be doing this? Furthermore, we are talking about unskilled labor for the most part, how much more efficient do you honestly think they are going to get?
Increase in consumer demand To a degree but remember, it costs far more than $1 to pay an employee $1
And lastly, simply reducing the percentage of profit. Not going to happen, at least not to any significant degree

I'm sure there are more but you should get the point.

Oh I do get the point, the bolded is mine. I am curious if you get the point I am after. Again, I am all for raising the minimum wage to $20 an hour albeit for my own selfish reasons.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,668
54,654
136
Obama knows full well the damage his ACA does to the economy. Its "go into effect" dates keep getting delayed and pushed back, year after year, but the consequences of the 30 hour work week rule are perfectly clear to all but the most deluded.

This is 100% bullshit. All of the important parts of the ACA have been in effect now for almost a year and a half. All of them. Who duped you into thinking that the employer mandate is the 'go in effect' date for the ACA?


Ahhh, the good old Forbes right wing op-ed. I assume this is who duped you. As an aside, the number of times I've seen people duped by Forbes op-eds on here is amazing. Why do you guys keep reading these clowns when it is abundantly clear they have lied to you over and over again? Don't you get tired of it?

Now to deal more specifically with this guy's bullshit. The way he's trying to trick you here is by using arbitrary time periods and weasely definitions.

1. He claims that's due to the ACA's one year 'look back' window, but that claim doesn't stand up to rational scrutiny. Full time people on the books are full time people on the books regardless of when you hired them. There is no reason to arbitrarily limit it to specific time periods.

2. He is using household survey numbers while are super noisy. The benchmark for statistical significance is 400,000 jobs in each month.

3. He's tying to use all part time workers instead of part time for economic reasons, which would be what you would want to look at to see if people were actually being forced into part time work.

He does all these things because if he didn't, he wouldn't have a claim left.

Really though, all that's needed to show this guy is wrong is one graph, but at least in this case he was wrong for one reason that wasn't his fault, he simply didn't know what the future would hold. If his hypothesis were correct we should have seen a continued increase in part time jobs vs. full time jobs as time gets closer to the employer mandate going into effect. Instead, we get this:

fredgraph.png


Part time jobs are plummeting, just when his hypothesis says they shouldn't be.

Finally, I also truly enjoyed this:
The report acknowledges that there has been “a statistically significant increase’ in involuntary part time work in 2014 and that involuntary part time work is what “should be affected if employers are reducing workers hours to avoid employer mandate penalties.” Given these concessions, Obamacare’s impact on involuntary part time work would seem difficult to ignore, although apparently not impossible.

The report attempts to explain away this increase by noting that part time employment between 30 and 35 hours per week has also increased suggesting that the overall increase is “most likely due” to the “severity and depth of the Great Recession.” Translation: It’s George Bush’s fault.

If what he were saying was true you wouldn't see part time employment increase equally above and below the cutoff, as that is precisely the line of demarcation he claims employers are trying to avoid to begin with. That conclusion is obvious and inescapable.

He admits his own logic is wrong but then plows on as if that's not important. The snark he tries to use while admitting his own argument is bullshit is pretty funny.

So seriously, don't settle for being duped by these clowns anymore.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,367
16,746
136
Oh I do get the point, the bolded is mine. I am curious if you get the point I am after. Again, I am all for raising the minimum wage to $20 an hour albeit for my own selfish reasons.

No, I don't see your point.

As to your question "If this could be done why wouldn't for profit institutions already be doing this? Furthermore, we are talking about unskilled labor for the most part, how much more efficient do you honestly think they are going to get?" and this is especially true of low wage workers, if you increase an employees pay they typically become better employees. Higher pay also results in higher employee job satisfaction and lower turn over which in turn also reduces costs to the employer.

Again, any combination of those things can offset higher labor costs. Considering that history has shown us the past minimum wage increases did not result in higher inflation and it did not result in a meaningful increase in unemployment, one can conclude that employers used other tactics besides just raising prices and reducing labor.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,455
9,677
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This is 100% bullshit. All of the important parts of the ACA have been in effect now for almost a year and a half. All of them. Who duped you into thinking that the employer mandate is the 'go in effect' date for the ACA?

In terms of part time jobs, the 30 hour work week "employer mandate" is all that matters.
 
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umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Obama knows full well the damage his ACA does to the economy. Its "go into effect" dates keep getting delayed and pushed back, year after year, but the consequences of the 30 hour work week rule are perfectly clear to all but the most deluded.

Obamacare Is Shifting Workers Into Part-Time Jobs

Wow!... Just WOW!

Talk about deluded!

I have been in the work force since I was 16 in the 80's and worked in restaurants exclusively back there and even then ALL owners employed the 30 hour work week to avoid paying benefits.

When I went back to college in 2002 I took another part time job in a fine dining restaurant and yep, 95% of the staff were all 30 hour workers, the only people getting 40 hours were the kitchen, dining room, and general manager. Sheesh. Yep, it's all Obama and ACAs fault...
 
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nexus5rocks

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
413
84
101
Raising the minimum wage to $15 would be a mere return to where this country once was back in my parent's day. When they repeat stories of how you could "pump gas and support a family".

Wages have not kept pace with the cost of living, not even remotely. Why should we fear restoring some balance to the equation, why should we fear fewer people on food stamps and welfare?

Raising wages is a burden... but so are our taxes. In the end the higher wage is the better tax.

Why stop at $15/hr? I say raise it to $100/hr. Then everyone will be rich.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,455
9,677
136
Part time jobs are plummeting, just when his hypothesis says they shouldn't be.

Thank you eskimospy, for fully addressing it.

Your numbers appear to be quite solid, while I've none in my corner. Until I find a better source, backed by numbers, I will surrender this position. If anyone here in P&N would like to take up the argument, I welcome you to try...

You should know that this "part time employment" argument is frequented among right wing circles. Perhaps that is why DucatiMonster696 spoke of it, and why I tried to back it up. It seems obvious, doesn't it? Add additional costs to the 30 hour work week, and employers will cut those employees in favor of part time. But the numbers don't pan out? I'd love to know how it turned out that way.

Until someone gives a better opposing explanation than you gave us, this is the last you'll hear of it from me... and next time I see it mentioned I will challenge them to support the claim.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,367
16,746
136
Thank you eskimospy, for fully addressing it.

Your numbers appear to be quite solid, while I've none in my corner. Until I find a better source, backed by numbers, I will surrender this position. If anyone here in P&N would like to take up the argument, I welcome you to try...

You should know that this "part time employment" argument is frequented among right wing circles. Perhaps that is why DucatiMonster696 spoke of it, and why I tried to back it up. It seems obvious, doesn't it? Add additional costs to the 30 hour work week, and employers will cut those employees in favor of part time. But the numbers don't pan out? I'd love to know how it turned out that way.

Until someone gives a better opposing explanation than you gave us, this is the last you'll hear of it from me... and next time I see it mentioned I will challenge them to support the claim.

Whoa! Respect plus 1! You now have 1 respect point:p