15 answers to creationist bullsh!t acusations

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Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
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I find it funny and sad the number of you guys who post 'LOL' ROFL' 'THIS IS GREAT' in response to this graph :Text. You have nothing to say, so you jump on the bandwagon that you think is cool because someone else did it. What does that graph prove?

It proves that they teach evolution in college.
No it doesn't. Unless you're majoring in a related field, chances are you will never touch upon the subject in college - which means the vast majority of people won't. What that graph more likely shows is that the longer people have had an education and the more people have been taught to truly analyze something, the less likely people are to believe something as stupid as the earth being 6000 years old.
 

Ramsnake

Senior member
Apr 12, 2002
629
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Originally posted by: LordMaul
hahaha.....wanted to point that out...but avoided it.....

What are you laughing at, chickenshit? Why did you avoid it? Because you're a evolutionist groupie gathering in a thread chock full of numbheaded "Me Too"s bashing anything they can to make themselves feel better, while ganging up on the 2-3 who disagree with them and either picking your posts apart or suddenly turning off any sort of common interpretation of posts or humor and twisting it into something serious and stabbing you in the back?

Go back to the mirror, Pimple Picker. We don't need another "debate" thread.


watch ur mouth ... no wonder the stench of a sewer is so strong now....i never insulted u, i didnt point that out because there is always a possibility of u just kidding....just look at urself , losing ur composure over such a meaningless thing.

 

Ramsnake

Senior member
Apr 12, 2002
629
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Originally posted by: Optimus
Ramsnake:

Exactly - you are throwing your already present dislike of christianity on the table. Fine - but where does the right to insult the Christians here come into play?


if im not mistaken...have u resorted to sofistry and lying?

lemme quote my earlier post


...cannot be convinced is the world and life was created by any of the ways described by christianity, islam, buddhism, hinduism, taoism and various other religions. We talk with reference to christianity here in this thread because most of the guys on this forum are american and live in a nation predominently filled with christians ( practising and non-practising types). This has nothing to do with exclusively targeting christian beliefs instead it is about not believing what was preached a few thousand years back when civilization was not advanced.

do u not understand english....i clearly state above this has nothing to do with christianity, but instead it is against theories that were formed ages ago ....and also i explain why christianity is used as a reference in this discussion.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
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Sorry you are going to have to explain that a little bit, because I have no idea where you are going with it. It appears that you think adaption requires some sort of new technology. That is not the case at all. Thinking has adapted just as everything else has, and it wasn't just because of some fancy invention.


In the case of science, yes, you do need fancy tools to understand the world better. Thinking has often adapted because of technology. Such was the case with the telescope for example.


I'm a religious man who believes God created the world in six days. However, I dont feel the need to prove it to anyone, especially those who are fighting against such beliefs. Did you ever wonder why the Evolutionists always feel the need to prove how correct they are? I'm happy with my beliefs, it works for me.

Evolutionists are like other scientists, they only seek the truth. Unfortunately for them, what they know to be true is very often contradicted by what the churches/religious institutions say.


I'm trying to do the following:

1) Point out that not all Christians match the "Bible-thumping pure-creationist" strawman being used here to tear down all Christians,
2) Point out that believing in evolution (as the method to creation) is not absurd, invalidated, or argued against in that article, so the conclusions some reached here that "anyone who believes God created stuff = stupid head" is not a valid conclusion.

1. And yet, that article is NOT about the pure-creationist bible thumbers, but against the "intelligent design" proponents
2. If you are the kind of christian I think you are, they I think your kind is shrewd, not stupid. The core belifs are ever so conviniently placed where they could hardly be disproved, and should the happen to be disproved, they are no longer core beliefs.



 

LordMaul

Lifer
Nov 16, 2000
15,168
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Originally posted by: Ramsnake
Originally posted by: LordMaul
hahaha.....wanted to point that out...but avoided it.....

What are you laughing at, chickenshit? Why did you avoid it? Because you're a evolutionist groupie gathering in a thread chock full of numbheaded "Me Too"s bashing anything they can to make themselves feel better, while ganging up on the 2-3 who disagree with them and either picking your posts apart or suddenly turning off any sort of common interpretation of posts or humor and twisting it into something serious and stabbing you in the back?

Go back to the mirror, Pimple Picker. We don't need another "debate" thread.


watch ur mouth ... no wonder the stench of a sewer is so strong now....i never insulted u, i didnt point that out because there is always a possibility of u just kidding....just look at urself , losing ur composure over such a meaningless thing.

*deciphers message*

Oh well. The message was directed towards just about everyone.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
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Originally posted by: The_Wildcard
Hmm, well my take on all of it is this.

I remember a couple of years ago talking to a religious friend about this and he said, "you know how all the scientists talk about the big bang theory. Well, did you ever think it was too coicendtial that everything worked out so nicely? Somebody or something must have caused the big bang."

AND up until that point, I was comfortable and satisfied with the theory of evolution, big bang, etc, etc. I have to admit that his point sorta stumped me and forced me to think a little bit more.

BTW, hmmm, alien seed theory is possible, but the men in black suits, parked in a black crown victoria in front of my house, would have me say otherwise, lol.

I'm not sure if you are in high school, college, or neither, but if you are in academics try to get into an intro to philosophy course. I've never thought of things the same way. The argument you listed is one of MANY (and most instructors will balance out arguments that support the existence of a supreme being with ones that don't). You seem to have some natural curiosity in the subject as I did, so you would probably really enjoy the class.

Fun stuff, but I swear at times I thought my brain was going to explode from trying to analyze it all. :D

It really opened my mind to the possibilities (on both sides), I must say.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
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Marty:
1. And yet, that article is NOT about the pure-creationist bible thumbers, but against the "intelligent design" proponents
GEEZ, man - did you not even READ your own link???
1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.
3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.
5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.
6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.
8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance.
9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.
10. Mutations are essential to evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features.
11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.
12. Nobody has ever seen a new species evolve.
13. Evolutionists cannot point to any transitional fossils--creatures that are half reptile and half bird, for instance.
14. Living things have fantastically intricate features--at the anatomical, cellular and molecular levels--that could not function if they were any less complex or sophisticated. The only prudent conclusion is that they are the products of intelligent design, not evolution.
15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution.
Those are the 15 arguments the author attempts to refute in the article. Not ONE of those arguments or refutations has anything to do with someone who believes in evolution, yet believes God started the process with the Big Bang. The author touches on it briefly with an admission that the pre-evolution cause may be aliens. How does this refute my beliefs in any tiny way????
2. If you are the kind of christian I think you are, they I think your kind is shrewd, not stupid. The core belifs are ever so conviniently placed where they could hardly be disproved, and should the happen to be disproved, they are no longer core beliefs.
Listen to me, bigot - you know nothing about me or my beliefs. And if you paid attention to this thread (your own damn trolling thread) you'd have seen where I addressed that same question - which was posed in a very civilized way by Skoorb. Unlike your insulting accusation fo me having some intentional and shrewd dilusion or mental illness.

I've had enough of you, Marty - you are a religion bigot, plain and simple, and I'm not getting into this with you anymore.

I will continue to address anyone else in this thread who shows a tiny modicum of respect for differing viewpoints and beliefs.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
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GEEZ, man - did you not even READ your own link???

yes I did:

"Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms."


This article is not against YOUR type, but intelligent design proponents who try to disprove evolution and are far more common than literal creationists (whos ideas are so absurd articles against them would be redundant). If you don't doubt evolution, why where you so defensive?

How does this refute my beliefs in any tiny way????

I don't remember the article ever saying there was no god. It says that you can't attack evolution to try and prove there is one.


Listen to me, bigot - you know nothing about me or my beliefs. And if you paid attention to this thread (your own damn trolling thread) you'd have seen where I addressed that same question - which was posed in a very civilized way by Skoorb. Unlike your insulting accusation fo me having some intentional and shrewd dilusion or mental illness.

1. yes, that's why there was a big IF in front, right? I don't know what type of christian you are, so I am only left to speculate.
2. I enver said it was intentional, but its shrewd nevertheless. Any belief which is centred around the unknown (someone saying everything's a dream, or a computer simulation etc) is shrewed. If you look at the meaning of shrewd, you would find it means a SMART, CUNNING, KEEN etc.

I've had enough of you, Marty

Goodbye.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
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Originally posted by: BigJohnKC
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did you ever wonder why the Evolutionists always feel the need to prove how correct they are?
Yeah right - when was the last time an evolutionist came to your door inviting you to spend some time with the congregation in their lab?!
Well, Im not Christian, so those anti-christian shots wont work with me. ;)
I may not be seeing them coming to my door, but I do see them starting threads to prove their way of thinking. :)

On the contrary, most religion threads started here are started by non-christians wanting an answer to a specific religion question (which then turn into Christianity/religion bashing threads), or pure malicious religion-bashing threads like this one that start out that way and end up that way as well. I can't even remember the last thread that was started by a christian here...
That's precisely what I meant. :)
 

wQuay

Senior member
Nov 19, 2000
712
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Bah, not again. That editorial is just a simplistic rehash of every argument and counter-argument. Any dogmatic belief about the origin of life is based on faith, not scientific evidence. That's true for atheists/agnostics as well as Christians.
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
23,686
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Originally posted by: linuxboy
The man or woman who briefly brushes against science and philosophy often vehemently protest that God does not exist and outcry the stupidity of religion. And the few who deepen in their understanding of either one, or both are inclined to believe the opposite.


Cheers ! :)

science and philosophy rarely have anything to do with each other and I have studied science for the vast majority of my life and I have been introduced to philosphy. Although I am not vehemnt about it, I do believe the notion of god is false.

As any good debater can tell you the burden of proof lies on the person making the positive affirmation. Since people make the statement there is a god, it is their burden to proove it not ours to disprove it.


EDIT: For grammer and spelling
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
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Alot of the arguments in the article use the same vagueness as creationists, so its hardly anything earth shattering.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,755
6,766
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Ameesh, from the scientific point of view, it is up to the postulator to prove his case, but, as I said, God doesn't work that way. Take a tree, for example. You could probably write a million books on trees, explain their workings in minute detail, but that will never ever give you the experience of seeing one, of feeling its beauty, of being in its shade. I could say I don't believe in an Ameesh. I have never seen an Ameesh. I find only vague references to the existance of an Ameesh. Do you believe in Ameesh. Maybe something about your being makes you a believer. It's the same with God. If you wnat to believe in God you have to be Him or some aspect of him. You can do that only by loving. Then you will know. No?
 

Ramsnake

Senior member
Apr 12, 2002
629
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Originally posted by: Ameesh
Originally posted by: linuxboy
The man or woman who briefly brushes against science and philosophy often vehemently protest that God does not exist and outcry the stupidity of religion. And the few who deepen in their understanding of either one, or both are inclined to believe the opposite.


Cheers ! :)

science and philosophy rarely have anything to do with each other and I have studied science for the vast majority of my life and I have been introduced to philosphy. Although I am not vehemnt about it, I do believe the notion of god is false.

As any good debater can tell you the burden of proof lies on the person making the positive affirmation. Since people make the statement there is a god, it is their burden to proove it not ours to disprove it.


EDIT: For grammer and spelling


yeah , I too believe the notion of god as it is there today is false. So it is hard to give credibility to something that is coming from such a faulty background .

 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
3,211
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HEHE, I think some of you stubborn "creation scientists" are justifying your beliefs because you all failed your REAL science class.


 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
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Your thread is misnamed.

Please rephrase:

"15 bullsh!t answers to creationist bullsh!t acusations"

Thanks.

I agree -- most of the accusations are bad. They're also not common among intellectual creationists, and those creationists who actually think will respond the exact same way in many cases against those who are giving the creationist position a bad name.

It's kind of like the evolutionists I meet who support Lamarckism. Should I post an answer to evolutionist bullsh!t arguments and defeat lamarck's theory that giraffes grew longer necks because they stretched them out over millions of years? No.

And the valid accusations were confined to a narrow interpretation, strung out of context, overdeveloped into a house of cards, scarecrowed, then shattered. Great job. Kudos! Wonderful find! Be sure to post in hot deals, because it is obvious that YOU... have found the truth. For example, against the proteins arising by chance, a partial answer was: "Quite the opposite: natural selection, the principal known mechanism of evolution, harnesses nonrandom change by preserving 'desirable' (adaptive) features and eliminating 'undesirable' (nonadaptive) ones. " But natural selection doesn't have a creative mechanism -- only an adaptive one. No, on the contrary, many evolutionists have personified "Natural Selection" to perform the evolutionary wizardry required to shape their belief around their view of science. And by evolutionists, I'm talking about those who believe that the cosmos either produced itself by natural/quantum causes, or that the cosmos has always existed. I'm not talking about those who believe that the reason we have different kinds of dogs is due to microevolutionary processes -- creationists and evolutionists alike concur with this, but I do appreciate the clarification pointed out in the article. Not that a creationist wouldn't tell you the same thing, but it's a plus.

Give yourself a pat on the back. Oh... by the way... what in that entire article was either 1) new, or 2) profound?

Call me crazy, but if you are *not* a proponent of intelligent design, then you must maintain the position that all your "intelligence" is a mere byproduct of random, unintelligent, and unguided processes with Natural Selection as "yo daddy." If such intelligence is the result of such a chaotic jumble, whence comes its significance? If intelligence comes from unintelligence, why the heck should we require teachers to have any sort of education? Shoot, why have education at all? Just leave our kids at the zoo with ape-brother...

George, George, George of the Jungle...

Watch out for that tree!

<SLAM!>
 

Pennstate

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
3,211
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I am a creationist and a scientist. The lunatics are the "creation scientists". Creationism and Evolution are apples and oranges. IMO, Creationism is symbolic, evolution is the actual physical process. You really think God wanted to included DNA Replication in the Bible?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: Pennstate
I am a creationist and a scientist. The lunatics are the "creation scientists". Creationism and Evolution are apples and oranges. IMO, Creationism is symbolic, evolution is the actual physical process. You really think God wanted to included DNA Replication in the Bible?


Including DNA in the bible would have made it much harder to read.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
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Even harder to read?? Not. Think harder to orate - considering most of the Bible was transferred via oral tradition before it was ever recorded.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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I believe in creation science - that is, roughly what most scientists believe, integrated with the belief that chance, probability and anthropic principles aren't likely to create what we see today - IOW - it was spurred on by GOD. My point here is, the arguments listed here against evolution that the author claims to have been made are either made by ignorant people, not made at all, or grossly distorted.

Here are your 15 claims:

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law. - That's never been a claim that a person who respects science will make. The observations clearly point to evolution as the only plausible theory. I'm not about to claim the earth is 6000 years old. That would be rediculous.

2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest. - Not a claim I would make either. SOTF clearly exists - we see it today. As to the mechanism and the clearly defined criteria for how it creates new species, thats something else all together.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created. - Again, not a claim I would make. Like, #1, it unilaterally disqualifies the theory of evolution without any quantification.

4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution. - Nope. Haven't done a poll, wouldn't expect this to be true anyway. I don't believe evidence points to anything else as strong.\

5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution. - Another example of a member of the scientific community trying to strengthen their case by distorting arguments against them.

6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? - How lame. One answer that comes immediately to mind is that we don't occupy the same environments. This explains why there are no neanderthals around. No respectable scientific creationist will make this argument. However, the author's analogy of child to adult is equally lame. Children will inevitably become adults. Humans will not inevitably become monkeys.

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth. - This can go either way. Proof of that is in the immediate paragraph alone, the author uses words like "remains much a mystery", "could have", "hint that", "might have", and "may solve". However there is no need to criticize and attack each other on this one. Let the record show that science does not have the answer at this point, and may never.

The author's only statement of rebuttal states, "If life turns out to have a nonevolutionary origin, evolution would be confirmed by many macroevolutionary studies..." Uh.... huh?

8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance. - I'm surprised the author doesn't use anthropic principles as defense. But his defense isn't much better...

"natural selection can push evolution in one direction and produce sophisticated structures in surprisingly short times." ---ahhh the million dollar question. Prove it. And I don't mean "thats what we observe in the fossil record" - thats circular reasoning...

And using another analogy with statistics involved doesn't do us any good. There's no basis for any correllation, for probabilities related to the topic at hand, we could be talking about something thats ten orders of magnitude less likely...

9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa. - The rebuttal is true, and this is not an argument I'd make.

10. Mutations are essential to evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. - I agree with the rebuttal. However, mutations can produce freaks. Some freaks have an advantage over others. But to create a new species? Okay. Due to a mutation I grow an eye out the back of my head, giving me an advantage. Am I ever going to start a new species? And even if I do create a race of three eyed people, is it a new species because I can still copulate with regular humans?

11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life. - Theological wishful thinking, and not a valid argument.

12. Nobody has ever seen a new species evolve. - Due to time, this isn't a valid agument either. But here's the meat of it... Finally a discription of the core question - what defines a species? The author admits that scientists often disagree on the definitionof a species... I would think thats kind of important when you're studying evolution of SPECIES.

Really, a good definition for species would be the boundary that physically prevents two organisms from bredding sucessfully. But obviously scientists cannot use this because it would eliminate intermediate organisms from evolving from past speciesA to future speciesB. So I guess now their definition is what's "refusing" to breed with the other. The bottom line - a fruit fly is still a fruit fly, a finch is still a finch. There's bound to be specialization, preference to certain niches, enviroonments, climates, etc. Just look at humans for such variations. But in the end, we're all still humans.

13. Evolutionists cannot point to any transitional fossils--creatures that are half reptile and half bird, for instance. - Fossils initially tabbed as transitional have all had those tabs removed, AFAIK. Neanderthals, once considered human ancestors, are now believed to have branched off entirely... And Archaeopteryx is a joke. I forget the years, but it was first discovered in Bavaria I believe, in rocks that were younger than those occupied by dinosaurs. Fair enough. There was also another species with feathers that were found in rocks older than dinosaurs... What about that? Let's have the scientific community agree that Archaeopteryx is the ancestor of birds before coming to Creationists. I assure you they have not agreed...

14. Living things have fantastically intricate features--at the anatomical, cellular and molecular levels--that could not function if they were any less complex or sophisticated. The only prudent conclusion is that they are the products of intelligent design, not evolution. - Another wishful thought by Creationists. Whether true or not, its not scientific, and I won't go there.

15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution. - A moot point to argue. The conclusion will never be definitive. I hold this to be self-evident, and as such, will claim that pure science will require a certain amount of faith, not conincidentally, so does a belief in my Christian God.

Most of you have already made up your minds, which is fine. But ask yourself some questions.

1. Why can't we clearly define a species? Is it to allow the scientific community leeway in coming up with their theories?

2. Can we quantify the probability of proteins coming together randomly to produce self-replicating complex single celled organisms? And even though microevolution does exist - what does it prove? If I put on a coat to escape the cold, does that make me a higher being and preclude me from copulating from lower oder species?

3. There are dozens of constants that exist in the universe - the gravitational constant, the mass of a neutron, the charge of an electron, the weight of a hydrogen atom, the ratio of helium atoms to hydrogen and a whole bunch of other ones - if any of which had changed by even the smallest fraction, would render this universe unlivable.

The anthropic principle states that we exist, therefore things had to have turned out the way they did, luckily. Yet the chances of these constants turning out as they did are astronomically small.

How often do you win the lottery?
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
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parts 3 and 4 of the show EVOLUTION are on tommrow at 8pm-12am on PBS :)


funny how busmaster using all his skills of reason in attempts to rebute the theory of evolution falls back upon magic and a magical diety as his alternative answer.
 

Murphyrulez

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2001
1,890
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I heard a question asked once, "If you took apart your wristwatch, put all the pieces into a paper bag, rolled the top of the bag over, then shook the bag up, what are the odds that you could open the bag and your watch would be back in working order?'

Now replace that watch with the infinitely more complex human body, and tell me that some random chance events caused us to form?


 

Ramsnake

Senior member
Apr 12, 2002
629
0
0
Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
I heard a question asked once, "If you took apart your wristwatch, put all the pieces into a paper bag, rolled the top of the bag over, then shook the bag up, what are the odds that you could open the bag and your watch would be back in working order?'

Now replace that watch with the infinitely more complex human body, and tell me that some random chance events caused us to form?

and so ur point is against or for evolution?