$15/hour min wage - opposition op-ed on Slate.com

[ivwshane]

Yes, because wages in one city which has a high relative cost of living is clearly applicable to the rest of the country.

If I showed you a study of two similar cities, geographically close to each other where one raised minimum wage and the other didn't and no decernable difference was observed between the two, would you continue with your claim?

 

[ivwshane]

$15 min wage = 1/3 of the minimum wage workforce instantly eliminated and on welfare. And an influx of about 2-5 million more illegal immigrant jobs. Sounds like a winning plan that just enough dumbed down idiots would vote for.

Speaking of idiots, have you looked in the mirror lately?

 

[Atreus21]

If I showed you a study of two similar cities, geographically close to each other where one raised minimum wage and the other didn't and no discernible difference was observed between the two, would you continue with your claim?

Yes, I probably would, because you're still comparing similar situations. If people really think a $15 minimum wage is the same in Jackson, MS as it is Seattle, they're silly.

EDIT: And incidentally, Seattle's $15 minimum wage has only been in force since April 1 of this year. Whether it succeeds or fails, it's a bit early to claim.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I may be wrong but I believe ivwshane is about to drop a knowledge bomb.

 

[Atreus21]

I may be wrong but I believe ivwshane is about to drop a knowledge bomb.

Unless he can find a way to refute the idea of differing costs of living...

 

[smackababy]

Unless he can find a way to refute the idea of differing costs of living...

Or, refute the idea that "it has worked for 3 weeks, therefore it is great forever" is beyond stupid.

We don't have long term studies of actual, meaningful increases in minimum wages to even compare.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Let me clarify my previous statement. I remember seeing something to that regard on TV some time ago.

 

[Darwin333]

Companies eat costs all the time, it's called the cost of doing business. High labor standards in the US is the cost of doing business. Businesses will pass on some of the increased costs, not 100%.

The hell they won't. I am an employer and not only would I pass on the entirety of the additional cost to my customers but I base my profit on a set percentage of the total cost of the project. To compound the issue, in my industry at least, we have very high insurance and overhead costs. Every dollar I actually pay a man costs me much closer to $3. So simple math says that I will also make more profit in actual dollars, not less. It won't create anymore competitiveness in any market that I can think of so why would anyone say that they would eat the costs?

Now if only MY costs go up, then I have to decide if I am willing to eat a portion of it so I can remain competitive but that isn't what we're talking about.

The real question is how would all other wages scale up, especially in our current environment.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

The hell they won't. I am an employer and not only would I pass on the entirety of the additional cost to my customers but I base my profit on a set percentage of the total cost of the project. To compound the issue, in my industry at least, we have very high insurance and overhead costs. Every dollar I actually pay a man costs me much closer to $3. So simple math says that I will also make more profit in actual dollars, not less. It won't create anymore competitiveness in any market that I can think of so why would anyone say that they would eat the costs?

Now if only MY costs go up, then I have to decide if I am willing to eat a portion of it so I can remain competitive but that isn't what we're talking about.

The real question is how would all other wages scale up, especially in our current environment.

Something else to consider that might further support your point is that another way firms "eat"/deal with artificial costs imposed upon them by government is to eliminate jobs, reduce hours of workers, eliminate full time positions, which also results in a reduction in benefits employers have to pay out, employ/deploy technology to replace workers when possible, reduce the rate of raises and bonuses handed out versus meaningless promotions, outsource jobs, etc where profit margins are razor thin but volume is used to create profits.

Along with reducing the quantity and quality of goods and services so as to not directly raise prices but still cut costs in a stealthy way. So that "Big Mac" won't be as "Big" in comparison to what you could get in the past for the same price. All of these methods and more would be enacted before actual direct price hikes occur. Especially in price sensitive industries which depend on volume sales to make up for razor thin profit margins.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, I probably would, because you're still comparing similar situations. If people really think a $15 minimum wage is the same in Jackson, MS as it is Seattle, they're silly.

EDIT: And incidentally, Seattle's $15 minimum wage has only been in force since April 1 of this year. Whether it succeeds or fails, it's a bit early to claim.

Great!


Here is an article talking about the studies.

http://kypolicy.org/research-says-minimum-wage-increases/

Here is the actual study I'm referring to:

http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

Here is a follow up to that study that used more generalized data:

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

 

[ivwshane]

Something else to consider that might further support your point is that another way firms "eat"/deal with artificial costs imposed upon them by government is to eliminate jobs, reduce hours of workers, eliminate full time positions, which also results in a reduction in benefits employers have to pay out, employ/deploy technology to replace workers when possible, reduce the rate of raises and bonuses handed out versus meaningless promotions, outsource jobs, etc where profit margins are razor thin but volume is used to create profits.

Along with reducing the quantity and quality of goods and services so as to not directly raise prices but still cut costs in a stealthy way. So that "Big Mac" won't be as "Big" in comparison to what you could get in the past for the same price. All of these methods and more would be enacted before actual direct price hikes occur. Especially in price sensitive industries which depend on volume sales to make up for razor thin profit margins.

Companies are already doing that, so your argument is that raising the minimum wage will cause companies to continue doing what they are already doing?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The hell they won't. I am an employer and not only would I pass on the entirety of the additional cost to my customers but I base my profit on a set percentage of the total cost of the project. To compound the issue, in my industry at least, we have very high insurance and overhead costs. Every dollar I actually pay a man costs me much closer to $3. So simple math says that I will also make more profit in actual dollars, not less. It won't create anymore competitiveness in any market that I can think of so why would anyone say that they would eat the costs?

Now if only MY costs go up, then I have to decide if I am willing to eat a portion of it so I can remain competitive but that isn't what we're talking about.

The real question is how would all other wages scale up, especially in our current environment.

Do you pay anyone under or close to 22-30k per year?

 

[ivwshane]

The hell they won't. I am an employer and not only would I pass on the entirety of the additional cost to my customers but I base my profit on a set percentage of the total cost of the project. To compound the issue, in my industry at least, we have very high insurance and overhead costs. Every dollar I actually pay a man costs me much closer to $3. So simple math says that I will also make more profit in actual dollars, not less. It won't create anymore competitiveness in any market that I can think of so why would anyone say that they would eat the costs?

Now if only MY costs go up, then I have to decide if I am willing to eat a portion of it so I can remain competitive but that isn't what we're talking about.

The real question is how would all other wages scale up, especially in our current environment.

We've had several minimum wage raises throught the years, what did you do then? If you would just raise prices why aren't you raising prices now? Seems like a poor business decision unless there are other factors you aren't telling us about that persuade you to keep your prices where they are.

 

[Linux23]

Slightly off topic......if trickle down works by putting more money in people/employers pockets why does the concept of trickle up fail?

great question.

 

[Cozarkian]

We've had several minimum wage raises throught the years, what did you do then? If you would just raise prices why aren't you raising prices now? Seems like a poor business decision unless there are other factors you aren't telling us about that persuade you to keep your prices where they are.

Because if he raises prices now his competitors will be undercutting him in price and he will lose business. If minimum wage increases it also increases for his competitors and they will also raise their prices. Thus, in his particular industry, he will be able to pass the costs onto the consumers.

 

[smackababy]

We've had several minimum wage raises throught the years, what did you do then? If you would just raise prices why aren't you raising prices now? Seems like a poor business decision unless there are other factors you aren't telling us about that persuade you to keep your prices where they are.

Have we now? Have those increases been actually meaningful? Have they double what most employers are paying?

 

[Atreus21]

Great!


Here is an article talking about the studies.

http://kypolicy.org/research-says-minimum-wage-increases/

Here is the actual study I'm referring to:

http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

Here is a follow up to that study that used more generalized data:

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

I read the entirety of the first link.

I have a counterpoint:

 

[fskimospy]

Wait, you didn't want to compare two cities in the U.S. because they were different but now you're willing to compare many countries?

 

[Zorkorist]

All that raising the minimum wage does is to raise prices, across the board.

The people on minimum wages, don't need prices to go up.

-John

 

[Darwin333]

Do you pay anyone under or close to 22-30k per year?

I start laborers off at $10/hour, if they have any sort of skill whatsoever (even in different fields) I'll bump em up a few bucks to start.

I get at least a few people every day I'm in the field who are asking me for a job and it's rather shitty work. I get illegals on the jobsite darn near every day begging to do the work for $50 a day cash.

Personally, I don't care if the minimum wage is $20. I will, without question, make more money and all of my large purchases are already paid for. I can guarantee that people like my foreman's pay will not scale up equally, at least not for quite a while.

 

[ivwshane]

I read the entirety of the first link.

I have a counterpoint:

Lol! Surely you can do better than that.



Of all the studies I've read including meta studies, I believe at most, unemployment rose by .03% (it might have been 3%) for teenagers and that was the max, the average study saw no statistical difference. Even your own link shows about a max of 4% difference and if we applied that to US stats we'd be looking at around 37,000 teenagers out of work. Sounds like a no brainier to me.

 

[ivwshane]

All that raising the minimum wage does is to raise prices, across the board.

The people on minimum wages, don't need prices to go up.

-John

No it doesn't.

 

[Zorkorist]

37,000 teenagers out of work?

This is the minimum wage to you?

lol.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

-John

 

[Darwin333]

We've had several minimum wage raises throught the years, what did you do then? If you would just raise prices why aren't you raising prices now? Seems like a poor business decision unless there are other factors you aren't telling us about that persuade you to keep your prices where they are.

Because the costs to produce/service/whatever haven't gone up industry wide....